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Religion and Politics

Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
This is a very minisformed view, I'm afraid. Might I ask , where'd you get that from, that After the death Of the Porphet (pbuh), his Companions waged war against each other? Which war was this and when did it happen?:confused:

The Sunni Shia History developed much later, and it has no roots around the time of several decades after his death. It started around the time of Hazrat Ali (RA) the fourth Caliph, who was the married to the daughter of the Prophet, and When he had heard of it, he strongly opposed to the Idea of sects based on Glorification of either of the companions of the Prophet, as if each practised Islam in a different version, which is strongly discouraged in Islam, and is called Bidah"(meaning astrayed, far away from the real deen)

And it is said to have all started (according to historians) when a Jew convert to Islam, moved away from the Caliphate and proselytized Islam with additions and distortions of his own, incorporating his own touch, which surprisingly is evident all over the Shia textual references (the books of their Imams,) impregnated with Jewish symbolism and traditions.

Hence, people who were influenced by the good teachings of Islam, accepted the message entirely while not knowing the actual truth. As soon as their version of Islam was heard by the Right Guided 4th Caliph, it was totally refuted, and there were missions sent to identify such people, but they were said to have fled away into self imposed exile, hence you will find the Shia sect further from the centre of Islam, The Arab.

The 4 Caliphs of Islam after the Prophet (pbuh SAWW )were the Right guided ones and Inspite of differences of opinion among them (only 'on the modus operandi) to carry out certain things, (rather than the Ideology of Islam,) they always stood united upon ONE version of Islam, i.e The one taught by the Prophet(pbuh) Himself.

There is lot of history to the groups, but the main point being that there were no groupings of sects at the time of and Right AFTER the Prophet, It is discouraged for Muslims to be divided into groups, as has been said in the Quran and the Hadith, I myself don't associate myself with groupings, The Law of Allah and the practice of the Prophet is what a Muslim is defined by.

So, the political struggles that took place decades after the death of the Prophet, were not motivated by sects but by Huge conspiracies to PREVENT the Imams of the Muslim world to gain any control over the Muslim affairs and make it look like a solely political effort, which it was not.

As for the political struggles of Modern Muslim world, and the commotion that there was/is between some of the muslim nations, Arabs, turks, kurds, is not out of an ISLAMIC perspective which makes those efforts entirely 'imperialist, dictatorial, capitalist, political etc'.

An islamic system is FORMED out of a great Credence given to the Caliph by the muslim population themselves so there is no chance of being divided on the sides by either sect or conspiracy, unless ofcorse certain elements design a fierce conspiracy to topple such a system.

In a modern democratic state, politicians first sell themselves with all the gloss to their un-suspecting voters and when once in power, they do what their agenda is, the wishes of the voters are conveniently ignored. In Islamic system , a person is CHOSEN on the basis of his character and he doesn't go around beggging for votes, People go to him themselves assigining him their trust. The Islamic ideology which is the correct one is the one based on The Quran and authentic hadees, sans any personal touch or vendetta entwined with it under cover.
Before we begin. ask yourself, are you being romantic of a mythological Islamic past, or are you willing to discuss history without sentimental baggage. I am willing to discuss figures, dates, facts, armies, dynasties.
I just want to make sure that my experience in the university, in the field and in travelling the middle east is not going to be wasted on a sentimental believer.
 

A-ManESL

Well-Known Member
Hello A-ManESL
I totally agree that in reality there is no duality.
I felt obliged to start with the premise that Creator and creation are two and that there is an implicit duality in Islamic theology.

As I said, the idea of wahdat (Unity) of God has many levels of understanding. Rumi said "In the shop of wahdat everything else you see besides God is an idol". He was at a level which could appreciate this Unity.

How do Sufi explain the problem of evil acts my mankind?

We (meaning ordinary people) understand things as evil or good based on our limited understanding, but the true knowledge escapes us. In reality everything comes from God and to Him it returns. At such a level of understanding the idea of bad/good becomes superfluous. There is a story in the Quran about Hazrat Khidr who taught Moses(pbuh) this. Also the Quran says:
If any good befalls them, they Say: "This is from God," and if any bad befalls them, they Say: "This is from you!( meaning from Muhammad)" Say: "All is from God;" - 4:78

Regards
 
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Onkara

Well-Known Member
As I said, the idea of wahdat (Unity) of God has many levels of understanding. Rumi said "In the shop of wahdat everything else you see besides God is an idol". He was at a level which could appreciate this Unity.
....

