No. Non-believers don't expect proof. After all, we don't have "proof" that the Earth is round or that germs cause disease, either. All we want is some evidence.
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Rehash god/proof debate
- Thread starter Unveiled Artist
- Start date
Spirit of Light
Be who ever you want
Then you have to start practicing a spiritual teaching, because that is where the answers lay, and in the personal experience a practitioner is experiencing. A believer can not give the evidence to one who do not know what to look for (what you get from the spiritual teaching)
Brian2
Veteran Member
You want empirical evidence as if God is an object that can be measured and studied.
ratiocinator
Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Just some objective reason to distinguish a specific god-claim from just guessing or imagination, would help.
Spirit of Light
Be who ever you want
That reason will be different for each one of us who found a God and teaching we believe will bring us close to the God we follow and believe in. For me, the teaching in sufism gave me a lot deeper and maybe better answers than other spiritual teachings i believed in and followed in the past. would i advice others to do like i did? No. The path i taken through life is not for everyone to take. But it was the personal path i needed to take.
ratiocinator
Lightly seared on the reality grill.
If people feel the need to believe something and it helps them and does no harm to anybody else, then that's okay, but I'm not going to accept the objective reality of something without some objective evidence. I don't doubt that the belief in certain things helps some people in some ways but that doesn't tell me anything about the truth or otherwise of that belief - especially when contradictory beliefs seem to help different people, as you've pretty much said here.
Spirit of Light
Be who ever you want
Luckely for me, i am not here to harm or convert you
Feel free to be who you are and believe in what you feel is right for you
Brian2
Veteran Member
For me the history in the Bible is true and the reasons for saying it is not are,,,,,,,,,,much over-rated.
That historical basis can be considered objective reason to distinguish between different god claims by different religions.
Guessing and imagination can be seen in many religions that do not have that historical basis.
ratiocinator
Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Ignoring for a moment all the problems with it being history, even if it was, why would that mean that the god depicted is also real? It is also the case that the bible isn't even self-consistent, is riddled with contradictions, and contains no clear message.
I'm sure this will vary from person to person, but my general rule of thumb is this: if God is supposed to have at least as much impact on our lives and the world around us as the Moon does, I would expect at least as much evidence as we have for God as we do for the moon, in terms of both quality and quantity.
Sure, that would help... as long as the person could show that the thing changing their life is actually God and not just their belief in God (or the support they get from their church, etc.).
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
If a person was interested in spirituality as you understand it,would it be possible to give evidence to those with genuine interest?
Sometimes we may not discuss spiritual evidence for fear that others will discredit it rather than the inability to describe it.
Well, what about subconscious mechanisms? You are making the unwarranted assumption that we need to be conscious to remember things. For instance, once I dreamed of someone ringing at the door, while asleep, to find out, the morning after, that someone indeed rang at my door. My brain just constructed a model of the outside world while I was unconscious.
Isn't maybe something to keep into account before invoking the spiritual world?
Ciao
- viole
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
The problem as posed in the OP that the evidence is experiential.
So what evidence are you looking for and what exactly is it for?
I think it's more that if you can't explain your belief to someone else in a way that makes sense, then this is a big red flag that your belief probably doesn't make sense (barring things like language issues, of course).
Tiberius
Well-Known Member
Can you provide a proper source for one of these events?
Tiberius
Well-Known Member
If you claim that God interacts in any way with the real world, then surely these interactions can be measured, yes?
Tiberius
Well-Known Member
Then it's not objective, it's subjective, and no different to opinion.
Generally - with the exception of someone with language issues, as I mentioned in my last post - if someone has an inability to describe what they believe and why, I take this as a sign that their belief probably isn't well-founded.
... and rightly so, IMO.
ratiocinator
Lightly seared on the reality grill.
The problem with that is that you can't distinguish between the effects of the belief and the reality or otherwise of what is believed in (or other factors, like belonging to a church or other religious community).
I'm not looking for anything, I just note the absence of anything objective that can back up any of the various god(s) claims.