Religion and Morality, Happiness, Hope and Love

[Gargovic Malkav]

I'd say that anybody who does evil habitually without remorse does not deserve my love. That is, I would not respect or laud evildoers because if I did, then I would be helping them to do evil. And that's one reason why religion's commanding people to love others unconditionally is a very bad idea.

When I see how you measure love, I think you actually have a lot in common with lots of religious folk I've seen.
But I've also seen religious folk express the unconditional love for others you speak of, these can be people belonging to the same religious group.

Same thing with non-religious folks.

This may kind of prove the point of the OP, but:

As far as I'm concerned, I can and do have morality without religion. In fact, I can argue that my secular morality is far better than any morality any religion offers. It is no secret that religions have committed atrocities as a result of their beliefs, and any moral person should not adopt that kind of ethics.

Imagine that you somehow made such a great and lasting impression on people, that lots of people will try to be like you.
People think your ideas are so deep and beneficial, that they think it's a good idea to make a creed and/or laws based on it.
What do you think is going to happen, especially over a timespan of multiple generations?

 

[RestlessSoul]

I try to treat others the same way, but I do it on my own without being commanded to do so. Do you need to be commanded to love?

I don’t need to be commanded, to try to do what is right. Right action is the key to good living, and it brings it’s own reward.

However, since I believe that God is Love, to love is divine, and every act of love brings us closer to God.

 

[Jagella]

Some people "need" religion to feel happy.

I think it may be more accurate to say that some people think they need religion to be happy. Many religious people will tell you they need their religion to be happy or at least will tell you they need their religion to avoid feeling miserable and hopeless. They could be wrong, and the truth is that they might be quite content without religion. They've just never tried going without their religion.

 

[RestlessSoul]

I think it may be more accurate to say that some people think they need religion to be happy. Many religious people will tell you they need their religion to be happy or at least will tell you they need their religion to avoid feeling miserable and hopeless. They could be wrong, and the truth is that they might be quite content without religion. They've just never tried going without their religion.

You are making assumptions on other people’s behalf here, I think. Like many people, I have tried the way of no faith, and the way of faith, and I know which works for me.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

How do you see this quote?

"You belong to the world of purity, and are not content to live the life of the animal, spending your days in eating, drinking, and sleeping. You are indeed men! Your thoughts and ambitions are set to acquire human perfection. You live to do good and to bring happiness to others. Your greatest longing is to comfort those who mourn, to strengthen the weak, and to be the cause of hope to the despairing soul. Day and night your thoughts are turned to the Kingdom, and your hearts are full of the Love of God. Thus you know neither opposition, dislike, nor hatred, for every living creature is dear to you and the good of each is sought. These are perfect human sentiments and virtues. If a man has none of these, he had better cease to exist. If a lamp has ceased to give light, it had better be destroyed. If a tree bear no fruit, it had better be cut down, for it only cumbereth the ground." ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Paris Talks, p. 112

To me it is saying we practice virtues for Love.

Simply for a person of Faith, God is all the Attributes and it is to those Attributes we submit.

Regards Tony

@Jagella

Just in case you would like to offer a reply, I will post it again.

Regards Tony

 

[sayak83]

When the religious aren't admonishing unbelievers to believe in the God and miracles of their religion, they might ask unbelievers to consider the importance of the morality, happiness, hope, and love offered by their religion. For Christians, they have the Ten Commandments and the Sermon on the Mount to guide morality, the happiness and sense of hope that results from their doctrine of salvation, and the love of both neighbor and enemy taught by Jesus. So aside from God and miracles, they can offer important reasons to believe.

As far as I'm concerned, I can and do have morality without religion. In fact, I can argue that my secular morality is far better than any morality any religion offers. It is no secret that religions have committed atrocities as a result of their beliefs, and any moral person should not adopt that kind of ethics.

Yes, I think it's fair to say that religion can bring happiness to some people some of the time. I've heard the stories of the happy-go-lucky Christian just loving life being a Christian. To me, though, there are more important things in life than happiness. As I have just implied, I value my morality very highly, and I won't throw it away in some effort to be happy. For that reason I cannot envy the happiness of a religious person any more than I can envy the happiness of a rapist as he violates his victim. Besides, I find the claim that religion brings lasting and meaningful happiness to just anybody to be very questionable. I've known plenty of miserable religious people.

