Regarding Knight and Itwillend

[Mr Cheese]

Thats fine i think that orthodox jews have in some ways a deeper understanding about judiasm so thats actualy a plus in my books.

I find the "only we are correct" attitude to be distateful and down right arrogant...

but then that is the danger of any form of extremism, although as a born again christian your extremism is similar in mindset I would think

 

[Harmonious]

I find the "only we are correct" attitude to be distateful and down right arrogant...

but then that is the danger of any form of extremism, although as a born again christian your extremism is similar in mindset I would think

I imagine that is fair enough, but what would YOU call it when one group of Jews still practice what our grandparents, our great-grandparents, and any number of ancestors practiced, and fight for the right to maintain that which they learned that God told the Jews to do while in the Desert all those years ago, and other Jews abandon those practices?

 

[gwk230]

what would YOU call it when one group of Jews still practice what our grandparents, our great-grandparents, and any number of ancestors practiced, and fight for the right to maintain that

Sad. Sad because it is what is written from Elohim that tells you what needs be done and not by the traiditions of men.:yes:

which they learned that God told the Jews to do while in the Desert all those years ago,

So they were told.

and other Jews abandon those practices?

They finally woke up to the truth.

 

[Harmonious]

Sad. Sad because it is what is written from Elohim that tells you what needs be done and not by the traiditions of men.:yes:

YOU say that they are the traditions of men. We understand that these are the traditions that God handed us at the same time as He handed us the Written Law.

So they were told.

They finally woke up to the truth.

Fair enough. You have the right to your opinion. But that is all that it is. Nothing more.

 

[gwk230]

YOU say that they are the traditions of men. We understand that these are the traditions that God handed us at the same time as He handed us the Written Law.

It your understanding as far as you have been told. :yes:

Fair enough. You have the right to your opinion. But that is all that it is. Nothing more.

Same as yours.

 

[Harmonious]

It your understanding as far as you have been told. :yes:



Same as yours.

Fair enough.

 

[gwk230]

I wonder how it is that if it is so fair for others to have a difference of understanding like myself from so called orthodox jews but for those that were like them and then decided another understanding that they then are shunned and ridiculed and no longer considered their own blood? Kinda silly to say its fair enough when it doesn't feel all that fair to those that have a different understanding. Be it of mine, yours or anyone elses understanding. They may still be trying to praise and worship Yah. We all were created by Yah and Praise you Yah!!!!!!! that he is of no respector of persons.

 

[Harmonious]

I wonder how it is that if it is so fair for others to have a difference of understanding like myself from so called orthodox jews but for those that were like them and then decided another understanding that they then are shunned and ridiculed and no longer considered their own blood?

Who says we shun and ridicule other Jews, and say they are no longer our blood?

Some people do, but that isn't universal among Orthodox Jews. Your assumption is unfair in the extreme.

Kinda silly to say its fair enough when it doesn't feel all that fair to those that have a different understanding.

They are still beloved Jews, even if I think they are wrong. (Unless they adopt a different religion, in which case they are not to be treated as Jews, but that doesn't mean they are subject to being ridiculed.)

Be it of mine, yours or anyone elses understanding. They may still be trying to praise and worship Y-. We all were created by Y- and Praise you Y-!!!!!!!

In theory. Some Jews are not interested in serving God. Some Jews are. All I know is that some Jews aren't doing what God commanded. I never said anything about their motives.

that he is of no respector of persons.

In your theology, maybe. That line means nothing to me, though.

 

[Heneni]

I find the "only we are correct" attitude to be distateful and down right arrogant...

but then that is the danger of any form of extremism, although as a born again christian your extremism is similar in mindset I would think

Listen cheese man, with all 'due' respect. I never said everybody else is wrong. I said ORTHODOX jews in my opinion if I had to wade throught the christians the cheese men and the GNOSTICS have PROBABLY got more of a clue about traditional JUDIASM than other.


Thanks for your time.


Heneni

 

[Mr Cheese]

I imagine that is fair enough, but what would YOU call it when one group of Jews still practice what our grandparents, our great-grandparents, and any number of ancestors practiced, and fight for the right to maintain that which they learned that God told the Jews to do while in the Desert all those years ago, and other Jews abandon those practices?

Well actually according to my research, your practises only go back about 200 years...by this I mean the "Orthodox" movement is only a few centuries old. Although I understand the claims of practises going back to Moses.

