Religion and Ignorance

[islam abduallah]

But sadly it is all too common for people to "worship like the forefathers" while putting little thought into the reasons behind and for it. It would certainly be a good idea if people were to study their own scriptures and thought about what the message is without having it corrupted by those with a vested interest to do so.

i believe it's better not to study only their own scriptures, but to study all other scriptures and see by your own mind which one is true or if nothing

 

[Brickjectivity]

I was never religious, even when I was forced into acting the part as a small child. But I was always curious as to why people would believe something they could not possibly prove existed, but get all rational and superior with me when I insisted that mythical animals and the gods of the ancient peoples were just as eral as their god becuase I believed they were.







That's why I studied religions.

Oh! That's why you studied religions.

I still don't understand though how people of any religion can claim their particular set of believes has any more truth value than those of others. I guess knowing about the various belief systems is mostly an excercise in self-defense then

I'm not technically an atheist except in doubting moments, but I can contribute a little by putting forward my own theory. I think the ancients engaged in widespread cooperative discussion and study to understand the principle of rebirth -- a principle which they saw in absolutely everything in nature. They observed as we do that children rebel against their parents and that infinite generations of people go through the same troubles. The desire to change this is probably what fueled the perfection of writing technology in ancient Sumer! (my lay opinion) and also in China. Aside from the 'Ancients', however, every generation has the same problems, and the problems of the ancients is reintroduced and re-analyzed. It is easy to prematurely conclude that extreme belief or extreme religion is a 'Belief to explain thus & such'. No, actually it is about identity of the self. There are two headings: 1. Identity 2. Death.

• Identity The primary primary driver of all belief is always identity. 'Who am I?' is merely a sentence compared to identity. Identity is more fundamental than language and is a sucking vacuum that dwells in the curiosity and passions of every human. It controls language. It controls behavior, mood, appetite mental energy and most other complex behaviors. This is why you cannot argue with strong beliefs, and its why your mere disagreement is seen as a threat. It is because an individual's unstable sense of self has been poorly propped up, bandaged, and you are endangering the wound. Every belief has layers of causes, but the deepest cause has to do with child development. A newborn child has zero concept of self at all. The self then slowly forms. After childhood the perception of 'Who I am' develops right up to the last day of life. Babies first share mother's identity and think of themselves, their mother, and also the world as one person. All is one. This does not change for the first year, two or three; but pain forces a change. During this time babies have to come to terms with good vs. bad stimulation and mentally begin to divide their mother-self into two things one good one bad, two worlds. It isn't until later that they become aware that the world is separate from mother, that they are separate from mother and that the good and the bad are actually all part of a continuous experience. All of this underscores the extreme discomfort we feel when our identities are at stake. The search for identity is never ending. It is the driver of thoughts, the empty sync towards which the energy of our minds crawls and the seat of every belief.
  

• Death The identity loss we sense is aggrevated when we realize that our personalities will never be perfectly replicated, that our children will suffer and undergo trials we cannot predict. It nullifies what little identity we have. We want to be. We try to teach our children valuable lessons compressing as much information into them as possible, but it is never enough! There is, because of death, the sense that we have been wronged and blessed by the same universe, tortured in hot and cold water, which drives us further. We play tricks on children to force them to think and learn and to pass on learning. Above all we believe something good can happen in the future, and we live vicarously through the imagined futures (and histories) of other people.

 

[Simurgh]

Oh! That's why you studied religions.

Yes, I hardly ever do anything without a good reason. It does not pay to provide arbitrary answers and then expect me to just accept them at face value. Even as a kid I saw no merit in that.

I'm not technically an atheist except in doubting moments, but I can contribute a little by putting forward my own theory. I think the ancients engaged in widespread cooperative discussion and study to understand the principle of rebirth -- a principle which they saw in absolutely everything in nature. They observed as we do that children rebel against their parents and that infinite generations of people go through the same troubles. The desire to change this is probably what fueled the perfection of writing technology in ancient Sumer! (my lay opinion) and also in China. Aside from the 'Ancients', however, every generation has the same problems, and the problems of the ancients is reintroduced and re-analyzed. It is easy to prematurely conclude that extreme belief or extreme religion is a 'Belief to explain thus & such'. No, actually it is about identity of the self. There are two headings: 1. Identity 2. Death.

The motives/reasons you ascribe to ancient peoples hold true to this day, I think. I am not sure how far the cooperative thing went, considering not too many people had the time, and economic luxury to spend their time in idle discussion. But if you think of charismatic leaders today, you also see that it does not take a lot of discussion before one comes up with a scheme and convinces others of its merits—whatever they may be.

