Religion and Atheism

[usfan]

I know God as being our genetic code's Creator.

..ok. thanks for sharing your opinions (which seem highly 'religious' to me).
Everybody gotta believe something..

 

[columbus]

Homogeneity of belief:

There is no God.

Why insert snide remarks about what i know or don't know? Why is that necessary?

Because you clearly don't understand atheism.

You misquoted me in an earlier post and gave me reason to think that you prefer to keep believing what you already do, regardless of what's true.
I get pretty sarcastic under those circumstances.
Tom

 

[Revoltingest]

Dang.
You don't know much about atheism.

In a sense, atheist is quite uniform, but only regarding atheism.
And as you say, outside of atheism, beliefs are quite diverse.

Chairman Mao and @Revoltingest are both atheists. But about all they have in common is penises.
Tom

But he had only one.

 

[ecco]

My emphases in the following...

I have no problem defining atheism as a 'religious' belief, by the common usage of the term. It is a philosophical opinion, and 'religious' applies.

re·li·gion
/rəˈlijən/
noun

1. the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.

religion


NOUN
mass noun

• 1The belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.
  
  

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What are the most widely practiced religions of the world?
The world's 20 largest religions and their number of believers are:

1. Christianity (2.1 billion)
2. Islam (1.3 billion)
3. Nonreligious (Secular/Agnostic/Atheist) (1.1 billion)
4. Hinduism (900 million)
5. Chinese traditional religion (394 million)
6. Buddhism 376 million
7. Primal-indigenous (300 million)
8. African traditional and Diasporic (100 million)
9. Sikhism (23 million)
10. Juche (19 million)
11. Spiritism (15 million)
12. Judaism (14 million)
13. Bahai (7 million)
14. Jainism (4.2 million)
15. Shinto (4 million)
16. Cao Dai (4 million)
17. Zoroastrianism (2.6 million)
18. Tenrikyo (2 million)
19. Neo-Paganism (1 million)
20. Unitarian-Universalism (800,000)

It relates to a belief about deities, and is a valid opinion.

Beliefs about, not beliefs in.

 

[usfan]

Because you clearly don't understand atheism.

You misquoted me in an earlier post and gave me reason to think that you prefer to keep believing what you already do, regardless of what's true.
I get pretty sarcastic under those circumstances.
Tom

Why are your opinions, 'true', but mine are beliefs?

How did i misquote you? I try to be careful, but perhaps i misunderstood. So sarcasm is ok for miscommunication?

 

[David T]

Is atheism a religion? It depends on context and definitions. Most atheists bristle at the suggestion that atheism is a religious belief, and go to great lengths to distance themselves from the term.

δεισιδαιμονεστέρους is the Greek word for 'religious', as used by Paul in his Athenian speech:

Paul then stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus and said: "People of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious. Acts 17:22

The root of this word is 'fear of the gods'.

Another greek word that is translated 'religion' is θρῆσκος, which also carries a sense of 'fear' or 'trembling' toward deities.

So an atheist, who does not believe in God, and presumably has no 'fear' of deities, would not be 'religious' under this definition and usage.

But in modern usage, and especially in legal and constitutional matters, atheism is considered a religious belief. It is protected under the first amendment, and nobody can be denied freedom of conscience, for their 'religious' beliefs. The supreme court has ruled that atheism is protected, as a religious belief, under the first amendment.

There is a phony narrative that confuses this issue: 'Christians have Religion! Atheists have Science!' This is an attempt to move the atheistic opinion/belief about the nature of the universe into a false dichotomy.. a 'religion vs science!' dilemma. But atheism is not 'science!', anymore than a theistic belief. It is an opinion about the nature of the universe. It is a philosophical belief, and is not grounded in empirical science.

I have no problem defining atheism as a 'religious' belief, by the common usage of the term. It is a philosophical opinion, and 'religious' applies. It relates to a belief about deities, and is a valid opinion.

