Religion and God

[Katzpur]

What if ritual is nearly absent? What if there's no baptism, no eucharist, no mikveh, no circumcision, no ceremonial washing, no bows or prostrations, no altar, no liturgy? Can religion be reduced to something along the lines of mindfulness and compassion and still be a religion? I think it can.

I think it can, provided it acknowledges a "God" of some sort. Otherwise, I see it as a group of people seeking mindfulness and compassion. I can't help, for instance, but see prayer as a part of religion, and if half the congregation doesn't believe in a Higher Power, there is no point in prayer. But maybe I've just been too sheltered to be able to see the opposite point of view on this issue. I don't necessarily think of rituals as being a requirement, but I do see religion as needing to be "God-centered."

 

[Quiddity]

I think it can, provided it acknowledges a "God" of some sort. Otherwise, I see it as a group of people seeking mindfulness and compassion.

Katz, your PM is full. Get back to me.

 

[Hacker]

I think it can, provided it acknowledges a "God" of some sort. Otherwise, I see it as a group of people seeking mindfulness and compassion. I can't help, for instance, but see prayer as a part of religion, and if half the congregation doesn't believe in a Higher Power, there is no point in prayer. But maybe I've just been too sheltered to be able to see the opposite point of view on this issue. I don't necessarily think of rituals as being a requirement, but I do see religion as needing to be "God-centered."

That's a good point Katz, I agree with you that everyone should at least agree to believe in a supreme being just because it can bring peace to one's life, but unfortunately that isn't the case, and I don't even go to a UU church, the principles just fit my current status of beliefs at the time.. BUt yes it is a very good point but do you think it would be fair to exclude them from the services? Do you think that EVERY person that goes to your church believes? I know of a couple who goes to Church every Sunday, the wife believes but the husband doesn't, it doesnt' bother me because what can I do to change it, and mind you this is a Catholic church. I'm sure there is millions of cases.

 

[Katzpur]

That's a good point Katz, I agree with you that everyone should at least agree to believe in a supreme being just because it can bring peace to one's life, but unfortunately that isn't the case, and I don't even go to a UU church, the principles just fit my current status of beliefs at the time.. BUt yes it is a very good point but do you think it would be fair to exclude them from the services? Do you think that EVERY person that goes to your church believes? I know of a couple who goes to Church every Sunday, the wife believes but the husband doesn't, it doesnt' bother me because what can I do to change it, and mind you this is a Catholic church. I'm sure there is millions of cases.

As I said, I am in full agreement with the vast majority of UU principles, and certainly do think they do a lot of good. I would never exclude anyone from a worship service of any kind, be it a UU service, a Catholic one or an LDS one.

I'm really strugglng with knowing how to say this without offending anyone, but to me, part of any worship service is the feeling one gets when surrounded by people who all share a common understanding of who God is (whether that understanding is accurate or not). I try to imagine sitting next to a self-proclaimed atheist during a very spiritual worship service and listening as a prayer is offered, thinking, "The guy next to me is thinking what a joke this all is." It just wouldn't be the same as if I were sitting next to someone whose feelings were more like mine. My brother-in-law is an atheist and my sister is agnostic, and I would very much love to see them attend a worship service of any kind.

All I'm trying to say is that, to me, religion ought to be about God. If it's not, and it's a social organization made up of people who may very well be as loving, compassionate, and giving as anybody else. But it's still a social organization.

 

[Hacker]

As I said, I am in full agreement with the vast majority of UU principles, and certainly do think they do a lot of good. I would never exclude anyone from a worship service of any kind, be it a UU service, a Catholic one or an LDS one.

I'm really strugglng with knowing how to say this without offending anyone, but to me, part of any worship service is the feeling one gets when surrounded by people who all share a common understanding of who God is (whether that understanding is accurate or not). I try to imagine sitting next to a self-proclaimed atheist during a very spiritual worship service and listening as a prayer is offered, thinking, "The guy next to me is thinking what a joke this all is." It just wouldn't be the same as if I were sitting next to someone whose feelings were more like mine. My brother-in-law is an atheist and my sister is agnostic, and I would very much love to see them attend a worship service of any kind.


All I'm trying to say is that, to me, religion ought to be about God. If it's not, and it's a social organization made up of people who may very well be as loving, compassionate, and giving as anybody else. But it's still a social organization.

