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Religion and Politics

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
Do you believe that the original teachings of Islam as revealed by God and His chosen ones, were meant to be an instrumental tool in political and military offers, or you believe, God did not allow it to be used in politics?

I am not so much interested in personal opinions, so Please explain by providing Sources from Quran and Hadith.

Thanks
 

Gharib

I want Khilafah back
I have tried several times to find a scholarly text on this question or hadith of some sort on this nature and have been unsuccessful.

I think it may be because the answer is too obvious and needs no evidence in pointing out.

Islam encompasses all aspects of life, even something that is yet to have a name or be structured into being, is also covered by Islam.

Statehood didn't really exist while the Prophet was alive, as he ruled without questioning or opposition from his followers. But then after his death, the Khulafah were questioned at times and disagreement did arise for which there were committees and advisers set up to deal with these differences in opinion. So this was something new that was born out of necessity.
 

mojtaba

Active Member
If you mean the Separation of Religion and Politics, Quran and Sahih Sunna do not aknowledge it.

There are many political verses in Quran.

Prophet Muhammad after migration of himself and Muslims to the Medina, established an strong Islamic government.

There are many Hadiths from Prophet Muhammad and 12 Imams about the principles of how to govern.

Good luck!
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
Thank you gharib and mojtaba,

So, maybe I should ask my question in a different way.

Does Islam teach, or commands, or allows, that other than the Prophets of God, or other than those who are chosen by God, to establish a 'divinely ordianed' government?

So, for example in Quran says, who ever obeys Muhammad, has obeyed God. Or in Shia, The divinly chosen Imams, have authority over men.
What about other Religious leaders who are not explicitly chosen by God, and are not infallible? Are they also given authority to rule over people? Is obedience to them, the same as obedience to God?
 

Gharib

I want Khilafah back
Thank you gharib and mojtaba,

So, maybe I should ask my question in a different way.

Does Islam teach, or commands, or allows, that other than the Prophets of God, or other than those who are chosen by God, to establish a 'divinely ordianed' government?

So, for example in Quran says, who ever obeys Muhammad, has obeyed God. Or in Shia, The divinly chosen Imams, have authority over men.
What about other Religious leaders who are not explicitly chosen by God, and are not infallible? Are they also given authority to rule over people? Is obedience to them, the same as obedience to God?

Yes Islam allows following others so long as they rule by the laws of God. Other than Prophets who were guarded from making mistakes, all others make mistakes and have shortcomings, even the 4 rightly guided Khalifah's were fallible.

In Islam, we call our leaders Khalifah, a word found in the Qur'an, which in simple terms based from the meaning given in the Qur'an, means a representative of Allah on earth. But there are conditions to it, that they be Muslim and rule according to the laws of Allah/Islam.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
Yes Islam allows following others so long as they rule by the laws of God. Other than Prophets who were guarded from making mistakes, all others make mistakes and have shortcomings, even the 4 rightly guided Khalifah's were fallible.

In Islam, we call our leaders Khalifah, a word found in the Qur'an, which in simple terms based from the meaning given in the Qur'an, means a representative of Allah on earth. But there are conditions to it, that they be Muslim and rule according to the laws of Allah/Islam.
Thanks

Yes, I am aware that Quran and Sunnah encourages Muslims to also learn from true scollars.

As regards to the Term Khalif, I am also aware that it is in the Quran. But to the best of my knowledge, those Khalifs in the Quran, are selected by God. For example Abraham was also a Khalif, and people were to obey Him. But are there any examples in the Quran, or any Sahih Hadith, that gives an example, that was acceptable for People to follow those Khalifs who are not appointed by God?
 

Gharib

I want Khilafah back
Thanks

Yes, I am aware that Quran and Sunnah encourages Muslims to also learn from true scollars.

As regards to the Term Khalif, I am also aware that it is in the Quran. But to the best of my knowledge, those Khalifs in the Quran, are selected by God. For example Abraham was also a Khalif, and people were to obey Him. But are there any examples in the Quran, or any Sahih Hadith, that gives an example, that was acceptable for People to follow those Khalifs who are not appointed by God?

