Religion and Atheism

[ecco]

Oh? Why is their evidence for Muhammad stronger than my evidence for Baha’u’llah?
Muhammad did not even write anything with his own pen.

Quran - Wikipedia
According to tradition, several of Muhammad's companions served as scribes and recorded the revelations.​

Much of the understanding of Bahai comes, not from the pen of Baha’u’llah but from Shogi Effendi.

Quran - Wikipedia
Muslims believe that the Quran was orally revealed by God to the final Prophet, Muhammad, through the archangel Gabriel (Jibril),[6][7] incrementally over a period of some 23 years, beginning on 22 December 609 CE,[8] when Muhammad was 40, and concluding in 632, the year of his death.

​

Who made revelations to Baha’u’llah? What revelations?

What is NOT subjective is that Bahaullah fulfilled all the Bible prophecies,

I believe we've been down this road before. You were not able to demonstrate any Bible prophecy fulfilled by Baha’u’llah.

 

[Truly Enlightened]

I never made a fact claim, I made a belief claim. I believe it is the truth, but it is not a claim to truth because I cannot prove it – to anyone else except myself.

No, it is logical reasoning because IF God is omnipotent God could make it possible for us to prove He exists – if God wanted to do that. Since God has not made that possible, I conclude that God does not want us to be able to prove He exists. That is my rationale although I cannot prove it is true.

I do not know why God is avoiding human detection but I surmise that God is avoiding human detection because God does not want to be detected, since as I said above, an omnipotent God could make it possible for us to detect Him IF He wanted to.

Those have easy answers. I know all of that because it was revealed by Baha’u’llah, et al.

Again, you are absolutely wrong that I WANT to believe. I tried to escape belief in God for 42 years, that’s how I know that. That is the evidence. But I finally decided it was not in my best interest to keep trying to run away from God, so here I am. But I’d much rather be sunning myself on a beach somewhere than living on forums 24/7.

These are beliefs that I believe are true, they are not claims. I cannot claim what I cannot prove as a fact.

I do not know how God properties interact with anything...
That is quite an interesting theory you have. Can you prove it? If not it is just a belief.
You sound like you think you know more about God than I think I know.

The Revelation of Baha’u’llah is the evidence that God exists, as far as I am concerned. YMMV.

I walked right into that trap and I do not care. You call it terminating a pregnancy, I call it taking a life, because life comes into being at the moment of conception. That is a scientific fact, not just a religious one. I am talking about routine pregnancies, not pregnancies where the mother’s life is endangered or pregnancies where the child would have serious deformities or mental handicaps. Abortions might be warranted under those circumstances.

Are you going to argue that this baby would not get a good home with a family that desperately wants a child but cannot conceive? Nine months of being pregnant is a minor inconvenience for some woman who slipped up and slept with a man without using foolproof birth control. Moreover, had she been married she would probably not be needing to get an abortion, but that opens up a whole different can of worms. I do not believe in premarital sex. I have always been this way, long before I had a religion or believed in God. This has nothing to do with “religious fanaticism.”

I was once a teenager and I never had sex, not until I got married at age 32. My husband did not have sex until he married me at age 42. It is possible, but this society is so morally depraved that it is not very common to wait till marriage to have sex. Teenagers can control themselves. I was a hippie and around free love so I had plenty of chances to have sex, I simply declined because I knew it was wrong. I was not raised in a religious home so my morality did not come from religion.

No, consensus does not prove that God exists, so God does not exist because most people believe in God. There is a red car in my driveway because there is a red car in my driveway, not because I believe there is a red car in my driveway. If I denied that there was a red car in my driveway, it would still be there.

God exists because God exists. If nobody believed in God, God would still exist. I know this sounds like a claim, but it is a belief, a belief I know is true.

I don’t know why some atheists want to make me into an atheist, I have no interest in making any atheists into believers.