If one truly understands wahdat (or Unity) this duality vanishes and so does the need of one entity submitting to the other.
Thank you A-ManESL
I cannot help but agree.
Perhaps we can explore together :) One angle I would like to offer for consideration on this topic of submission is the point you made earlier that there is no one to submit to another. Why has this state of understanding unity arisen and on what grounds are we able to confirm that there is no entity submitting to another?

The state of unity is just that, there is no longer seen to be any being outside or separate to Allah and His creation; Al-'Aḥad. Life is not an item we own but instead it is Allah's to give and take. Our lives are not our own in the same way we might refer to an article of clothing. We may consider discarding or giving away an article of clothing but we now realise that our life is and was never something we could give away so easily. It never was "ours" in the possessive sense of the word. There is no other to submit to, as the submission is already complete. In reality it never was a choice as it was never "ours" to submit or withhold. Al-'Aḥad knows of every leaf that falls from a tree (6:60). He holds all in life's grasp (3:6). Eternally.

Al-'Aḥad willed us to be, we are His breath (15:29) and our existence serves that divine purpose. Recognising that life is being lived through us, rather than simply by us, we take a stronger approach to the world and realise that all beings are united with Al-'Aḥad through His will to be. Once the doubt is removed one can testify that there is no duality, no division. All are a part of the sum and not apart from it. There is no way any being could exist without Him having willed it to be (2:29). There is no entity to submit to because the submission completed its purpose, one was always "chosen", and in reality, one has always been bound in unity with the Master (22:79).
 
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A-ManESL

Well-Known Member
Thank you A-ManESL
I cannot help but agree.
Perhaps we can explore together :) One angle I would like to offer for consideration on this topic of submission is the point you made earlier that there is no one to submit to another. Why has this state of understanding unity arisen and on what grounds are we able to confirm that there is no entity submitting to another?

Dear Onkara,

The concept of wahdat-e-wajood (Unity of Existence) is tricky and requires discernment and spiritual insight to fully comprehend. I personally am not quite up to that level to gauge it in its entirety.

Having said that, here are my views. Hopefully you will find them relevant. I hold that everything has devolved from the full essence of the metaphysical Reality,(cf the Fall of Adam), and is a dispersed reflection of it in various ways (Wheresoever you may look there is the face of God.-2:115) Also the phrase "And he taught Adam all the names" in the Quran means that God has implanted all the knowledge of His attributes (or the manifestations of His reflections) inside man. It should be noted that this does not imply a simple minded pantheism because the full essence of the Reality has a quality of self subsistence which is His alone. This is not shared by Its dispersed reflections which are manifested through His attributes and have no subsistence independent of Him. The Quran says "Everything is perishing but His face" (28:88), as every second we (our finite temporary selfs) perishes and 'a new us' arrives from God, in the sense that the idea of our existence is continued. This constant supply of ourselves from God makes us exist. Imam Ghazali called this quality of God's self-subsistence akhassu wasfihi and approved the formula, "La huwa illa huwa" meaning "there is no it but It".

The thing which actually concerns us is that since everything descends from God, it has a primordial urge within it to return. It yearns to go back and attain the full Unity by reaching the original divine plane from where it started. This is built inside everything's own essence. Rumi termed this urge very simply as "love" for it pulls and causes the two entities to Unite. The treasure inside us is therefore very big indeed. In proportion to the value of the treasure, a big lock is placed on it, as part of the "game of God". This is the lock of our apparent ego and selfishness which act as a veil and prevent us from reaching God.

The concept of surrender is a means to an end, a sort of map for the journey: the purpose ultimately is to tear that veil of Ego and selfishness. When I said that surrender of one entity submitting to the other is superfluous I did not mean that it is superfluous for everyone at all points of life, rather for those who have crossed the journey at least in a certain sense. One who has already reached his destination, what need is there for a map for Him?

The original point I wished to make would be put forward in this setting as follows: This surrender/harmony can be executed in various ways and each Messenger put forward a way in His/Her own language (And we never sent a messenger save the language of his folk-14:4). To claim that Prophet Muhammad's(pbuh) way (which people identify with Islam) is the sole way is incorrect: If one returns to the original teachings of any religion one will find it is the same in essence, the same Islam to which the Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) was calling in essence. Secondly Political governance is as much of God as is eating, drinking, praying etc: everything is part of the God's manifestation (All is from God-4:78) and to differentiate and say that so and so a thing is outside this Unity is incorrect. Thirdly, in continuation of point one above, some cultures take a simple approach and directly implement commands given to them by their leaders, some deduce laws from their natural understanding themselves, and in effect develop different modes of political governance. As long as these adhere to righteousness they are in effect surrendering to the Absolute Truth (or God) and essentially following the same Islam albeit approached through various ways.