To deny the 'religious' nature of atheism would remove it from protected status, under the first amendment. Businesses, govts, or other human institutions could deny access, if one insists on a positive religious belief in a deity.

So, why is acknowledging the religious nature of atheism a problem, for many atheists? Is it not just another opinion about the nature of man, God, and the universe?

"It is a philosophical opinion, and 'religious' applies"

The problem with that is lack of understanding of religion. Where did you get the idea religion is philosophical opinion? your experts are idiots. Oh from the horses mouth, religion itself.

You therefore only understand religion from it's it own statements and factually I would say depending on them for any clarity is questionable at best. The emperical evidence points to that.


A better way to frame it is religious people believe an infinite number angels can dance on the head of a pin atheists claim there is no proof and factually only a finite amount of angels can dance on the head of a pin. Which one is correct?

 

[usfan]

My emphases in the following...

Your dictionary definition is very limited, and does not come close to covering all contexts. Here is Merriam's:

religion
noun
re·li·gion | \ ri-ˈli-jən \
Definition of religion

1a: the state of a religious.. a nun in her 20th year of religion
b(1): the service and worship of God or the supernatural
(2): commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2: a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3archaic : scrupulous conformity : CONSCIENTIOUSNESS
4: a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith


Atheistic beliefs can certainly fall under some of these definitions, DEPENDING ON CONTEXT.

That was clear in the first post of this thread.

 

[usfan]

"It is a philosophical opinion, and 'religious' applies"

The problem with that is lack of understanding of religion. Where did you get the idea religion is philosophical opinion? your experts are idiots. Oh from the horses mouth, religion itself.

You therefore only understand religion from it's it own statements and factually I would say depending on them for any clarity is questionable at best. The emperical evidence points to that.


A better way to frame it is religious people believe an infinite number angels can dance on the head of a pin atheists claim there is no proof and factually only a finite amount of angels can dance on the head of a pin. Which one is correct?

Sheesh.. everybody's getting so testy, just about word definitions.. sorry to use these trigger words to provoke some people. Perhaps i should bow out, since emotion and indignation seem to accompany the opinions shared..

 

[David T]

Sheesh.. everybody's getting so testy, just about word definitions.. sorry to use these trigger words to provoke some people. Perhaps i should bow out, since emotion and indignation seem to accompany the opinions shared..

Well atheism and religion share a common misconception is all I said. Religion is not alone in being just a philosophical fantasy land, secularismis as deeply steeped in it.

So what you are seeing is valid and it's nonsense. It's like the question what is conciousness? Seems valid to all parties but it isn't. It literally is a symtom of , not a question about. Just like atheism in context to religion. They share certain assumptions but argue the details is all. I could say "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin"? Seems reasonable if you have certain assumptions and yet disagree on the quantity and validity of the others facts what ever may be presented as facts.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I don't see most atheists as 'belonging to a religion', like an institution, but neither are most theists. Lots of people who believe in God have nothing to do with religious institutions, so they would be just as 'non-religious', as an atheist.

Agreed.

It just seems to be an elitist definition, to call atheism, 'science!', and theism, 'religious!'

I'm not sure how often I encounter that definition. In fact, I don't think I've ever seen those terms defined that way.

We all have an opinion about the nature of God, man, and the universe. Why not have a common defining descriptor, like 'religious belief', or 'philosophical opinion'?

We can do, just as long as it's understood what people mean when they use their terminology.

 

[Augustus]

Atheistic beliefs can certainly fall under some of these definitions, DEPENDING ON CONTEXT.

All atheists hold ideological beliefs and all religions contain ideological components. Atheistic ideologies tend to contain 'sacred' beliefs (i.e. those of fundamental importance in underpinning their worldview) religions also contain sacred beliefs. These "sacred"/sacred beliefs are subject personal preferences not tangible realities.

Atheists hold "religious type" beliefs, and religious people hold religious beliefs.

You can draw many parallels between religious and atheistic ideologies.