Let me start with your last comments first. The existence or NON-EXISTENCE(left out) of God is not proven by any consensus, period. The red car in the driveway, or its denial, are very poor analogies to infer that a God exists. Comparing a physical anything, when evidence can easily be found to falsify a claim of existence, can't be compared to an imaginary thing, where no evidence can be found to falsify its existence. At least you now agree that it doesn't matter how many people believe in a fairy tale, it will never make the fairy tale true or real. For that we need clear evidence. The problem is, that because there are so many people believing in these fairy tales, that our Government seems to placate, and pander to their fears and concerns. This effects my personal rights and freedoms. Our moral code is hardwired into our genes by evolution. not religion. This code is only distorted by religion. Do you think that it is religion that keeps other species from destroying themselves? If you believe that religious beliefs are not adult fairy tales, then prove, or demonstrate that they're not? Instead of back-peddling, and piling one excuse on top of another to avoid giving a direct answer. I personally do not care what you want to believe in. It is because of our brain's ability to compartmentalize information, and cognitive dissonance, that even very smart people can convince themselves that s**t is good enough to eat. The human condition itself, is not logical.

Either you believe that God exists, or you know that God(s) exists. To claim that you believe you know that God exists, is oxymoronic, indefinite, and obfuscating. A belief requires no evidence, but confirmation bias does. Unfortunately this evidence is also biased. Especially, in the absence of critical thinking. Do you believe that God exists? Or, do you know that a God exists? Atheists do not believe that they know that God does not exist. They simply know that they have no evidence to believe that a God exist. Simply provide the evidence, and Atheism would disappear. Also, your subjective struggle with religious dissonance(crisis of faith) is NOT objective evidence. It is just another testimonial. If you really want to live in a Theocratic country, there are 7 to choose from. Give it a try and see how you like it. Just leave mine alone.

Initially all women had the right to have an abortion in all 50 states. The 14th Amendment protects women from any unreasonable control by the Government(including religious views). It is the 9th Amendment that uses the "due process" clause of the 14th Amendment(right to privacy), to protect a pregnant woman's liberty to choose whether or not to have an abortion. There have been many changes and restrictions on abortions, as our moral reality evolves. Most of the abortion laws speak about the foetus, not the embryo. This life(which you have not defined yet) is an embryo, until the 11th week of pregnancy. So, up to 3 months(1st trimester) we are aborting an embryo, not a foetus. Clearly, your callous and insensitive concerns for the mental and emotional wellbeing, for those deciding to terminate their pregnancy, only highlights your level of social apathy and one-dimensional religious views. I can only hope that these draconian views will end where my rights begin. It now seems that religion has now encroached into the Alabama Abortion Laws. Abortion is now completely outlawed in Alabama. A true triumph for religious apathy, elitism, and intolerance. But who cares about the mother, or the mistakes made because of immaturity, hormones, and peer pressure? Who cares if rape, incest, or a failed birth control method were involved. Who cares about protecting the rights, privacy, and freedoms of all women? I guess that it is only the embryo's life that is more important than the mothers life, as we hypocritically gorge ourselves on hamburgers, ribs, and salads, right?
https://abort73.com/abortion_facts/us_abortion_law/

I can certainly prove my theory. Would you like to go fact for fact? Although anyone that answers my questions with, "Those have easy answers. I know all of that because it was revealed by Baha’u’llah, et al.", is not really being serious, even to themselves. Oh, unless the woman is a corpse, there is no "fool-proof" method for not getting pregnant during sex.

​

 

[wandering peacefully]

Who is to say that no theists have those new pathways? I probably have an entire trail system in my brain…. I LIVE in that space, questioning all the “god stories” in the Bible.

I am tired of telling other believers that I DO NOT believe in those stories and explaining why.

I never mentioned Christianity nor the Bible. So I'm not sure why you mentioned it. Some good and fascinating tales and positive morals are shown in all holy books. That doesn't mean I reject God/gods because of the mythical or historical themes and tales.

I have zero qualms about you or anyone else believing in whatever God, gods, religions, beliefs, mystical experiences you desire. Unless they intrude on my personal morals or ethics. But that is not the point of either neural pathways nor atheism.

(You), cannot understand my viewpoint as an a-theist, because you do not think in those terms. You may "think" you understand, but you cannot "know" what it is to NOT believe in super natural, omni, universal anything. It is not in your wiring.