I would say other Jews are actually more Jewish than your group is. Why? Because they adapt. Jews have adapted and changed at all times. The orthodox movement in all its various guises essentially seeks to solidify and make Judaism largely into an unevolving enitity, and we all know what happend to the dinosaurs. The orthodox movement seeks to revive a golden age that really never existed...

Extremism of any kind is dangerous, fanaticism leads to all kinds of social and biological problems...Jews have been persecuted for thousands of years, supposedly. Why then actively seek to form a Ghetto... a closed off group that is insular and practically if not literally despises outsiders? I guess human beings like their groups.

The danger is when one worships their religion and not God. But then for many religion is as much if not more so, a form of living than worship of the divine.

In the end I could actually care less about orthodox Jews, its your choice. My problem is the need to assert negativity towards others...because of their inferiority. Frankly I find it offensive; but then it is a key part of any fanatical group.

 

[gwk230]

Who says we shun and ridicule other Jews, and say they are no longer our blood?

　
I didn’t put any names forth cause I figure if anyone thought it of interest that they could themselves search it out.
　
I have read from so called jews here that say such things that if they stop observing judaism that they are no longer jews. That is being shunned and to hear such statements is ridicule.
　

Some people do, but that isn't universal among Orthodox Jews. Your assumption is unfair in the extreme.

　
I didn’t claim it was the whole of orthodox judaism. Though it seems to be predominate amongst them other than that of the other sects of judaism. Stating such things and making one feel in this manner of being ridiculed is unfair and extreme. All I did was call a spade a spade.
　

They are still beloved Jews, even if I think they are wrong. (Unless they adopt a different religion, in which case they are not to be treated as Jews, but that doesn't mean they are subject to being ridiculed.) In theory. Some Jews are not interested in serving God. Some Jews are. All I know is that some Jews aren't doing what God commanded. I never said anything about their motives.

　
All you know is what you have been told. For you to make such statements as ……
　

I am well aware that not all Jews follow the Torah, and though it saddens me to know that there are Jews who opt NOT to be circumcised or not to circumcise their sons, they are still beloved Jews.

　
And………
　

However, if people in general ask about how Jewish law operates and wishes to understand it from a historical perspective, or even a "strict" perspective of people who take these commandments seriously, I think my perspective works.

　
Shows that you yourself have put your own thoughts and feelings on another individual as to the way you see it and therefore have put either respect, or no respect, on that individual. Its called ridicule and further more follows along the definition of bigotry.
　

In your theology, maybe. That line means nothing to me, though.

　
This is well shown by your own actions. You are correct about one thing though, it is a part of my understanding.
　
2Ch 19:7 Now therefore let the fear of YAH be on you; take heed and do it: for there is no lawlessness with YAH our Elohim, nor respect of persons, nor taking of bribes.

 

[Harmonious]

Well actually according to my research, your practises only go back about 200 years...by this I mean the "Orthodox" movement is only a few centuries old. Although I understand the claims of practises going back to Moses.

Actually, no. The practices have been around since the Torah was given. The NAME Orthodox, and the consideration that adhering to Jewish law thusly was a movement only goes back about 200 years. However, your research doesn't seem to cover the responsa from hundreds of years ago. It doesn't cover all of the Biblical and legal commentary that has been written thousands of years ago.

Rambam, who you quoted earlier, was around far longer than 200 years ago, and he wrote one of the most known codifications of Jewish law.

Jews have been living like this for a long time. As I said, only the name has existed for the past 200 years or so. And then again, it is only in Ashkenazic circles. Among Sephardim, there was never a break or division to call themselves Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, other. Sephardic Jews may not behave differently (in practice) than their Ashkenazic brethren, in any of the movements, but if they are as connected to their community as I know them often to be, they would never call themselves by these names. They are all Sephardic, with various levels of observance and belief, more often than not (from my observation), they respect Jews who do more. They don't disrespect those who do less, but they have deep respect for those who do more.

I would say other Jews are actually more Jewish than your group is. Why? Because they adapt. Jews have adapted and changed at all times. The orthodox movement in all its various guises essentially seeks to solidify and make Judaism largely into an unevolving enitity, and we all know what happend to the dinosaurs.

Interesting perspective. I imagine you have never been invited to a medical ethics symposium in Yeshiva University, or anything of that sort that shows how Jewish law that was given all those years ago, are used to understand how to deal with and interpret creations of the modern world.