We know from archaeological record that people in the paleolithic already had a basic concept of “religion”, after all, they practiced burial rites, which indicates a belief in an afterlife. It appears that once you have modern humans, you already have a need to explain the OTHER.

With social stratification and hierarchical political systems, you then move away from the apparent belief in a creator god to a henotheistic worldview, which in some cases becomes polytheistic and in some moves from animism to monotheism and of course, tribal belief systems exist in concomitant ideational space as well. But even in tribal religious traditions you have the concept of a deus otiosus, this is not just characteristic of the more recent monotheistic faiths.

Identity

The primary primary driver of all belief is always identity. 'Who am I?' is merely a sentence compared to identity. Identity is more fundamental than language and is a sucking vacuum that dwells in the curiosity and passions of every human. It controls language. It controls behavior, mood, appetite mental energy and most other complex behaviors. This is why you cannot argue with strong beliefs, and its why your mere disagreement is seen as a threat. It is because an individual's unstable sense of self has been poorly propped up, bandaged, and you are endangering the wound. Every belief has layers of causes, but the deepest cause has to do with child development. A newborn child has zero concept of self at all. The self then slowly forms. After childhood the perception of 'Who I am' develops right up to the last day of life. Babies first share mother's identity and think of themselves, their mother, and also the world as one person. All is one. This does not change for the first year, two or three; but pain forces a change. During this time babies have to come to terms with good vs. bad stimulation and mentally begin to divide their mother-self into two things one good one bad, two worlds. It isn't until later that they become aware that the world is separate from mother, that they are separate from mother and that the good and the bad are actually all part of a continuous experience. All of this underscores the extreme discomfort we feel when our identities are at stake. The search for identity is never ending. It is the driver of thoughts, the empty sync towards which the energy of our minds crawls and the seat of every belief.

If you look at identity politics—individual or group—you can see that membership in any kind of ideological system is an important component of self- and group identity. We feel safest among those who share as much as possible—real or imagined—with us. When we can identify with another individual or group we validate our existence. Religious belief caters to that need.

Death

The identity loss we sense is aggrevated when we realize that our personalities will never be perfectly replicated, that our children will suffer and undergo trials we cannot predict. It nullifies what little identity we have. We want to be. We try to teach our children valuable lessons compressing as much information into them as possible, but it is never enough! There is, because of death, the sense that we have been wronged and blessed by the same universe, tortured in hot and cold water, which drives us further. We play tricks on children to force them to think and learn and to pass on learning. Above all we believe something good can happen in the future, and we live vicarously through the imagined futures (and histories) of other people.

Mircae Eliade stated that one reason we want to believe in the divine is that we fear chaos and oblivion the most. In other words, we do not want to believe that once we die, we are gone and nothing remains, that we are obliterated. Apparently, a divine order provides us with a sense of security. It seems that people want to believe that there is purpose and reason in their existence; that some god has some plan that makes sense out of existence.

We, who do not worry about death in the sense that we do not fear the nothingness that comes after, have no need of such a system. There is no doubt in my mind that many people manage to get through life only because they have hope that the afterlife will be more pleasant than the present. Religious traditions have a purpose within many people’s mental frameworks. Some of us just do not see any need in worrying about the nothingness that is death, we are fine knowing that we have purpose in life, death will take care of itself.

 

[Simurgh]

i believe it's better not to study only their own scriptures, but to study all other scriptures and see by your own mind which one is true or if nothing

That would be ideal, but many people only do so in order to discredit other people's beliefs and to present their own books as being superior in some fashion.

 

[islam abduallah]

That would be ideal, but many people only do so in order to discredit other people's beliefs and to present their own books as being superior in some fashion.

how ugly is that, if somebody not study the book to find the truth, the absolute truth so it's useless and not blame but himself in the other life when he burnt if he was wrong

 

[truthseekerTX]

The other question that came to mind is, why do religious people not make an effort to learn about the things the take as “fact/truth” and simply follow some people who declare that they know what they talk about in regard to dogma/doctrine of a given faith.

Does anyone want to provide some input here?

Too obvious to simply say, "Because if they looked for truth outside their own book, they would no longer believe"..?

 

[Simurgh]

Too obvious to simply say, "Because if they looked for truth outside their own book, they would no longer believe"..?

That’s a good one, yeah, sure let's belabor the obvious. :angel2:

I find it incredible that people follow some religious tradition just because they are born into it, and hardly give the actual belief system any thought as to the given body of doctrine, dogma, and rituals. Given that most religions originated some time ago, their practices are clearly grounded in attitudes, morality, ideals, norms and customs of a long gone era.