 

[Windwalker]

Atheism has no world view; has no actions or rituals, no sanctified places, morals or ethics. All atheism is is a lack of belief in gods.

It is a view of Ultimate Reality as one which lacks what others call God. It is weighing in on the same question. It is philosophical, and concerns the ultimate nature of Reality.

Therefore, it is a religious question, view, and belief. It is not a scientific view of reality. Science doesn't ask or answer those types of questions. Atheism reaches beyond science and evidences into belief and faith. It is a belief about the ultimate Truth of Reality.

Honestly, I've never understood why other Atheists were so sensitive about that. I had no problem accepting that as truth when I used to self-identify as atheist. Why not call it what it is? It's not a "lack of belief" at all. It is a belief about Ultimate Truth. Wear it proudly, damn it.

 

[Unity of Mankind]

I don't get my morals from religion, or from whatever is meant by spiritual philosophy. I would call it moral philosophy, and for me, it was derived through the application of rational ethics - that is, reason applied to empathy - to the utilitarian position that the summum bonum is that which produces the most opportunity for the greatest number of people to pursue life liberty, and happiness as they conceive of them. With that goal for society in mind, guidelines for behavior thought to best facilitate that goal are tested and tweaked as appropriate.

No holy books or spirits involved.

In regard to what you call “moral philosophy” . . .”derived through the application of rational ethics” is that what you see going on generally in the world? What countries or how many in the world do you see . . . “the utilitarian position that the summum bonum is that which produces the most opportunity for the greatest number of people to pursue life liberty, and happiness as they conceive of them” . . . or . . .”With that goal for society in mind, guidelines for behavior thought to best facilitate that goal are tested and tweaked as appropriate.” For example, I don’t see any testing or tweaking going on in North. Korea.

 

[Unity of Mankind]

Do you often reflect on the nature of pixies and fairies?

Should you survive physical death it is my guess you may still be trapped into equating the real God to man’s imagination, especially, like the animal, you have only perceived in an earthly life what you could perceive through your physical senses. Of course you won’t be able to explain why you still have consciousness.

 

[Trailblazer]

Apparently, you misread my comment. When do you think "Then I became aware..." means?

Sorry, I did not read that carefully enough. Now I understand.

Not just Christians in general but Baptists, Mormons, Catholics, Sunnis, Orthodox Jews, etc. All the specific versions of religious beliefs.

Yes, I agree. It is true of all religions because children are very vulnerable.

There are always exceptions. I know some siblings who were raised in a very fundamentalist family. Some are fundamentalist, some middle of the road and one atheist.

That’s true, children can wind of taking very different paths. That did not happen in my family, but I think we were the exception. Only rarely do we see a whole family becoming Baha’is as adults, unless they were raised by Baha’i parents(s).

Your conversion sounds like a group conversion.

Not at all. I do not do anything in groups. I make all my own decisions and I do everything alone. When I found out about the Baha’i Faith I immediately started reading about it and two weeks later I became a Baha’i. I never really got very involved with other Baha’is, I always did everything alone.

I also think differently than most Baha’is, about God, belief and non-belief, and I think that attitudes towards nonbelievers needs to change... Why do you think I am called Trailblazer?

Baha’is are enjoined to work in groups, but since it is okay with Baha’u’llah, it is okay with me to work alone, at least for now.

“Be not grieved if thou performest it thyself alone. Let God be all-sufficient for thee. Commune intimately with His Spirit, and be thou of the thankful. Proclaim the Cause of thy Lord unto all who are in the heavens and on the earth. Should any man respond to thy call, lay bare before him the pearls of the wisdom of the Lord, thy God, which His Spirit hath sent down unto thee, and be thou of them that truly believe. And should any one reject thine offer, turn thou away from him, and put thy trust and confidence in the Lord, thy God, the Lord of all worlds.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 280

 

[Trailblazer]

But why, after years of no beliefs and then "finding god" would you want to try to disbelieve in god?

Thanks for the question.

I know I should be grateful that I was able to find God so easily in Baha’u’llah when other people have been searching for years and years to no avail. I do not know why I ever deserved to be that fortunate.