Okay, your entitled to your own opinion, even though I disagree because I think unity in worship amoung various beliefs is a wonderful thing, but I guess it's different since you are very devoted to your religion which is great and I wish that I can relate to one specific belief(one religion) but I can't.

 

[Booko]

I'm really strugglng with knowing how to say this without offending anyone, but to me, part of any worship service is the feeling one gets when surrounded by people who all share a common understanding of who God is (whether that understanding is accurate or not). I try to imagine sitting next to a self-proclaimed atheist during a very spiritual worship service and listening as a prayer is offered, thinking, "The guy next to me is thinking what a joke this all is."

I've always assumed that there's something UUs have in common, like UU principles, that functions as God would for you and me, in that it unifies people.

All I'm trying to say is that, to me, religion ought to be about God. If it's not, and it's a social organization made up of people who may very well be as loving, compassionate, and giving as anybody else. But it's still a social organization.

And yet, there are Asian religions, like Mahayana Buddhism, that don't do God, or at least, you might say a personal God is not really relevant to them. They're still bound together, though, if nothing else in the teachings of the Buddha.

In the West we have a tendency to see God as personal, while in East the focus is more on the transcendent. I believe that God is both, and both focuses have their use for us.

Just because you and I have that Western tendency to think of God in more personal terms doesn't mean there aren't other equally true views in religion that work for others.

 

[mingmty]

I don't think any religion is about searching for or finding God. I think it is about us and the relationship that we develop with either the Image of God that we create or that comes to us when we already have found God, or with the world at large as understood from our perspective. Religion defines who we are and our place in the nature of things.

:bow:

 

[Katzpur]

Okay, your entitled to your own opinion, even though I disagree because I think unity in worship amoung various beliefs is a wonderful thing...

Actually, so do I. One of the neatest worship services I've ever been to was a joint LDS/Catholic service here in Salt Lake. I know that a lot of people would be amazed that such a service would ever take place, but it did, and it was beautiful. I just sat there the whole time thinking, "I bet God is SOOOO happy right now, looking down on this scene!" (It wasn't a Catholic Mass or an LDS Sacrament Meeting; it was mostly a tribute to an outstanding member of each congregation and a religious musical program presented by a choir made up of individuals from both faiths.)

I guess what I'm trying to say is that this event didn't strike me as illogical at all. There we were, in roughly equal numbers, Latter-day Saints and Catholics all joining together and focusing on our similarities instead of our differences. So, I guess, in a way I can see where you're coming from. (Jeeze, I'm having a hard time expressing myself, which is kind of a weird experience for me! )

...but I guess it's different since you are very devoted to your religion which is great and I wish that I can relate to one specific belief(one religion) but I can't.

Yeah, that's a big part of it. I really am very commited to my beliefs and for someone who isn't, that probably is kind of hard to relate to.

I'm just doing my darndest here to express my feelings honestly, but without offending anybody. I hope I'm not blowing it too awfully bad.

 

[Katzpur]

I've always assumed that there's something UUs have in common, like UU principles, that functions as God would for you and me, in that it unifies people.

And yet, there are Asian religions, like Mahayana Buddhism, that don't do God, or at least, you might say a personal God is not really relevant to them. They're still bound together, though, if nothing else in the teachings of the Buddha.

I see what you are saying, but they are at least united through the teachings of a spiritual leader. It's not as if a whole bunch of people with totally different beliefs got together and identified themselves as "a religion." But again, if good things come from such a group of people coming together, what they want to call themselves is immaterial. If they like the term "religion," who am I to object.

 

[lilithu]

Most would agree that adhereing to religion is not required for searching and/or finding God*, but does having a religion require that you search for God?

In other words, can a religion be about something other than this search for God?

Is a religion not a religion if it does not require a searching and/or finding God?

What about Buddhism?

 

[Sunstone]

Most would agree that adhereing to religion is not required for searching and/or finding God*, but does having a religion require that you search for God?

In other words, can a religion be about something other than this search for God?

Is a religion not a religion if it does not require a searching and/or finding God?


*I use God here as it is the most commonly understood term, but insert your own concept of what that means, (Divine Being, Enlightenment, Creator, Mystery of Life, Spirit of Life, Goddess, Ultimate Truth, etc.)