Sure, one can read scripture and try to learn something from it, but it’s all just interpretation of some old writings that are contextually divorced from current reality and reflect the ideals and attitudes of a time and place usually far removed from actual reality and have been reinterpreted by those in power to make sure that they stay there.

It’s just amazing to me that the same people who criticize everything the government does simply follow along with the program that their belief system spouts without any critical input.

 

[truthseekerTX]

That’s a good one, yeah, sure let's belabor the obvious. :angel2:

I find it incredible that people follow some religious tradition just because they are born into it, and hardly give the actual belief system any thought as to the given body of doctrine, dogma, and rituals. Given that most religions originated some time ago, their practices are clearly grounded in attitudes, morality, ideals, norms and customs of a long gone era.

Sure, one can read scripture and try to learn something from it, but it’s all just interpretation of some old writings that are contextually divorced from current reality and reflect the ideals and attitudes of a time and place usually far removed from actual reality and have been reinterpreted by those in power to make sure that they stay there.

It’s just amazing to me that the same people who criticize everything the government does simply follow along with the program that their belief system spouts without any critical input.

I was absolutely that person until a few months ago and I cannot give you a good reason. The best I've been able to come up with (for my own edification) is that it's just the nature of indoctrination --you are told these things from the time you are a child. Your parents believe it and everyone you are surrounded by believes it. You are told you have this Holy Book that has all the answers. You live your life thinking that every time you come upon a hardship the answer can be found in its pages. You have no 'reason' to go out and seek truth or question when you already think you know it all. Questioning and doubts go against your faith and you'll only invite heartache and give the place for the devil to tempt you and diminish your faith. Christianity doesn't encourage seeking information outside of the bible. It doesn't give you things like biology and physics, but when lots of science goes against or doesn't seem to be able to fit within the pages of The Bible then you tend to ignore it because your faith is paramount. You needn't concern yourself with worldly things.

I'm not saying they intentionally want to keep you stupid (though to an extent I suppose they do), but you have to read and learn things through your 'god glasses' so worldly knowledge doesn't corrupt your view of god and his design and plan for your life thereby causing you to have doubts.

That's just from my former Christian experience. But as soon as I realized it was all ridiculous superstition and (I believed) none of it was true, I was asking myself the same question. Why didn't I ever ask questions? How could I have been so gullible? When you think you know the truth, asking questions doesn't enter your mind. I guarantee you none of the people in my family or anyone I know understands where the Bible came from, who wrote it and how many translations it's been through.

 

[Freedomelf]

That's so true, Truthseeker. I spent 2/3 of my life as a Christian educator before I stopped cherry-picking the Bible and actually read it cover to cover. Once I did, I couldn't help but ask myself what I had been believing all my life. It was a soul-searching moment.

 

[Simurgh]

I was absolutely that person until a few months ago and I cannot give you a good reason. The best I've been able to come up with (for my own edification) is that it's just the nature of indoctrination --you are told these things from the time you are a child. Your parents believe it and everyone you are surrounded by believes it. You are told you have this Holy Book that has all the answers. You live your life thinking that every time you come upon a hardship the answer can be found in its pages. You have no 'reason' to go out and seek truth or question when you already think you know it all. Questioning and doubts go against your faith and you'll only invite heartache and give the place for the devil to tempt you and diminish your faith. Christianity doesn't encourage seeking information outside of the bible. It doesn't give you things like biology and physics, but when lots of science goes against or doesn't seem to be able to fit within the pages of The Bible then you tend to ignore it because your faith is paramount. You needn't concern yourself with worldly things.

I'm not saying they intentionally want to keep you stupid (though to an extent I suppose they do), but you have to read and learn things through your 'god glasses' so worldly knowledge doesn't corrupt your view of god and his design and plan for your life thereby causing you to have doubts.
That's just from my former Christian experience. But as soon as I realized it was all ridiculous superstition and (I believed) none of it was true, I was asking myself the same question. Why didn't I ever ask questions? How could I have been so gullible? When you think you know the truth, asking questions doesn't enter your mind. I guarantee you none of the people in my family or anyone I know understands where the Bible came from, who wrote it and how many translations it's been through.

Isn’t it also the case that besides obvious and calculated indoctrination, we absorb our religious views from the minute we are born, through our parents/family who are steeped in it and think nothing of it when they transmit their worldview—which includes religious traditions—to us as we are raised. Gramsci postulated that all societies exist within a hegemonic system. We are not prone to question what is “normal” to us. Many people thrive in the hegemonic context because it provides a sense of security when you do not run afoul of said system.