Regards
 
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BruceDLimber

Well-Known Member
In the Baha'i Faith, participation in partisan politics is strictly forbidden; and indeed, the Faith itself operates under a system of fully democratic elections completely devoid of politics! For example, nominations, campaigning, and discussion of individual personalities are not permitted.

Peace, :)

Bruce
 

Onkara

Well-Known Member
Dear Onkara,

The concept of wahdat-e-wajood (Unity of Existence) is tricky and requires discernment and spiritual insight to fully comprehend. I personally am not quite up to that level to gauge it in its entirety. Having said that, here are my views. Hopefully you will find them relevant.
Dear A-ManESL
Well dear sir, I have no reason to doubt its relevance or your level, and see no reason for you to impose one :)

1) The Knowledge
Also the phrase "And he taught Adam all the names" in the Quran means that God has implanted all the knowledge of His attributes (or the manifestations of His reflections) inside man. It should be noted that this does not imply a simple minded pantheism because the full essence of the Reality has a quality of self subsistence which is His alone.

2) God as Love
The thing which actually concerns us is that since everything descends from God, it has a primordial urge within it to return. It yearns to go back and attain the full Unity by reaching the original divine plane from where it started. This is built inside everything's own essence. Rumi termed this urge very simply as "love" for it pulls and causes the two entities to Unite. The treasure inside us is therefore very big indeed. In proportion to the value of the treasure, a big lock is placed on it, as part of the "game of God". This is the lock of our apparent ego and selfishness which act as a veil and prevent us from reaching God.

3) Ego and the end of the journey
The concept of surrender is a means to an end, a sort of map for the journey: the purpose ultimately is to tear that veil of Ego and selfishness. When I said that surrender of one entity submitting to the other is superfluous I did not mean that it is superfluous for everyone at all points of life, rather for those who have crossed the journey at least in a certain sense. One who has already reached his destination, what need is there for a map for Him?

4) Various form of surrender and political sovereignty
The original point I wished to make would be put forward in this setting as follows: This surrender/harmony can be executed in various ways and each Messenger put forward a way in His/Her own language (And we never sent a messenger save the language of his folk-14:4). To claim that Prophet Muhammad's(pbuh) way (which people identify with Islam) is the sole way is incorrect: If one returns to the original teachings of any religion one will find it is the same in essence, the same Islam to which the Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) was calling in essence.

Secondly Political governance is as much of God as is eating, drinking, praying etc: everything is part of the God's manifestation (All is from God-4:78) and to differentiate and say that so and so a thing is outside this Unity is incorrect.

Thirdly, in continuation of point one above, some cultures take a simple approach and directly implement commands given to them by their leaders, some deduce laws from their natural understanding themselves, and in effect develop different modes of political governance. As long as these adhere to righteousness they are in effect surrendering to the Absolute Truth (or God) and essentially following the same Islam albeit approached through various ways.

I am learning a lot, I have made some sections to be able to address those points in this sitting, but I find the parts I didn’t quote to be really insightful. 

1) The knowledge
Knowing and knowledge is essential and I see it as no coincidence that you raise this topic now. Because the division, or duality, arises in the divide between, knower (you) the object known and the act of knowing. When all three are recognised as one then there is no duality. Knowing then is key, and it is this knowing with which God populates us. We have the ability to know. Even the ability to know that we do not know. Knowing is divine in nature. In meditation we sit still and see that there is knowing of the mind and thoughts. This knowing is consciousness.

2) God as Love
As we are in the comparative religions, I found this interesting as in Kashmir Shaivism there is a similar concept. Shiva, God consciousness, wishes to expand and be many. His expansion is through His female counterpart Shakti. So here female and male are bound in love. I liked your explanation.

3) Ego and the end of the journey
I recognised you were not implying everyone, but those who are more attuned to the topic at hand. I embellished my answer to make my point more clear. What is key in this paragraph above is the analogy of the veil of ego and selfishness which must be torn down to arrive at a higher truth. Firstly we need to explain how the ego and selfishness arose, how did Allah create them, why and for what reason if any?
Secondly we must assume that some people still have ego and selfishness, or else all would be liberated, in the wahdat-e-wajood sense, as surrender/submission is then redundant.

4) Various form of surrender and political sovereignty
I agree, all paths lead to that same goal. The Prophet pbuh, addressed the people of his day.