That doesn't make atheism a 'religion' though, and calling it such doesn't really contribute anything to a discussion.

 

[Salvador]

My emphases in the following...


re·li·gion
/rəˈlijən/
noun

1. the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.

religion


NOUN
mass noun

• 1The belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What are the most widely practiced religions of the world?
The world's 20 largest religions and their number of believers are:

1. Christianity (2.1 billion)
2. Islam (1.3 billion)
3. Nonreligious (Secular/Agnostic/Atheist) (1.1 billion)
4. Hinduism (900 million)
5. Chinese traditional religion (394 million)
6. Buddhism 376 million
7. Primal-indigenous (300 million)
8. African traditional and Diasporic (100 million)
9. Sikhism (23 million)
10. Juche (19 million)
11. Spiritism (15 million)
12. Judaism (14 million)
13. Bahai (7 million)
14. Jainism (4.2 million)
15. Shinto (4 million)
16. Cao Dai (4 million)
17. Zoroastrianism (2.6 million)
18. Tenrikyo (2 million)
19. Neo-Paganism (1 million)
20. Unitarian-Universalism (800,000)

Beliefs about, not beliefs in.

My belief in us living in a simulated reality where we conscious beings are the simulated ancestors of futuristic post humans conducting an ancestral simulation is a religion somewhat comparable to Matrixism. There are very few followers of Matrixism.

 

[ecco]

Your dictionary definition is very limited, and does not come close to covering all contexts. Here is Merriam's:

religion
noun
re·li·gion | \ ri-ˈli-jən \
Definition of religion

1a: the state of a religious.. a nun in her 20th year of religion
b(1): the service and worship of God or the supernatural
(2): commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2: a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3archaic : scrupulous conformity : CONSCIENTIOUSNESS
4: a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith


Atheistic beliefs can certainly fall under some of these definitions, DEPENDING ON CONTEXT.

That was clear in the first post of this thread.

Of those 4, only the 4th could be stretched to possibly include atheists. Bottom line, most dictionary definitions disagree with you.

 

[Diamond]

Just wondered why does it matter?

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

why is acknowledging the religious nature of atheism a problem, for many atheists?

You're not acknowledging that atheism is a religion. You are claiming that it is. Atheism doesn't meet my definition of a religion, which includes one or more supernatural entities, or deities.

Is it not just another opinion about the nature of man, God, and the universe?

Atheism is the no answer to the question whether one believes in a god or gods. If that is a belief system or a religion to you, then we use those terms differently.

Is not believing in stamps, a belief?

Believing in stamps? Whatever you mean, it's not a belief system or a religion.

Why not be inclusive, with the rest of humanity, and embrace the beliefs/opinions as religious? Why the dread and fear of a term?

No dread or fear. As an atheist, I don't want to be grouped with the religious. I want to be recognized as somebody that learned to navigate life happily without religious beliefs such as a god belief. I consider that a positive achievement, and don't want to be grouped with those that are living a life that I don't want for myself.

I do not think atheism is a religion. However, I think it can be, and occasionally is practiced religiously.

Atheism isn't practiced any more than aleprechaunism and avampirism are. There are no responsibilities and no rituals to practice.

It just seems to be an elitist definition, to call atheism, 'science!', and theism, 'religious!'

Who's doing that?

Atheism isn't science. The former is the unbelief in gods, the latter a program for understanding physical reality. There's not much overlap there.

A belief system, or foundational belief provides the basis for most other beliefs, and colors one's outlook. A 'no God' opinion is just as significant to one's worldview as a 'God' belief, no?

My atheism is the basis of no other belief. Nor is it my worldview, which is ore accurately called secular humanism. The believer starts with his god belief and derives all else from that, but the unbeliever cannot conclude anything based on his unbelief.

Again, I point you to vampires and leprechauns. I presume that you are an aleprechaunist. Is that your worldview? Is it a foundational belief? How much of the rest of your belief set derives from that? Your position on democracy? Your position on global warming? Your feelings about anything else at all?