But no matter how happy or unhappy religious persons may be, don't they have hope that some day they will be happy as their religion promises? For them they may have that hope, but it often comes at the expense of the hope of others and for others. For every person who thinks she is heaven-bound, she must believe that those do not share her beliefs are hell-bound. She may also find herself believing that her deceased family members and friends are in hell. What kind of hope is that?

Finally, does religion not teach love? Yes, but like the morality, happiness and hope offered by religion, there is a terrible downside to religious-based love. Such love is based in obedience to a God--one is to love not because others have earned one's love but because God says so. Such a love has little to distinguish it from hatred. Love should be free and granted to who deserves it. If God commands us to love him, then he obviously is not confident he can win our love. His love is like the love between despotic rulers and his subjects which is based on fear of punishment.

As a pluralist Hindu, I will be the last person to think that an atheist or a humanist cannot live a fulfilled and eudaimonic secular life.
But my beliefs are based fundamentally on my spiritual experiences and spiritual practice. If you think ontologically either this deeper "spiritual" realm exists as a substratum of us and of this world or it does not. My experiences have convinced me that it does. Hence my "faith", though the word is a misnomer here. I have seen something deeper, and it cannot be unseen anymore... bit like Plato's story of the cave.

If you have not seen it, no need to believe it or consider it in your life principle. All i will say is that it is worth seeing.

 

[joe1776]

...
I do not believe that we are to love unconditionally, although there are some members of my religion who would disagree with me since they will cite certain scriptures and interpret those scriptures differently than I do. The way I see it, if we love the deceiver, the liar or the evil doer we are condoning their behavior so we are not doing them any favors...

The goal, as Gandhi put it, is to hate the sin but love the sinner. The loving parent punishes out of love, for example.

 

[Jagella]

How do you see this quote?

"You belong to the world of purity, and are not content to live the life of the animal, spending your days in eating, drinking, and sleeping. You are indeed men! Your thoughts and ambitions are set to acquire human perfection. You live to do good and to bring happiness to others. Your greatest longing is to comfort those who mourn, to strengthen the weak, and to be the cause of hope to the despairing soul. Day and night your thoughts are turned to the Kingdom, and your hearts are full of the Love of God. Thus you know neither opposition, dislike, nor hatred, for every living creature is dear to you and the good of each is sought. These are perfect human sentiments and virtues. If a man has none of these, he had better cease to exist. If a lamp has ceased to give light, it had better be destroyed. If a tree bear no fruit, it had better be cut down, for it only cumbereth the ground." ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Paris Talks, p. 112

To me it's fairly standard religious rhetoric that mixes morality, wisdom, and the supernatural. Whatever in that quotation is good I already know, and I don't need anybody to explain it to me. Whatever in that quotation is unnecessary, I don't bother with. Whatever in that quotation is bad, I avoid.

To me it is saying we practice virtues for Love.

Are you saying you practice virtue to get love or to give it? To me, virtue and love are independent practices which is to say that I can love without being virtuous, and I can be virtuous without love.

Simply for a person of Faith, God is all the Attributes and it is to those Attributes we submit.

If God is attributes, then he isn't a person. Is that what you believe?

I can sum up my response to your post by saying that religion is simply unnecessary to live a full, meaningful life. The only exception I can think of are those who literally profit from religion by convincing other people that they speak for a God and that others should therefore do as they say.

 

[Jagella]

You are making assumptions on other people’s behalf here, I think.

You think correctly. It appears to me that those who insist they cannot be happy without their religion could get by without it. Many happy people are not religious. If they can be happy without religion, then why not everybody?

Like many people, I have tried the way of no faith, and the way of faith, and I know which works for me.

So were you miserable without your religion? How does your religion make you happy?

Allow me to conclude by making what I think is an important observation. Happiness appears to be very fleeting and very fragile. Things may be going well for you now, and therefore it is easy to be happy. If tragedy strikes, though, it may shatter your happiness in an instant. Also, happiness can be based on delusion, and when that bubble bursts and reality sets in, then happiness can be gone.