We assume that whatever our socio-cultural precepts happen to be are in fact normative for everyone. Only when we widen our horizons, do we learn that different societies have different value systems which they just as staunchly defend as being normative and thereby binding on all other groups as well. Many of us are content with the status quo and are willing to participate without challenging the given value system, of which religion is a part. in many cases, religious belief is a pre-digested palliative that is accepted because people either cannot, will not, or are afraid of questioning.

In any event, religions have structures that do not encourage questioning, that punish those who go against the norm and insist that only religious specialists can possibly know the will of their god/s. Mystic branches of given religious traditions are often less strict, since the emphasis is on a personal experience with the divine and teachers are only meant to show the way, not to push you onto it and dictate direction.

Only if there is sufficient cognitive dissonance, and the individual can get past their confirmation bias, does s/he question norms and given normative beliefs and behaviors. That takes a willingness to cut the ties that bind and suffocate, or at least the willingness to stand in opposition of family and one’s social group at the least.

..and then there are those of us who could never even see the purpose in religion. it’s function on a social level is easy enough to understand, but then so is the function that sports and other forms of entertainment have.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I think if you take any religion (eg. Christianity in one of it's flavours) you are going to have practicing and non-practicing members. I attended a Christening on the weekend where one of the Godparents complained the whole time about having to sit through a service, and what a load of bs it was. Yet they got up and recited the prayers, etc.

I would imagine that whilst they might identify themselves as a Christian, the Priest as the front of the service might have been a little more circumspect. In any case, there are a lot of people following religions to some minor degree because they were born into it, it's traditional, etc.

They would generally be the ones least informed about religion. I could never be a Godparent to a child, which is a discussion I have had with friends and family more than once. And in my own way, I think that shows MORE understanding and respect to their religion than they themselves would be showing by getting an atheist to stand up and lie in church...! There has been pressure at times, although I am lucky to have friends and family who respect my beliefs, even though they have very little comprehension of them I think.

Incidentally, the Priest went out of his way at the start of the service to welcome people of other faiths, and non-believers, and invited them to participate to the level they felt comfortable. I thought it was a nice touch, given the mixed crowd you always get to Christenings (or weddings, funerals, etc)

Anyways, I did have a point somewhere. Umm...oh...I don't think someone identifies themselves as atheist unless they have really thought it through. Not sure exactly what they would identify themselves as. Just someone who doesn't follow a religion, I guess. But to actually say 'I'm an atheist' is a sign of having considered the issues at hand. Perhaps comparing atheists to practising members of a religion would be a fairer comparison.

 

[Simurgh]

Isn’t it kind of hypocritical to be a godparent and then complain about the “god” part of it? If that person did not want to be recognized as such and fulfill the duties associated with it, or in this case sit through the ceremony, why not say no and let someone else do it.

I never had an issue identifying myself as an atheist, even as a kid when I was forced to participate in religious services by my mother. I did not ever even bother to pretend that I bought into that stuff or wanted to be there. Eventually she gave up, called me immoral and told me that I will burn in hell. And you know what? I actually do, now that I live in the desert and it often reaches over 110F and rarely ever cools down in the night.

………..maybe I should reconsider that whole notion of divine retribution……:faint:

Might be that those who consider themselves none-religious are agnostics. I agree with you that in order to consider yourself to be an atheist you need to have thought about the identity tag with some depth.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Isn’t it kind of hypocritical to be a godparent and then complain about the “god” part of it? If that person did not want to be recognized as such and fulfill the duties associated with it, or in this case sit through the ceremony, why not say no and let someone else do it.

Not kinda of hypocritical...TOTALLY hypocritical. But then again, the parents getting their kids baptised have similar views...lol

There is something seriously wrong when it's the atheist in the room wishing they'd be more respectful. But I think for these guys it's more about tradition and family than religion. I just wish they actually thought about things. If they did, no matter what they decided, I would respect it more.

 

[Simurgh]

Not kinda of hypocritical...TOTALLY hypocritical. But then again, the parents getting their kids baptised have similar views...lol

There is something seriously wrong when it's the atheist in the room wishing they'd be more respectful. But I think for these guys it's more about tradition and family than religion. I just wish they actually thought about things. If they did, no matter what they decided, I would respect it more.

doesn't that--among other things--reflect the fact that being an atheist forces you to confront the issues religions bring up. after all, we need to make a conscious choice to reject something that other people simply accept as part of their cultural identity.