Orthodox Jews are among doctors, lawyers, computer programmers, and any number of other things of that nature. I'm not sure what you mean about "unevolving entity," unless you are referring to the fact that we cling tenaciously to the traditions that were handed down since Moses, even as we live every-day lives.

The orthodox movement seeks to revive a golden age that really never existed...

Clearly, you haven't met many Orthodox Jews.

Extremism of any kind is dangerous, fanaticism leads to all kinds of social and biological problems...Jews have been persecuted for thousands of years, supposedly. Why then actively seek to form a Ghetto... a closed off group that is insular and practically if not literally despises outsiders? I guess human beings like their groups.

Interesting. Not really correct, but interesting.

The danger is when one worships their religion and not God. But then for many religion is as much if not more so, a form of living than worship of the divine.

Interesting. It strikes me that you are not actually aware of the learning that Orthodox Jews do, such that we connect to God, and not just "sticking to the old and the ancient."

You are stuck on stereotypes, and have no idea who Orthodox Jews really are.

In the end I could actually care less about orthodox Jews, its your choice. My problem is the need to assert negativity towards others...because of their inferiority.

You know, I never once referred to people who were NOT Orthodox Jews as inferior.

Asserting that they aren't following the Torah, yup. Not sticking to tradition, and rejecting it, absolutely. But inferior? Never.

Yet You call Orthodox Jews inferior. Who has the need to assert negativity towards others?

Frankly I find it offensive; but then it is a key part of any fanatical group.

Whatever.

 

[Harmonious]

　
I didn’t put any names forth cause I figure if anyone thought it of interest that they could themselves search it out.
　
I have read from so called jews here that say such things that if they stop observing judaism that they are no longer jews.

Jews who take up a different religion are not to be treated as Jews, true. But that doesn't mean that anyone is permitted to be rude, crude, or obnoxious.

If a Christian came into a shul and wanted to be called to the Torah, it wouldn't happen. So a Christian started as a Jew. Being called to the Torah is an honor given to Jews who WANT to be Jews.

And it doesn't matter whether they call themselves Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, or unaffiliated. Jews are Jews, even when they DON'T follow the Torah. As long as they aren't following someone else's religion.

That is being shunned and to hear such statements is ridicule.

If someone chooses a different religion that Judaism, I would say that they excluded themselves from the Jewish congregation.

No one else excludes them.

I didn’t claim it was the whole of orthodox judaism. Though it seems to be predominate amongst them other than that of the other sects of judaism.

Not really. They are just usually more visible.

I know of a Chasidic Rabbi who wanted to hold services on Friday night for the Jewish students on a local college campus. It wasn't exclusionary, but open. (It is general practice for this to happen, and it wasn't a religious college where the presence of a different member of clergy would have been out of place.) And the Reform Jews had the Rabbi ejected because he "threatened their Reform-ness."

Who was doing the excluding here?

Stating such things and making one feel in this manner of being ridiculed is unfair and extreme. All I did was call a spade a spade.

Not really.

All you know is what you have been told. For you to make such statements as ……
　

　
And………
　

　
Shows that you yourself have put your own thoughts and feelings on another individual as to the way you see it and therefore have put either respect, or no respect, on that individual. Its called ridicule and further more follows along the definition of bigotry.

Is it really? Following the Torah and doing the commandments are pretty standard affairs. There might be different customs, but people who DO them and take them seriously...

Wait. That is considered a bigoted statement. Well, if you decide NOT to keep Shabbat, apparently SOMEONE decided that set of commandments was not important.

Refraining from circumcision is rejecting one of the first commands God gave to Abraham.

If you believe in the commandments, and you work hard to keep them to the best of your ability, I would imagine that is what it means to "take them seriously."

The fact that other Jews have disposed of the tradition... doesn't make them less as people, but it DOES make them less observant of Torah law.

If acknowledging this is ridicule and bigotry, I wonder what you would ACTUALLY call real hatred and bigotry.

This is well shown by your own actions. You are correct about one thing though, it is a part of my understanding.

As you say it. But that doesn't say very much for your understanding, if acknowledging the simple truth is considered hatred and bigotry.

No one says that Jews who are less religious are less worthy human beings. No one says they are less worthy Jews. (Well... There are Jews who do indeed say that. I wouldn't, nor would any other Orthodox Jews I'm acquainted with.)

But to say that people don't take the commandments that I work hard to do as seriously as I do, and to say that pointing out this fact is ridicule and bigotry...