You are correct, the Qur'an mostly refers as Khalif to Prophets, that they will obey Allah and through his guidance will rule justly.

But there is a verse in the Qur'an when Allah informs the angels that he will create humans and that they will be his representatives on earth without making any distinction that they must be a Prophet or not.

And [mention, O Muhammad], when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority." They said, "Will You place upon it one who causes corruption therein and sheds blood, while we declare Your praise and sanctify You?" Allah said, "Indeed, I know that which you do not know."
Qur'an, chapter 2 verse 30


Moreover, there are examples from the life of our Prophet, who upon illness chose Abu Bakr to lead the prayers, in a way becoming his successor. He was being prepared to lead, which is the role of the Imam. And after Abu Bakr became Khalifah he was called Khalifatur Rasulullah - The successor of the Messenger of Allah.

We also have the hadith that speak of Imam Mahdi, an ordinary man who will one day become our Khalifah and rule by Islamic laws. He is described as an ordinary man who is a descendant of our Prophet.
 

Wasp

Active Member
What about other Religious leaders who are not explicitly chosen by God, and are not infallible? Are they also given authority to rule over people? Is obedience to them, the same as obedience to God?
The answer is obvious. The entire Qur'an as well as hadith makes it clear Islam is not something separate from politics.

4:59 "Believers! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger, and those from among you who are invested with authority; and then if you were to dispute among yourselves about anything refer it to Allah and the Messenger if you indeed believe in Allah and the Last Day; that is better and more commendable in the end."

Obedience to authority is not exactly the same as obedience to God. Obedience to God comes first. Obedience to authority is only in so far as the government and its orders obey God.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Do you believe that the original teachings of Islam as revealed by God and His chosen ones, were meant to be an instrumental tool in political and military offers, or you believe, God did not allow it to be used in politics?

I am not so much interested in personal opinions, so Please explain by providing Sources from Quran and Hadith.

Thanks

There are hadiths that society cannot due without a Hakim (ruler) good or bad from Imam Ali (as) in Nahjul balagha. There should be attempt to follow Ahlulbayt and Quran in politics and government, but, the problem is Taqlid. The problem is not WF. Wilayatal Faqih is proven in Quran and hadiths, the ruler should be a Faqih. What is not proven, is blindly following a scholar for religion.

Also, see the Sermon of Mina of Imam Hussain.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Too much stretching in my opinion. God is not shy. If He wanted to allow ordinary muslims, establish a divine Islamic state, He would have said so clearly.
That right is only given to Imams in Islam. If you want to prove your point, please quote verses of Quran. A Hadith, which is not compatible with Quran is absord.

Sorry, we won't do the same mistake as Khawarij did, their slogan was "government is only for God" and they wanted to solve the dispute between Mauwiya and Imam Ali (as) through debating Quran when what they should've done was trust in Imam Ali (as) at this point and finish Muawiya and his army off.

There are many verses related to government, war, and politics, and believers role in all that.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Like I said, it's clear in Quran. The problem is you follow your desires and impose it on Quran. The Quran says itself not to ask questions that will hurt you and many did so and turn disbelievers as a result, but if Quran is being inspired to you, they will be clarified to you. I would do istekhara and reflect over Quran and politics, there are plenty of verses about this.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
Like I said, it's clear in Quran. The problem is you follow your desires and impose it on Quran. The Quran says itself not to ask questions that will hurt you and many did so and turn disbelievers as a result, but if Quran is being inspired to you, they will be clarified to you. I would do istekhara and reflect over Quran and politics, there are plenty of verses about this.
Can you please quote the verses of Quran that Allah allows Islam to be used in politics?
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
You mean during Imams time or Ghayba?
If you can bring verses from Quran for both cases, it will be great.

1. Are there any verses applicable for during Imams that allows Islam to be used in politics, or governemt, in a sense to establish an islamic state that will be considered divine?


2. Are there any verses applicable for during ghaybet, that allows Islam to be used in politics, or governemt, in a sense to establish an islamic state that will be considered divine?
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
If you can bring verses from Quran for both cases, it will be great.