I do not want to disbelieve in God, but sometimes I wish I could because of the conflicts such a belief engenders. Believers who do not bother to think do not seem to have these conflicts – they “just believe.” But I am a critical thinker so I cannot accept beliefs that do not makes sense to me.

We are told in scripture that God is All-Loving but I am not convinced that God is All-Loving because the evidence does not support such a belief, given how much human and animal suffering there is in the world. Frankly, I think that God allowing suffering in this world without giving us a clear picture of what the afterlife will be like is unfair.

I already know all the religious apologetics about suffering and how it is good for spiritual growth, I do not need to hear them again.

I do not believe in God to get love because that is a selfish reason. The reason I believe in God is because of Baha’u’llah and what He wrote about why we should believe in God.

I do not feel a need for God’s love on a personal level, but it is problematic if God does not care about human and animal suffering, because such a God is not worthy of belief or worship. Aside from scripture, where is the evidence that God is loving?

My husband says I would be better off being an atheist if I do not believe God is loving but I tell him I cannot “become an atheist” because I believe that God exists. We have this conversation often. I tell him that Baha’u’llah never said that God is loving all the time, sometimes God has wrath when it is warranted. I am okay with God having wrath when it is justified but it is the suffering in the world I have a problem with.

I could go on and on about this but now is not the time. A few weeks ago I wrote a thread entitled “God and Suffering” but I have been keeping it in abeyance because I was too busy to field the posts and also because I got involved on other threads. But I will post it when the time is right.

 

[Trailblazer]

On the news, they talk about the miracle that the hiker was found or that someone survived a tornado. Of course, they never take about God's miracles when the little girl's body is found. Then it's all about God needing another angle.

How true, and this is what I was getting at in my last post.
Do believers even bother to try to make sense out of anything, or do they rather “just believe?”

Sadly, God does not have another angle.
It is the believers who need to look at things from another angle.

 

[Trailblazer]

More specifically, the Bible stories are not even on a par with comic book stories.

Could you elaborate upon that?

 

[Trailblazer]

Why would anyone not want to believe in God? I wouldn't mind living in paradise. I wouldn't mind getting 72 virgins.

I am just going by what I have heard atheists say. There are some atheists on this forum who have said they do not want to believe in God and I have an atheist friend on my forum who says he does not want to believe in God. Most of these atheists have given reasons why they do not want to believe in God, mainly the fact that they have no NEED for a God in their life.

You would live in Paradise but you won’t get 72 virgins, sorry.

Besides, what God are you referring to? Shiva, Allah, Buntu, Athena?

There is only One God. It is the One True God that Baha’u’llah described, the God Muslims refer to as Allah.

“Regard thou the one true God as One Who is apart from, and immeasurably exalted above, all created things. The whole universe reflecteth His glory, while He is Himself independent of, and transcendeth His creatures. This is the true meaning of Divine unity. He Who is the Eternal Truth is the one Power Who exerciseth undisputed sovereignty over the world of being, Whose image is reflected in the mirror of the entire creation. All existence is dependent upon Him, and from Him is derived the source of the sustenance of all things. This is what is meant by Divine unity; this is its fundamental principle.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 167

“O people! I swear by the one true God! This is the Ocean out of which all seas have proceeded, and with which every one of them will ultimately be united. From Him all the Suns have been generated, and unto Him they will all return. Through His potency the Trees of Divine Revelation have yielded their fruits, every one of which hath been sent down in the form of a Prophet, bearing a Message to God’s creatures in each of the worlds whose number God, alone, in His all-encompassing Knowledge, can reckon. This He hath accomplished through the agency of but one Letter of His Word, revealed by His Pen—a Pen moved by His directing Finger—His Finger itself sustained by the power of God’s Truth.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 104

 

[Trailblazer]

“Oh? Why is their evidence for Muhammad stronger than my evidence for Baha’u’llah?
Muhammad did not even write anything with his own pen.”

Quran - Wikipedia
According to tradition, several of Muhammad's companions served as scribes and recorded the revelations.

Much of the understanding of Bahai comes, not from the pen of Baha’u’llah but from Shogi Effendi.