 

[Trailblazer]

Allow me to conclude by making what I think is an important observation. Happiness appears to be very fleeting and very fragile. Things may be going well for you now, and therefore it is easy to be happy. If tragedy strikes, though, it may shatter your happiness in an instant.

That is correct, but it applies to everyone, the religious believers as well as the non-religious believers and agnostics and atheists.

Also, happiness can be based on delusion, and when that bubble bursts and reality sets in, then happiness can be gone.

That is also true, but if it is a delusion who is going to burst that bubble and when will it burst?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Are you saying you practice virtue to get love or to give it? To me, virtue and love are independent practices which is to say that I can love without being virtuous, and I can be virtuous without love.

I see that Love is the foundation of all virtue and that all virtues emanate from Love. I see no virtues can exist without Love, love being the pure white light and the virtues the refracted light seen in all the colours of the rainbow.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

If God is attributes, then he isn't a person. Is that what you believe?

Correct God is Spirit, God is the force of Love, known by all the Attributes.

That Spirit appears from time to time in a chosen Messenger from God, such as Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, Bab and Baha'u'llah.

They are the source of all the Attributes, the perfect example of Love.

Regards Tony

 

[Jagella]

I see that Love is the foundation of all virtue and that all virtues emanate from Love. I see no virtues can exist without Love, love being the pure white light and the virtues the refracted light seen in all the colours of the rainbow.

Regards Tony

So much of what the religious have to say makes little sense. You've posted an example here. Maybe that's why religion is so popular. If it made sense, then it could be falsified.

 

[rational experiences]

The bible was written only about human man theist designer rich man civilisation builder.

Human warnings the destroyer purpose by conscious human strategies.

Against bio life garden nature supported God life. The human scientist theist was always the human scientist.

Humans warned his destroyer coercion said he personally by all his strategies will place his life as cities built underground whilst he burns us as Satan off the face of earth.

As pretend coercive belief a human life came out beneath gods earth stone mass. In fusion as Satan. Yet he's with God he says....just so you know what he believes about human family.

Machines plus his city rebuilt underground was where he originally put all life in sciences origin. Inside of earths opened bowels everything fell in. A long time ago. So he says he must save his s first machine and life

Put it back he says as it once was lived.

Possessed by human science history.

So his brother does a movie war of the world's with Tom Cruise Scientologist ufologist star theme.

I was Taught when he is given title by science ...science wants us to return to his alien themed attack. His scientist just a human following all themes.

Earth bowels tectonic carpenter will open. His future owning his underground cities and machines will be pushed up and burst through the earth seal.

Said war of the world's movie theme.

Where his UFO machines he builds are. As humans believe in UFO and only humans theory the UFO as humans.

Combusting bio life above ground by huge lightning held constant channel strikes above.

As a formed believed human UFO... Jesus incident. Why they said Tom Cruise owned that idol meaning in science. My spiritual human warning itself is about the science brothers. When men decide to use mind contact programs.

Currently Active. Scientology warned also.

As he's already planned and predicted it. Theme man's self possessed science AI themes. Men build it as men believe in all ideas of it.

As science wrote the bible future predictions himself. So he knows it's real.

He gets ready to cause it.

His thesis if I prove Mars burnt into a huge desert yet now has life microbes I will convince earth scientists I can burn earths mass back to my inventive ground chemical thesis.

We'll be safe underground he says as owner all reasons the actions were taken.

Thesis he says will have created first biology itself by a believed human only living in living water test studying.. As I'm God I will reinvent life on earth myself as a theist.

I will be god in person says men the possessed scientist......
. Knowing I will incinerate life above ground.

Scientists owned direct advice by Stephen Hawking.

I'm ready as I now have my underground cities and all plants seeds to re establish life as a new secret governed order only. Members Only he says.

The rest of you humans unworthy.

Believes his preaching about the rich man being saved by his built underground retreats. As he's Christ under the ground you know as he says so.

However he acts out his possession physically.