1. Are there any verses applicable for during Imams that allows Islam to be used in politics, or governemt, in a sense to establish an islamic state that will considered divine?

2. Are there any verses applicable for during ghaybet, that allows Islam to be used in politics, or governemt, in a sense to establish an islamic state that will considered divine?

A holy book that doesn't comment on the issue of government and what our role should be with it, is not a complete guidance, it's not even Semi-guidance. A religion ignoring this fundamental aspect of humanity is a religion that put's it's a head in the sand like an ostrich. As far as governance in Islam, whether Imam is in Ghayba or not, Allah (swt) authority is to be adhered to, but God doesn't force humans. We aren't going to rely on conjecture and devils falsehood rather then truth clarified by God.

That said, I'm not interested too much in Ghayba or Imams (as) period because you know the answer to both. What you really are asking is what should be our role now?

For that, first assess the situation. Then apply verses of Quran to it. As far as politics and government goes, the Quran provides a complete dynamic guidance to that. It didn't provide a universal shoe fit all.

What you really interest is what should believers role be today per Quran. And this is a good question.

First, do believers today understand Islam correctly so to apply it in government.

If so, how do we prove it?
If not, how do we prove it?

My position is we misunderstood Islam, and we have to cut off from our forefathers and what we inherited from them. We have to approach religion on more sincere grounds and rely on Quran more with the help of insights from Ahlulbayt.

But that said, these are two different things. Government is needed whether we have misinterpreted religion or not. It would be needed whether God exists or not. Ignoring God's commands in government is never an option for a Muslim though. But the fact is government makes it more dire that we don't misinterpret religion nor follow the wrong one.

Therefore we need proofs. Proofs need to be provided for every Islamic injuction. Translations are not sufficient proofs.

The problem right now, is not that we shouldn't be politically involved. Is that Islam is in chaotic free-for all state where every type leader in the rainbow with whatever interpretation has a group of followers.

The situation makes us asses, what should I particularly do - to involve myself with the political situation and help believers and humanity in general. You have to assess with Quran. How are you going to give God a goodly gift. This is a question everyone has to ask.

Some people are evil idiots and go kill innocents because they weren't careful in assessing the situation and Quran. They were hasty and Satan blew into them conjecture and they believed it with respect to Quran.

Iran is wrong to not let Bahais practice religion and it has only harmed Iran to do this really. Freedom of religion is so important per Quran entire themes about this.
 
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Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I will first quote a hadith, then supplement it with brief proof from Quran:

The Sermon of Mina
from al Tawhid, p. 34, Vol. VII No. 4 Shawwal Dhu al Hijjah 1410

O people, take lesson from the counsel God gave to His friends when He rebuked the rabbis by saying:

“Why do the scholars and rabbis not forbid their sinful talk and consumption of what is unlawful ? Truly what they have done is evil.” (5:63)

And God says:

“Cursed by the tongue of David and Jesus, son of Mary are those among the Children of Israel who disbelieved on account of their rebellion and transgression. They did not prevent each other from committing vile and corrupt acts; surely what they did was abominable” (5:78-79).

God reproached them because they saw with their own eyes the oppressors committing vile and corrupt acts, but did not stop them, out of love for the favours they received from them as well as fear of persecution and injury. However, God says:

“Fear not men, but fear Me.” (5:44)

And He says:

“The believing men and women are friends and protectors to each other; they enjoin the good and forbid the evil; they perform the prayer, and pay the alms, and obey God and His messenger. Upon them God shall have mercy; God is Almighty, All-wise.” (9:71)

God mentions the duty of enjoining the good and forbidding the evil (al- 'amr bi al-ma'ruf wa al-nahy 'an al-munkar) before all other duties, because He knows that if it is performed and is established in the society all other duties, the easy and the difficult, will also become established.

The reason for this is that al-'amr bi al ma'ruf wa al-nahy 'an al-munkar means summoning people to Islam, as well as resistance against injustice, opposing and struggling against oppressors, and endeavoring to ensure that public wealth and income derived from war are distributed in accordance with the just laws of Islam, and that taxes are collected, levied and expended in due and proper form.