That is not true at all. Shoghi Effendi was simply one of the appointed interpreters of the Writings of Baha’u’llah. Abdu’l-Baha was the other appointed interpreter.

Baha’is are free to read the Writings of Baha’u’llah and try to understand them for themselves. Baha’u’llah wrote 15,000 Tablets, and the ones that have been translated into English are in the Baha’i Reference Library online.

The Works of Bahá'u'lláh

Quran - Wikipedia
Muslims believe that the Quran was orally revealed by God to the final Prophet, Muhammad, through the archangel Gabriel (Jibril),[6][7] incrementally over a period of some 23 years, beginning on 22 December 609 CE,[8] when Muhammad was 40, and concluding in 632, the year of his death.

Who made revelations to Baha’u’llah? What revelations?

God made the revelations to Baha’u’llah through the Holy Spirit, just as God made the revelations to Muhammad through the archangel Gabriel. The Holy Spirit came to Muhammad through the archangel Gabriel just as the Holy Spirit came to Baha’u’llah through the Maid of Heaven. (It came to Jesus through the Dove and to Moses through the Burning Bush.)

“O KING! I was but a man like others, asleep upon My couch, when lo, the breezes of the All-Glorious were wafted over Me, and taught Me the knowledge of all that hath been. This thing is not from Me, but from One Who is Almighty and All-Knowing. And He bade Me lift up My voice between earth and heaven, and for this there befell Me what hath caused the tears of every man of understanding to flow.” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 57

“God is My witness, O people! I was asleep on My couch, when lo, the Breeze of God wafting over Me roused Me from My slumber. His quickening Spirit revived Me, and My tongue was unloosed to voice His Call.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 90

“And whenever I chose to hold my peace and be still, lo, the voice of the Holy Ghost, standing on my right hand, aroused me, and the Supreme Spirit appeared before my face, and Gabriel overshadowed me, and the Spirit of Glory stirred within my bosom, bidding me arise and break my silence. If your hearing be purged and your ears be attentive, ye will assuredly perceive that every limb of my body, nay all the atoms of my being, proclaim and bear witness to this call: “God, besides Whom is none other God, and He, Whose beauty is now manifest, is the reflection of His glory unto all that are in heaven and on earth.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 103-104​

By the way, there was no couch where Baha’u’llah received His revelations. That is simply a metaphor to mean He was just laying around and the breeze of God caught Him unawares.

I believe we've been down this road before. You were not able to demonstrate any Bible prophecy fulfilled by Baha’u’llah.

No, I do not think we are talking about the same thing. I am not talking about what Baha’u’llah prophesied (predicted). I am talking about Bible prophecies that were fulfilled by the Coming of Baha’u’llah.

Do you want me to demonstrate some of the Bible prophecies fulfilled by Baha’u’llah?

 

[Trailblazer]

Let me start with your last comments first. The existence or NON-EXISTENCE(left out) of God is not proven by any consensus, period. The red car in the driveway, or its denial, are very poor analogies to infer that a God exists. Comparing a physical anything, when evidence can easily be found to falsify a claim of existence, can't be compared to an imaginary thing, where no evidence can be found to falsify its existence.

I should have said if there is a red car in my driveway there is a red car in my driveway, not because I believe there is a red car in my driveway. If there is a red car in my driveway and I denied that there was a red car in my driveway, it would still be there.

I agree, with a couple of changes to your statement: Comparing a physical anything, when evidence can easily be found to falsify a claim of existence, can't be compared to anything such as God, where no evidence can be found to falsify its existence.

At least you now agree that it doesn't matter how many people believe in a fairy tale, it will never make the fairy tale true or real.

Conversely, it doesn't matter how many people do not believe that God is real, it will never make God unreal if God is real.

For that we need clear evidence.

There is no evidence for God that is clear to everyone, but the evidence we have is clear to almost everyone.

The problem is, that because there are so many people believing in these fairy tales, that our Government seems to placate, and pander to their fears and concerns. This effects my personal rights and freedoms.

I personally do not think that government should get involved in restricting personal rights and freedoms based upon religious beliefs.