2Ch 19:7 Now therefore let the fear of Y- be on you; take heed and do it: for there is no lawlessness with Y- our Elohim, nor respect of persons, nor taking of bribes.

A better translation would be:
7. And now, may the fear of the Lord be upon you; observe and do, for with the Lord your God there is neither injustice, favoritism, nor bribe-taking."

 

[gwk230]

Jews who take up a different religion are not to be treated as Jews, true. But that doesn't mean that anyone is permitted to be rude, crude, or obnoxious.

So not treating someone with jewish blood running through their veins as not being jewish isn’t ridicule? What a joke. That’s blatant ridicule and bigotry.

If a Christian came into a shul and wanted to be called to the Torah, it wouldn't happen. So a Christian started as a Jew. Being called to the Torah is an honor given to Jews who WANT to be Jews.

If one is a jew then that one will always be a jew. One can’t choose to no longer be human or no longer to be of what he or she was born to be. It just is. Now, one can change their understanding but that doesn’t stop them from being what they are. Once a jew, always a jew. If you are a jew and believe in Sinaiticism then you are a jew by ethnicity but a Sinaiticist by understanding. Your still a jew.

And it doesn't matter whether they call themselves Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, or unaffiliated. Jews are Jews, even when they DON'T follow the Torah. As long as they aren't following someone else's religion.

I disagree. Funny you didn’t mention the Karaite jews or the Messianic jews. I guess you don’t believe they no longer have their parents blood running through their veins.

If someone chooses a different religion that Judaism, I would say that they excluded themselves from the Jewish congregation.

Well that is a different religion and not the fact that they are jewish. The man made religion of the judaic rabbinical traditions is not what makes one a jew. That happens through blood. Not understanding. Sure they have excluded themselves from those jews who follow such but they have in no way become less jewish.

No one else excludes them.

You just did with little more than what you think and feel is correct in your own eyes.

Not really. They are just usually more visible.

Yes really. They are just the majority in doing such garbage.

I know of a Chasidic Rabbi who wanted to hold services on Friday night for the Jewish students on a local college campus. It wasn't exclusionary, but open. (It is general practice for this to happen, and it wasn't a religious college where the presence of a different member of clergy would have been out of place.) And the Reform Jews had the Rabbi ejected because he "threatened their Reform-ness." Who was doing the excluding here?

If this actually happened I would have to say that as sad as it is, there are bad apples in all groups, as the sect of orthodox rabbinical judaism hasn’t the monopoly on such things. Just the majority.

Not really.

Again and again, yes really.

Is it really?

Really, really it is so really.

Following the Torah and doing the commandments are pretty standard affairs. There might be different customs, but people who DO them and take them seriously...

Yes they do, no matter which way they understand to follow them. Even if it isn’t in the same way as you do. To say they, who don’t observe them as you do, do not take them seriously is further ridicule and bigotry. Not to mention very. very self-righteous to say the least.

Wait. That is considered a bigoted statement. Well, if you decide NOT to keep Shabbat, apparently SOMEONE decided that set of commandments was not important.

Maybe they keep it in a different way than you would but they are, as far as their understanding allows them, following the Shabbat day as they know. You think that you and yours are so far more superior with your knowledge and all you know is what you have been told. That is very arrogant and sad to say the least.

Refraining from circumcision is rejecting one of the first commands God gave to Abraham.

Not if they are unaware and are not of that understanding. Maybe by what they are told they are under a different understanding than you. Just as you are told certain things that may or may not be true. And yet you say they are less righteous or zealous than you are by your own understanding. Again more ridicule and bigotry.

If you believe in the commandments, and you work hard to keep them to the best of your ability, I would imagine that is what it means to "take them seriously."

Just as anyone else that observes them in their understanding as it may be different than yours.

The fact that other Jews have disposed of the tradition... doesn't make them less as people, but it DOES make them less observant of Torah law.

See what I mean. Just who the hell are you to make such a statement. That’s a bigoted statement and THAT’S A FACT!!!! Not everyone wants to follow after the traditions of men. Maybe they are just as happy to stay within the guidelines of what is written and not dreamed up by men. Who are you to judge? Your no judge at all. Just like me, even you will be judged.

 

[gwk230]

If acknowledging this is ridicule and bigotry, I wonder what you would ACTUALLY call real hatred and bigotry.

What you have expressed here is no less serious as any other forms of hatred and bigotry. It’s just in a different form than most see from their TV that the media has thus sensationalized.