If I can force humans to agree to allow me the achieving earths reseeding myself as a God. By Mars prediction knowing Mayan era human science set mars on fire.

I saw his memory. I know he believes he has the rights to restart life on earth himself as a scientist as a God self.

By implementing all beliefs only by his personal human thesis and all human studies.

 

[RestlessSoul]

You think correctly. It appears to me that those who insist they cannot be happy without their religion could get by without it. Many happy people are not religious. If they can be happy without religion, then why not everybody?



So were you miserable without your religion? How does your religion make you happy?

Allow me to conclude by making what I think is an important observation. Happiness appears to be very fleeting and very fragile. Things may be going well for you now, and therefore it is easy to be happy. If tragedy strikes, though, it may shatter your happiness in an instant. Also, happiness can be based on delusion, and when that bubble bursts and reality sets in, then happiness can be gone.

So maybe happiness is not the point. There are other gifts of faith, such as finding meaning and purpose in life, courage in adversity, and the capacity to meet calamity with serenity.

In any case, most religions traditions teach that what we give to others is more important than what we gain for ourselves.

“For it is in self forgetting, that we find. It is in giving, that we receive.”

 

[Spirit of Light]

So much of what the religious have to say makes little sense. You've posted an example here. Maybe that's why religion is so popular. If it made sense, then it could be falsified.

Just because religion does not make sense to you, does not mean it can't hold deep meaning and sense for others

 

[Jagella]

So maybe happiness is not the point. There are other gifts of faith, such as finding meaning and purpose in life, courage in adversity, and the capacity to meet calamity with serenity.

Why do you need religion to find meaning and purpose in life? Many people find meaning and purpose in life without religion. Did somebody tell you that you need religion for those reasons?

In any case, most religions traditions teach that what we give to others is more important than what we gain for ourselves.

“For it is in self forgetting, that we find. It is in giving, that we receive.”

That sounds nice, but in practice almost all people including religious people put themselves first and only give what they can easily spare. "Giving" can actually be a perceived gain in that we receive or expect to receive something in return for our giving. Many religions promise their followers rewards for acting charitably. So I can't say I'm impressed with religious charity. I used to get food from a church-sponsored charity, and much of that food was unfit for eating. They doled out moldy bread and rancid meat. It was all very shallow if not deceitful and hypocritical.

 

[Jagella]

Just because religion does not make sense to you, does not mean it can't hold deep meaning and sense for others

I suppose you're right, but I need to judge for myself. I give religious people every opportunity to clarify their beliefs to me. If all they can do is babble about it, then I call it for what it is. You'll find people in mental institutions for whom their being Abe Lincoln makes sense to them, but I'm not likely to agree.

 

[Spirit of Light]

I suppose you're right, but I need to judge for myself. I give religious people every opportunity to clarify their beliefs to me. If all they can do is babble about it, then I call it for what it is. You'll find people in mental institutions for whom their being Abe Lincoln makes sense to them, but I'm not likely to agree.

Being religious is a personal journey toward God (or other deities) so actually it does not matter if non believers does not understand why a believer believe.
A believer has no obligati8n to justify why they believe in a God or a buddha, or other deities.

 

[Jagella]

Being religious is a personal journey toward God (or other deities) so actually it does not matter if non believers does not understand why a believer believe.

What I don't understand is what you're doing on a discussion board about religion if you think it doesn't matter what people who don't share your beliefs understand about those beliefs. You may be an exceptional case, but for the large majority of religious people it does indeed matter if others understand their beliefs. We know that's true because essentially all religions proselytize reaching out to unbelievers by word of mouth, books, tracts, TV, radio, and now the internet. Much of that exposure to the public involves explaining the tenets of the religion to both believers and unbelievers. Personally, I care if people understand my opinions on religion because I think it's important to educate and inform people.

A believer has no obligati8n to justify why they believe in a God or a buddha, or other deities.

I'm not so sure if I'd call it an obligation, but I think it's generally polite to answer sensible questions about one's position on religion and other issues. I answer such questions without reservation. I can and will justify my conclusions to any interested party. I have nothing to hide, and that's why I participate in discussions on this board.