It seems to me there are animistic religions that have nothing to do with a search for deity, albeit they might or might not recognize a notion of deity. Furthermore, that seems significant to me because animism was almost certainly the earliest form of religion.

 

[finalfrogo]

Most would agree that adhereing to religion is not required for searching and/or finding God*, but does having a religion require that you search for God?

In other words, can a religion be about something other than this search for God?

Is a religion not a religion if it does not require a searching and/or finding God?


*I use God here as it is the most commonly understood term, but insert your own concept of what that means, (Divine Being, Enlightenment, Creator, Mystery of Life, Spirit of Life, Goddess, Ultimate Truth, etc.)

...Budddddhissssmmmm??...

 

[Green Gaia]

OK, I tried to get around the Buddhism answer by my footnote and explanation of the footnote that I suppose no one read.

Oh well, it seemed like a good question yesterday morning.

Some people do think that a belief in God in necessary for a religion, obviously I do not, I thought you all would know me well enough by now to know that I just didn't forget about Buddhism.

 

[Green Gaia]

I'm really strugglng with knowing how to say this without offending anyone, but to me, part of any worship service is the feeling one gets when surrounded by people who all share a common understanding of who God is (whether that understanding is accurate or not). I try to imagine sitting next to a self-proclaimed atheist during a very spiritual worship service and listening as a prayer is offered, thinking, "The guy next to me is thinking what a joke this all is." It just wouldn't be the same as if I were sitting next to someone whose feelings were more like mine.

I'm not sure how to explain to you why that isn't weird for UUs to do. You have your shared feeling of what God is, we have shared feelings and beliefs as well, they just may not be about God. If I may suggest, go visit a UU church and see it in action. I don't want to take this thread too far off topic by explaining shared UU beliefs, but please feel free to ask me privately or in the UU forum.

 

[Green Gaia]

I see what you are saying, but they are at least united through the teachings of a spiritual leader. It's not as if a whole bunch of people with totally different beliefs got together and identified themselves as "a religion." But again, if good things come from such a group of people coming together, what they want to call themselves is immaterial. If they like the term "religion," who am I to object.

We do have different, individual beliefs. But we have shared beliefs as well and that's what brings us together.

 

[lilithu]

OK, I tried to get around the Buddhism answer by my footnote and explanation of the footnote that I suppose no one read.

Oh well, it seemed like a good question yesterday morning.

Some people do think that I belief in God in necessary for a religion, obviously I do not, I thought you all would know me well enough by now to know that I just didn't forget about Buddhism.

I read your footnote Maize, but imo it did not sufficiently get around Buddhism. Lumping nibbana into the God category doesn't fully recognize the nature of nibbana.

Unless you don't really mean God in the conventional sense at all and are talking about "Ultimate Concern" as Tillich puts it - that highest aspiration that orients one's life. Can a religion be a religion if it does not have an Ultimate Concern? NO, imo religion must have an ultimate concern. But one person't ultimate concern is another person's foolishness and it certainly doesn't need a concept of God.

 

[Green Gaia]

Unless you don't really mean God in the conventional sense at all and are talking about "Ultimate Concern" as Tillich puts it - that highest aspiration that orients one's life. Can a religion be a religion if it does not have an Ultimate Concern? NO, imo religion must have an ultimate concern. But one person't ultimate concern is another person's foolishness and it certainly doesn't need a concept of God.

Ultimate Concern is a much better phrase than my fumblings, thank you.

 

[bigvindaloo]

I don't really think those are all the same thing, and of course you didn't say they were.

I don't see any particular reason why the religious impulse must focus on deity, and even agnostic, atheist, and apatheist religions need not see their quest in terms of absolutes. We can seek enlightenment, and still see enlightenment as a relative thing. We can seek truth without believing in Ultimate Truth. We can seek knowledge without believing in Pure Knowledge. We can have a sense of Mystery without believing that the Mystery is penetrable.

I have the feeling that accepting a particular line of religious thought as truth is somehow abdicating the responsibility felt amongst those that have faith/sense the mystery to investigate and penetrate it somehow. Isn't it a cop-out to assume the Mystery is impenetrable? Religious "brands" give someone something to hang their hat on. I think this is what religions are about. Yet this does not explain religious impulse as you put it which IMO is about explaining consciousness.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Is a religion not a religion if it does not require a searching and/or finding God?

See Tuan.