Our moral code is hardwired into our genes by evolution. not religion.

Do you have any verifiable proof of that, scientific proof? It that was true, why are some people moral whereas others are immoral? Do you think we inherit morality from our parents? How then can we explain moral parents who have immoral children?

This code is only distorted by religion.

How do you think that happens?

Do you think that it is religion that keeps other species from destroying themselves?

No, but in the wild, other species destroy each other. Humans do not destroy themselves, they destroy each other because they lack morality.

If you believe that religious beliefs are not adult fairy tales, then prove, or demonstrate that they're not? Instead of back-peddling, and piling one excuse on top of another to avoid giving a direct answer. I personally do not care what you want to believe in. It is because of our brain's ability to compartmentalize information, and cognitive dissonance, that even very smart people can convince themselves that s**t is good enough to eat. The human condition itself, is not logical.

I cannot prove that religious beliefs come from a God. I can only provide evidence.

Conversely, it is because of our brain's ability to compartmentalize information, and cognitive dissonance, that even very smart people can convince themselves that there is no God. The human condition itself, is not logical. Then again, what is logical to one person is illogical to another person.

Either you believe that God exists, or you know that God(s) exists. To claim that you believe you know that God exists, is oxymoronic, indefinite, and obfuscating.Do you believe that God exists? Or, do you know that a God exists?

I do not believe I know, I believe and I know.
I believe because I cannot prove God exists.
I know because I am sure God exists, but I do not know in the sense you think.

I do not know in this sense...
Know: be aware of through observation, inquiry, or information.https://www.google.com/search

I know in this sense....
Know: to have information in your mind; to be aware of something: KNOW | definition in the Cambridge English Dictionary

Atheists do not believe that they know that God does not exist. They simply know that they have no evidence to believe that a God exist. Simply provide the evidence, and Atheism would disappear.

Hard Atheists also called positive Atheists do think they know that God does not exist.

However, most Atheists do not believe that they know that God does not exist. They simply know that they have no evidence to believe that a God exist. If they could procure the evidence they wanted, Atheism would disappear.

The problem is that the only evidence that is available from God is religion. It has always been this way ad for various reasons Atheists do not accept religion as evidence.

Also, your subjective struggle with religious dissonance(crisis of faith) is NOT objective evidence. It is just another testimonial. If you really want to live in a Theocratic country, there are 7 to choose from. Give it a try and see how you like it. Just leave mine alone.

I never claimed that my crisis of faith is evidence of anything. It is just my testimonial as you said. My religion does not impinge upon the government of this country, or any country. Baha’is are entirely non-political.

Initially all women had the right to have an abortion in all 50 states. The 14th Amendment protects women from any unreasonable control by the Government(including religious views). It is the 9th Amendment that uses the "due process" clause of the 14th Amendment(right to privacy), to protect a pregnant woman's liberty to choose whether or not to have an abortion. There have been many changes and restrictions on abortions, as our moral reality evolves. Most of the abortion laws speak about the foetus, not the embryo. This life(which you have not defined yet) is an embryo, until the 11th week of pregnancy. So, up to 3 months(1st trimester) we are aborting an embryo, not a foetus. Clearly, your callous and insensitive concerns for the mental and emotional wellbeing, for those deciding to terminate their pregnancy, only highlights your level of social apathy and one-dimensional religious views. I can only hope that these draconian views will end where my rights begin. It now seems that religion has now encroached into the Alabama Abortion Laws. Abortion is now completely outlawed in Alabama. A true triumph for religious apathy, elitism, and intolerance. But who cares about the mother, or the mistakes made because of immaturity, hormones, and peer pressure? Who cares if rape, incest, or a failed birthcontrol method were involved. Who cares about protecting the rights, privacy, and freedoms of all women? I guess that it is only the embryo's life that is more important than the mothers life, as we hypocritically gorge ourselves on hamburgers, ribs, and salads, right?
U.S. Abortion Law

I do not take the stand I do against abortion based upon religious views. I take it based upon my own sense of morality.

But who cares about the unborn child who never had a right to live? An embryo is a human life. This is not a religious view, it is a scientific fact.