It's no different for the atheist, who is probably also an aleprechaunist. Shall we call that two religions?

Why should one opinion about the universe be labeled with some dismissive term, (religious!), but another be excepted?

Because one is faith-based, and we can dismiss claims made with insufficient support. What dismissive thing would you like to say about somebody telling you that he needs a sound reason to believe anything, and that he has not seen one regarding gods? Feel free to be dismissive about that if you can figure out how.

Dismiss what? My unbelief? My reasons for it?

Has the ambiguity and Orwellian redefinition of 'Religious!', rendered it useless, except as a pejorative?

Interesting that you would bring that up. Calling atheism a religion has precisely that effect. It renders the word synonymous with worldview. I already have a word for that - worldview. I choose to let religion refer to a subset of worldviews, those including deities. That's a group of people I have reason to refer to distinctly from those with naturalistic worldviews. There is no value to me in blurring distinctions there.

The supreme court has recognized atheism as a religion, for legal purposes.

American law is irrelevant to those living outside of its jurisdiction. And for those on American soil, it's mostly irrelevant as well, unless you're a secular humanist prisoner trying to sue for rights granted religious prisoners but not to you.

The Supreme Court also recognized that black people were only 3/5ths of a person. That didn't change biology.

Why are so many atheists afraid of the term, and react with indignation if their beliefs are called, 'religious!'?

Why do you keep returning to that fear meme? Can you not conceive of any other reason why atheist would demur at being called religious other than that we are afraid? You don't want to know my complete answer. You would not like it, and I don't want to offend you. Suffice it to say that when I think about being grouped in with the religious, fear is not my reaction.

So please drop the what are you afraid of meme.

'Religious!' no longer carries an exclusive 'God fearing' connotation. Buddhists and many religious beliefs do not 'fear God', or even acknowledge a singular Deity.

Atheism is the logical sensible presumption that an omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, highly benevolent supernatural deity really doesn't exist, unless proven otherwise.

That's very close to what I would say, but I would say that atheism is the logical and sensible presumption that there is no reason to believe that an omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, highly benevolent supernatural deity exists absent supporting evidence, and that what we have is actually contradicting evidence for the reason you suggested - the presence of gratuitous suffering in the world.

Why are there so many atheists, strongly presenting their beliefs, in a forum titled, 'Religious Forums?' Would that not be inappropriate, to camp in a theistic based forum?

We're welcomed here. Without us, Religious Forums wouldn't be half as interesting.

Would you rather they changed the name to Irreligious Forums? You'd still be welcome here either way.

Beliefs about suffering are a deflection, and have no bearing on the possibility of 'God/no God'. Suffering is not the cause of God, nor proof of His nonexistence.

To me, the theodicy problem rules out the possibility of a tri-omni god. It was done in antiquity :

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" - Epicurus - Greek philosopher, BC 341-270

 

[columbus]

OK, where do I get my tax benefits?

You start a church and keep all the money, without even reporting it much less paying any taxes.
Tom

 

[Subduction Zone]

Is not believing in stamps, a belief?

Opinions and beliefs is the issue, not activities.

How is atheism NOT a religious/philosophical belief? Isn't denying the existence of God, just another belief about God?

Hinduism
Buddhism
Islam
Christianity
Wiccan
Atheism
Rastafarian

Are these not all beliefs about the nature of the universe? Should not atheism receive protection and acknowledgment as a 'religious' belief?

I am sure that you have already been corrected on this, but nope, atheism is not denying the existence of God.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Why are your opinions, 'true', but mine are beliefs?

I am not sure about @columbus , but the beliefs I have I can support with objective evidence. I have not seen the theistic having the ability to do that.

 

[ecco]

I am sure that you have already been corrected on this, but nope, atheism is not denying the existence of God.

For some of us, it is.

 

[Altfish]

You start a church and keep all the money, without even reporting it much less paying any taxes.
Tom

Sounds like a plan.

Is it any wonder Trump got elected.