As you say it. But that doesn't say very much for your understanding, if acknowledging the simple truth is considered hatred and bigotry.

As you say it. The simple truth according to Harmonious. I wouldn’t hold much stock in what you think you know. And pushing such claims and judgments on those other than yourself isn’t very becoming of a true follower of Yah as I understand it. I’m quite pleased with my understanding as I know and accept that there are many people in this world who are different than me and look at things differently than I do even if we are under the same understandings as to the big picture. I do not say that they are any less in any thing just because they may not look or observe as I do. That is something that they will have to sort out for themselves with Yah. Just like you. I could care less if you decided to wear a cross around your neck or not. That’s you. If you were born of a jewish father then I would still consider you jewish but I would also respect the fact that you have taken on another understanding than that of the man made religion of rabbinical judaism.

No one says that Jews who are less religious are less worthy human beings. No one says they are less worthy Jews. (Well... There are Jews who do indeed say that. I wouldn't, nor would any other Orthodox Jews I'm acquainted with.)

That’s a contradiction of what you have been saying. “No one says they are less worthy jews” ???????

“As long as they aren't following someone else's religion.” What a joke. More bigoted statements.

But to say that people don't take the commandments that I work hard to do as seriously as I do, and to say that pointing out this fact is ridicule and bigotry...

From Wikipedia…….

A bigot is a person who is obstinately and irrationally, often intolerantly, devoted to his or her own religion, political party, organization, belief, or opinion, especially one who regards or treats those of differing devotion with hatred and intolerance.[1] Bigotry is the corresponding mindset or action.

I believe that I am not alone in the understanding that what you have so far stated about this issue falls well within the realms of the definition of not only hatred and ridicule but bigotry as well.

A better translation would be:

So you say, which that in and of itself has many holes in it from where I stand.

7. And now, may the fear of the Lord be upon you; observe and do, for with the Lord your God there is neither injustice, favoritism, nor bribe-taking."

Yes, And FAVORITISM is the exact same thing as having respect of persons. Maybe now it will mean something to you.
Oh, and since when did you guy’s stop putting the “-“ in god when posting stuff? Shame shame.

 

[TheKnight]

So who is this man that is going to set himself up in the temple and call himself god?

A fictional character like the rest of the fictional characters that the New Testament dreamers myth-ed up.

 

[Harmonious]

You know, gwk, you are the second person in two separate threads to say that the standard understanding of Jewish law and philosophy is bigoted because it does not agree with you.

The other person said that it was hateful to say that non-Jews are "not God's chosen." You are saying that it is bigoted to say that Jews who have forsaken their religion are not permitted to be treated as members of that religion until they return to that religion.

It is fascinating to me to see the hatred people give to Jews for simply being Jews, believing as Jews have for thousands of years. But what makes this even more interesting is that the people who are accusing the Jews (mostly me, this week) of bigotry and hatred are the people who ACTUALLY are doing the hating.

Hmm...

 

[Harmonious]

Oh, and since when did you guy’s stop putting the “-“ in god when posting stuff? Shame shame.

I only put a dash in God's name when people transliterate God's Hebrew name.

(When was this a "you guys" thing?)

 

[gwk230]

You know, gwk, you are the second person in two separate threads to say that the standard understanding of Jewish law and philosophy is bigoted because it does not agree with you.

The other person said that it was hateful to say that non-Jews are "not God's chosen." You are saying that it is bigoted to say that Jews who have forsaken their religion are not permitted to be treated as members of that religion until they return to that religion.

It is fascinating to me to see the hatred people give to Jews for simply being Jews, believing as Jews have for thousands of years. But what makes this even more interesting is that the people who are accusing the Jews (mostly me, this week) of bigotry and hatred are the people who ACTUALLY are doing the hating.

Hmm...

I hate those that show others hate by their blantant bigotry. You stated that a jew who no longer practices man made rabbinical judaism is not to be treated jewish anylonger. Thats blantant bigotry to the 10th power and you nor anyone else can deny such a profane and abominable act to commit on another person.

Am I showing hate? You darn toot'n I am for those who do such things. They are not of Yah. They are children of Helel.

 

[gwk230]

I only put a dash in God's name when people transliterate God's Hebrew name.
(When was this a "you guys" thing?)

I'm just wondering who else blasphemes the name of Yah? Only ones that change the name with dashes and such are all I know.