“The conclusion that human life begins at sperm-egg fusion is uncontested, objective, based on the universally accepted scientific method of distinguishing different cell types from each other and on ample scientific evidence (thousands of independent, peer-reviewed publications). Moreover, it is entirely independent of any specific ethical, moral, political, or religious view of human life or of human embryos. Indeed, this definition does not directly address the central ethical question surrounding the embryo: What value ought society place on human life at the earliest stages of development? A neutral examination of the evidence merely establishes the onset of a new human life at a scientifically well-defined “moment of conception,” a conclusion that unequivocally indicates that human embryos from the one-cell stage forward are indeed living individuals of the human species; i.e., human beings.”
A Scientific View of When Life Begins

It really all boils down to selfishness, a teenager or adult woman who does not want to be “inconvenienced” for nine months. Back when I was a teenager there was no question as to what a girl would do if she got pregnant. She would have the child and usually adopt it out. My best friend in high school did this. But now it is easier to just get on the operating table and be done with it. Thank God there IS an afterlife. Abortion would be much worse if that was that baby’s only chance to life and it was taken away.

Oh, unless the woman is a corpse, there is no "fool-proof" method for not getting pregnant during sex.

Yeah there is, it is called abstinence. It is 100% effective.

Do you think that most unwanted pregnancies came about when a woman was using the most effective methods of birth control? I highly doubt that could be the case, given the number of abortions taking place in this country.

http://www.ashasexualhealth.org/pdfs/ContraceptiveOptions.pdf

 

[Trailblazer]

I never mentioned Christianity nor the Bible. So I'm not sure why you mentioned it. Some good and fascinating tales and positive morals are shown in all holy books. That doesn't mean I reject God/gods because of the mythical or historical themes and tales.

I mentioned the Bible because that is usually what atheists are referring to when they mention God stories.
So then what IS the reason you reject God/gods, because there is no evidence for their existence?

I have zero qualms about you or anyone else believing in whatever God, gods, religions, beliefs, mystical experiences you desire. Unless they intrude on my personal morals or ethics. But that is not the point of either neural pathways nor atheism.

Good, and I have zero qualms about you or anyone else NOT believing in whatever God, gods, religions, beliefs, mystical experiences I believe in.

And as has been sufficiently noted on this thread, it is the religious that impinge upon the atheists, not vice versa. Personally, I think that is just wrong, but I am also in a minority so I have “some” understanding of how it feels. What do you think, that Christians accept Baha’is? Only if we do not say anything.

On one Christian forum I no longer post on I was labeled a religious atheist because I do not believe in the Christian Trinity doctrine.

(You), cannot understand my viewpoint as an a-theist, because you do not think in those terms. You may "think" you understand, but you cannot "know" what it is to NOT believe in super natural, omni, universal anything. It is not in your wiring.

Likewise, (you), cannot understand my viewpoint as atheist, because you do not think in those terms. You may "think" you understand, but you cannot "know" what it is to believe in super natural, omni, universal anything. It is not in your wiring.

But that is okay. People do not all have to be wired the same in order to get along, not in my book. Variety is the spice of life.
I have more short circuits with other believers than I do with atheists, with only a few notable exceptions.

 

[RESOLUTION]

Is atheism a religion? It depends on context and definitions. Most atheists bristle at the suggestion that atheism is a religious belief, and go to great lengths to distance themselves from the term.


So, why is acknowledging the religious nature of atheism a problem, for many atheists? Is it not just another opinion about the nature of man, God, and the universe?

When it comes to religion and atheism it is about the belief or lack of belief in anything to do with religion and gods.


atheism

noun

1. disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.
   synonyms: non-belief, non-theism, disbelief, unbelief, scepticism, doubt, agnosticism, irreligion, godlessness, ungodliness, profaneness, impiety, heresy, apostasy, paganism, heathenism, freethinking, nihilism
   "the poet was accused of atheism and exiled"
2. atheist

noun

1. a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.
   "he is a committed atheist"
   synonyms: non-believer, non-theist, disbeliever, unbeliever, heretic, sceptic, doubter, doubting Thomas, agnostic, infidel, irreligious person, heathen, pagan, freethinker, libertine, nihilist.