O scholars, who are celebrated and enjoy good repute on account of your learning! You have achieved a good name in society because of your good will. It is on account of God that men venerate you and stand in awe of you, so that even powerful fear you and the weak honour you, and those who are not subject to you and over whom you hold no authority grant you favours they deny themselves . When the people do not receive their due. they seek your intercession, and you walk in the street with the majesty of kings and princes.

Have you not earned all this respect and prestige because of the people's hopes that you will implement God's laws, even though in most instances you have failed to do so?

You have taken lightly your duties as leaders. You have neglected the rights of the oppressed and the lowly, but have assiduously pursued what you regard as your personal rights. You have not spent your money or risked your life for the sake of the One Who gave you life, nor have you fought against any group or tribe for the sake of God.

Nevertheless, you desire - and regard it as your due - that He should grant you paradise, the company of the prophet, and security from chastisement in the hereafter. You have such expectations of God, I fear that the full weight of His wrath descend upon you, for although it is by His might and glory that you have achieved high rank, you show no respect to those who truly know god, while you yourselves enjoy respect among God's creatures on His account.

(I am also afraid for you for another reason) you see the covenant enacted with God being violated and trampled under foot, yet you show no anxiety, when it comes to the covenants enacted with your fathers, you become greatly disturbed and anxious if they are only violated in part, but the pledges you have given to the most noble Messenger are a matter of complete indifference to you.

The blind, the dumb, and chronically ill everywhere lack protection in towns and no mercy is shown them. But you neither behave in accordance with your function and rank, nor you support or pay any regard to those who do. You purchase your safety from the oppressive ruling powers with flattery cajolery, and compromise.

All these activities have been forbidden you by God, and He has, more over, command you to forbid each other to engage in them, but you pay no attention.

The calamity that has befallen you is greater than what has befallen others, for true rank and degree of “Ulama” has been taken away from you. The administration of the country and the issuing of decrees and ordinances should actually be trusted to religious scholars who are guardians of God's ordinances concerning what is permitted and what is forbidden. But your position has been usurped from you, for no other reason than that you have abandoned the truth (al-haqq), and have disagreed about the nature of the sunnah, despite the existence of clear proofs.

Had you the forbearance to endure adversities and hardships for the sake of God, then all proposed regulations (God's affairs) would be brought to you for your approval and for you to issue; authority would lie in your hands. But you allowed the oppressors to take away your functions and God's affairs (i.e. government) to fall into their hands, so that they administer them by resorting to ambiguities and make arbitrariness and the satisfaction of lust their consistent practice.

What enabled them to gain control of government was your fleeing in panic from (inevitable) death and your love of life, which shall in all certainty depart from you. As a consequence of that mentality, you have delivered the powerless masses into the clutches of the oppressors.

While some cringe like slaves under the yoke of oppressors, and others have been reduced to destitution in regard to their livelihood, the rulers run the affairs of the government in accordance with their whims, earning ignominy and disgrace for themselves with their licentiousness, following evil counselors, and showing impudence toward God.

One of their appointed spokesmen mounts the pulpit (minbar) in each city. The country is defenseless before them, and their hands grab freely whatever they want of it. The people are their slaves and are powerless to defend themselves. One of the governors is a dictator by nature, malevolent and rancorous; another represses to recognize either God or the Day of Resurrection!

It is not strange - how can one think it strange, that society is the clutches of a cunning oppressor whose tax collectors are oppressors and whose governers feel no compassion or mercy towards the believers under rule.

It is God who will judge concerning what is dispute among us and deliver a decisive verdict concerning all that occurs among us.

O God! You know that everything we did was not prompted by rivalry for political power, nor for a search for wealth and abundance; rather it was done to demonstrate to men the shining principles and values of Your religion, to reform the affairs of Your land, to protect and secure the indisputable rights of Your oppressed servants, and to act in accordance with the duties You have established and the norms, laws, and ordinances You have decreed.