In the second and third part we come to the crunch.
We can agree that politics is as much a part of the whole, of God, as eating and sleeping, however how do we distinguish those who are adapting or “deduce laws from their natural understanding themselves” from those who are acting on ego or selfishness? Where is the divide, and who is the judge of their righteousness?
 

Onkara

Well-Known Member
In the Baha'i Faith, participation in partisan politics is strictly forbidden; and indeed, the Faith itself operates under a system of fully democratic elections completely devoid of politics! For example, nominations, campaigning, and discussion of individual personalities are not permitted.

Peace, :)

Bruce

Hello Bruce
Please can you capture why, is it from a spiritual/religious sense? :)
 

A-ManESL

Well-Known Member
Dear Onkara

Rumi explains how the intitial divide occured as follows:

It is impossible to know anything without its opposite, yet God has no opposite. “I was a hidden treasure,” God says, “and I wanted to be known.” So It created this world of darkness for Its Light to become visible. So, too, It manifested the prophets and the saints, saying, “Go forth with My Attributes into My creation.” They are the theater for the Light of God, where friend may be disclosed from foe, and brother from stranger. The struggles of the saints reveals God’s opposite, even though It has none. Through persecution and opposition, the saints become known and admired.

“With their mouths, the unbelievers try to extinguish the Light of God.
But God will perfect His Light through their adversity.”

-Discourses of Rumi.

Distinguishing of people who are good and bad is done by True knowledge, and the True knowledge is the Knowledge of God. That is how one may judge ones actions and separate the good (meaning which leads towards Unity) from the bad(meaning which enforces duality). It is my view that to seek out saints and men and women of God is imperative and to seek their advice on all matters requiring thought is essential.

Regards
 

Onkara

Well-Known Member
Dear A-ManESL
So in a nutshell we can agree that all division is done by God for God. I feel this verse captures it best:

"But Allah leads astray whom He will and guides whom He will. He is the Almighty, the Wise." - Quran 14.4 Compared Translations of the meaning of the Quran - 14:4

Whilst we are here, and in the comparative section, one may find these similiar verses interesting from other scriptures. To me this implies there is One God, but many ways of expressing that same truth:

"Some, by His Command, are blessed and forgiven; others, by His Command, wander aimlessly forever."
Sri Granth: Shabad/Paurhi/Salok SGGS Page 1

"He whom the Self chooses, by him alone is It attained. To him the Self reveals Its true nature.".
http://www.hinduwebsite.com/sacredsc...rama/katha.asp
 

Onkara

Well-Known Member
Dear Onkara.

I agree completely :)

Regards
Hello A-ManESL
The question then becomes, is there anything we can do to help ourselves? We agree that everything is the will of Allah. Whilst the duality of creator (Al-Wahud) and creation (man) is held then what can man do to help him/herself? The answer I see from the Quran is that it is only in full submission, the submission of *all* our wants and lusts to Allah, the most high.

Does God guide those who submit to Him, over those who choose to deny Him or follow their personal wants and desires? I would say so. Lets take a look at the Quran:

72:14. "Amongst us are some that submit their wills (to Allah), and
some that swerve from justice. Now those who submit their wills-
-they have sought out (the path) of right conduct:
72:15. "But those who swerve, --they are (but) fuel for Hellfire"


Who are those who "swerve" or are on the wrong path?

Firstly, it is those who act unjustly or are lowered to hate, even hate of other people:

5.9. O ye who believe! Stand out firmly for Allah, as witnesses to
fair dealing, and let not the hatred of others to you make you
swerve to wrong and depart from justice. Be just: That is next
to Piety: And fear Allah. For Allah is well acquainted with all
that ye do.


It is also those who follow their lust, their "wants":

4:135: .... Follow not the lusts (of your hearts),
lest ye swerve, and if ye distort (justice) or decline to do
justice, verily Allah is well acquainted with all that ye do.

28:50. But if they hearken not to thee, know that they only follow
their own lusts: and who is more astray than one who follows his
own lusts, devoid of guidance from Allah? For Allah guides not
people given to wrongdoing.


The answer to overcome these lusts and political wants is in Allah, in complete submission, in Islam as a Muslim:

2:267. O ye who believe! Give of the good things which ye have
(honorably) earned, and of the fruits of the earth which We have
produced for you, and do not even aim at getting anything which
is bad, in order that out of it ye may give away something, when
ye yourselves would not receive it except with closed eyes. And
know that Allah is Free of all wants, and Worthy of all praise.

268. The Evil One threatens you with poverty and bids you to
conduct unseemly. Allah promiseth you His forgiveness and
bounties. And Allah careth for all and He knoweth all things.