religion
/rɪˈlɪdʒ(ə)n/

1. the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.
   "ideas about the relationship between science and religion"
   synonyms: faith, belief, divinity, worship, creed, teaching, doctrine, theology; More
   
   • a particular system of faith and worship.
     plural noun: religions
     "the world's great religions"
   • a pursuit or interest followed with great devotion.
     "consumerism is the new religion"

Sometimes the religious aspect of atheism could be seen in them seeing themselves as their own God and their own beliefs being their own system of faith. Man verses God. In history we have seen how men in power viewed themselves as gods and especially Pharaohs and even some Roman emperors. Maybe atheism best described as a belief in yourself being your own God and maker of your future. What is clear is that no human really has a say in their own real future otherwise most would not have been victims of the evil of men.

 

[Katzpur]

I also think differently than most Baha’is, about God, belief and non-belief, and I think that attitudes towards nonbelievers needs to change... Why do you think I am called Trailblazer?

Baha’is are enjoined to work in groups, but since it is okay with Baha’u’llah, it is okay with me to work alone, at least for now.

“Be not grieved if thou performest it thyself alone. Let God be all-sufficient for thee. Commune intimately with His Spirit, and be thou of the thankful. Proclaim the Cause of thy Lord unto all who are in the heavens and on the earth. Should any man respond to thy call, lay bare before him the pearls of the wisdom of the Lord, thy God, which His Spirit hath sent down unto thee, and be thou of them that truly believe. And should any one reject thine offer, turn thou away from him, and put thy trust and confidence in the Lord, thy God, the Lord of all worlds.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 280

Wow! These last three paragraphs really resonate with me. As you said, this makes you a "Trailblazer" and my similar feelings make me "Not your average Mormon."

 

[ecco]

It is a view of Ultimate Reality as one which lacks what others call God. It is weighing in on the same question. It is philosophical, and concerns the ultimate nature of Reality.

It has nothing to do with philosophy. Religions have to do with philosophy. Atheism does not. Do you believe in fairies and pixies? Is that a philosophical proposition? Do you base your disbelief in fairies and pixies on philosophy or science?

Therefore, it is a religious question, view, and belief. It is not a scientific view of reality. Science doesn't ask or answer those types of questions. Atheism reaches beyond science and evidences into belief and faith. It is a belief about the ultimate Truth of Reality.

What "ultimate Truth of Reality" are you talking about? I'm guessing that you want to go far beyond "is the universe the result of nature or the result of GodDidIt".

Honestly, I've never understood why other Atheists were so sensitive about that. I had no problem accepting that as truth when I used to self-identify as atheist.

Since you are no longer an atheist you shouldn't use phrases like "other atheists".

Why not call it what it is? It's not a "lack of belief" at all. It is a belief about Ultimate Truth. Wear it proudly, damn it.

Why would I want to wear your label? God and gods are no more real than fairies and pixies. They all come from the same source. They are the creations of man's imaginings.

 

[ecco]

Should you survive physical death it is my guess you may still be trapped into equating the real God to man’s imagination, especially, like the animal, you have only perceived in an earthly life what you could perceive through your physical senses. Of course you won’t be able to explain why you still have consciousness.

So, you've been dead and found out you still had consciousness. Well, if not personally, you must know someone who has. Alternatively, you went to a medium and she put you in touch with a dead person who still has consciousness.

If there is another reason why you would make such an assertion, I'd sure like to hear it.

 

[ecco]

When I found out about the Baha’i Faith I immediately started reading about it and two weeks later I became a Baha’i.

You went from being an atheist to believing in God and Messengers just byreading in two weeks?!?

 

[ecco]

On the news, they talk about the miracle that the hiker was found or that someone survived a tornado. Of course, they never take about God's miracles when the little girl's body is found. Then it's all about God needing another angle.

How true, and this is what I was getting at in my last post.
Do believers even bother to try to make sense out of anything, or do they rather “just believe?”

Sadly, God does not have another angle.
It is the believers who need to look at things from another angle.

Sorry, that was supposed to be "angel" not "angle".