For it is only Allah is free of all wants, for Allah is great!

14:8. And Moses said: "If ye show ingratitude, ye and all on earth
together, --yet is Allah Free of all wants, Worthy of all
Praise."

22:64 To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and on earth: For
verily Allah, --He is free of all wants, worthy of all praise.


The answer is not in political wants but in full submission to Allah:
31:22. Whoever submits his whole self to Allah, and is a doer of
good, has grasped indeed the most trustworthy handhold: And with
Allah rests the End and Decision of (all) affairs.


For those who see only Unity, there submission is complete and their wants are no longer their own.

And Allah knows best. :)
 
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A-ManESL

Well-Known Member
I feel that we are talking at various levels in the same discussion but as long as it isnt confusing lets continue.

To add to the above I firmly believe that besides good deeds direct prayer to God also fires the hidden angst in our hearts for God. Ultimately, although the Unity is achieved with God's grace but just as it is the lover's duty to seek ceaselessly for His Beloved, so it is man's duty to strive in God's way. Without bothering about whether it helps us or not, man should continue to seek God through prayer and good deeds.

“When God’s help comes through victory,
And you see people
Submitting to His Will in throngs,
Then fill yourself with the presence of the Lord, And seek His forgiveness;
For God turns to men and women again.-Chapter 110 of Quran

The exoteric meaning of the above Chapter is obvious. It was the genius of Rumi which gave an entirely new esoteric commentary to this:

People think they can drive away evil by great effort and striving. After struggling and exhausting all their powers and means, they fall into despair. Then God says to them:“You thought you could achieve this goal through your own power, action and work. This is the law I have laid down: Whatever you possess, spend it in Our name. Then Our grace will supervene.

So, although the final grace which causes duality to vanish is of God yet the Law is such that one should continue to strive on God's path whilst continually hoping for His grace.

Regards
 

Onkara

Well-Known Member
This is a very good point. From the ultimate level there is no "you" or "me" striving, praying or carrying out good deeds in God's name. There is no "doer" to become tired or to fall into despair. This is known only once it is known and not before, by which I mean that it appears as God's grace.

The depth of this truth is not seen by the majority, for Allah leads astray whom He will and guides whom He will. Therefore the sages, such as Rumi (and perhaps you might be able to find examples in the Quran?) give the message on more than one level. It comes to mind that this is why in the NT Jesus pbuh speaks in parables.

I hope also that other Muslims (or non-muslims) will read through this thread and give their opinion. :eek:
 

BruceDLimber

Well-Known Member
Please can you capture why; is it from a spiritual/religious sense?

Sorry; please clarify your question.

Why what?

Are you asking whether the prohibition on politics is for religious reasons, or are you talking about our internal administrative structure, or what?

Thanks! :)

Bruce
 

Onkara

Well-Known Member


Sorry; please clarify your question.

Why what?

Are you asking whether the prohibition on politics is for religious reasons, or are you talking about our internal administrative structure, or what?

Thanks! :)

Bruce

Hi Bruce
I am wondering is there is a reason given in the scriptures for the prohibition of politics? Is it considered bad for us or is there another reason politics are prohibited such as administration only?

Thank you!
 

BruceDLimber

Well-Known Member
I am wondering is there is a reason given in the scriptures for the prohibition of politics? Is it considered bad for us, or is there another reason politics are prohibited, such as administration only?

The prohibition is on PARTISAN politics because it's inherently divisive, operating as it does under a divide-and-conquer philosophy!

And given that the primary goal of the Baha'i Faith is to promote and foster UNITY, this makes perfect sense!

So yes, you can say such stuff is bad for us.

This is also the reason why Baha'is are forbidden from joining political parties, running for office, etc..

Politics generically isn't prohibited, please note--only the partisan sort. This means that Baha'is can (and do) serve as judges, for example, or on school boards. (Indeed, two Baha'is served for many decades on the California Supreme Court and a California federal appeals court.)

And our internal administration reflects this same attitude, which is why Baha'i elections, while fully democratic, exclude nominations, campaigning, and discussion of individual personalities. Instead, the believers gather, and after a period of prayer, each votes by secret ballot for the nine individuals he or she feels are best qualified to serve. Those receiving the most votes are automatically elected. There's no chance to "run for office"; and if elected, one is expected to serve (save if illness or unusual hardship makes this impossible).

(There's also a tie-breaking procedure for ninth place that's structured to favor minorities.)

Regards, :)

Bruce
 
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