So (O scholars of religion!) You are to help us reach this goal, win back our rights from those powers who have considered it acceptable to wrong you and who have attempted to put out the light kindled by your Prophet. God suffices us, upon Him do we rely, to Him do we return, and to Him shall we return.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
A brief proof to this from Quran is the following:

[Yusufali 2:247] Their Prophet said to them: "Allah hath appointed Talut as king over you." They said: "How can he exercise authority over us when we are better fitted than he to exercise authority, and he is not even gifted, with wealth in abundance?" He said: "Allah hath Chosen him above you, and hath gifted him abundantly with knowledge and bodily prowess: Allah Granteth His authority to whom He pleaseth. Allah careth for all, and He knoweth all things."
وَقَالَ لَهُمْ نَبِيُّهُمْ إِنَّ آيَةَ مُلْكِهِ أَنْ يَأْتِيَكُمُ التَّابُوتُ فِيهِ سَكِينَةٌ مِنْ رَبِّكُمْ وَبَقِيَّةٌ مِمَّا تَرَكَ آلُ مُوسَىٰ وَآلُ هَارُونَ تَحْمِلُهُ الْمَلَائِكَةُ ۚ إِنَّ فِي ذَٰلِكَ لَآيَةً لَكُمْ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ مُؤْمِنِينَ {248}
[Yusufali 2:248] And (further) their Prophet said to them: "A Sign of his authority is that there shall come to you the Ark of the covenant, with (an assurance) therein of security from your Lord, and the relics left by the family of Moses and the family of Aaron, carried by angels. In this is a symbol for you if ye indeed have faith."



Now Prophet Samuel, his proofs for Talut, in fact, apply to him as well. But let's see if we can derive more from these verses.

The line "God has chosen him above you" is significant, because of moral excellence. In this case, God has manifested Talut (as) as a chosen King. The other line also argues further "increased in knowledge and physique". This alternative criteria.

The proof of Authority, of course, no one in particular has, like Talut, in this day in the age in the open.

But you can derive from this, that God over all wants:

all things equal, the one with more knowledge and more capability
all things equal, the moral superiority

We can't know obviously exactly who is above who and ranks and knowledge in this sense, but we can know "so and so, appears to be more knowledgeable and have great moral excellence".

Obviously, the knowledge of the book is directly related to politics, or Samuel would've not mention it as a criteria.

Therefore, we can conclude, that the scholars in general do their superior knowledge, have to make sure Islamic commands are implemented properly and because they have ability as leaders people look up to and that it belongs to one of the scholars. In the case of sermon of Mina, Imam Hussain (as) was showing it was not only his right being usurped, but in fact, his right as a scholar as well, which applied to all scholars.

Thus, he was try to rally them to lead people so to win back government for Ahlulbayt (as) on those grounds as well.

However, things go bad, when we interpret religion falsely. Thus a lot of Quran is so we only attribute God what we know! And also scholars is something for everyone to become!
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
A brief proof to this from Quran is the following:

[Yusufali 2:247] Their Prophet said to them: "Allah hath appointed Talut as king over you." They said: "How can he exercise authority over us when we are better fitted than he to exercise authority, and he is not even gifted, with wealth in abundance?" He said: "Allah hath Chosen him above you, and hath gifted him abundantly with knowledge and bodily prowess: Allah Granteth His authority to whom He pleaseth. Allah careth for all, and He knoweth all things."
وَقَالَ لَهُمْ نَبِيُّهُمْ إِنَّ آيَةَ مُلْكِهِ أَنْ يَأْتِيَكُمُ التَّابُوتُ فِيهِ سَكِينَةٌ مِنْ رَبِّكُمْ وَبَقِيَّةٌ مِمَّا تَرَكَ آلُ مُوسَىٰ وَآلُ هَارُونَ تَحْمِلُهُ الْمَلَائِكَةُ ۚ إِنَّ فِي ذَٰلِكَ لَآيَةً لَكُمْ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ مُؤْمِنِينَ {248}
[Yusufali 2:248] And (further) their Prophet said to them: "A Sign of his authority is that there shall come to you the Ark of the covenant, with (an assurance) therein of security from your Lord, and the relics left by the family of Moses and the family of Aaron, carried by angels. In this is a symbol for you if ye indeed have faith."



Now Prophet Samuel, his proofs for Talut, in fact, apply to him as well. But let's see if we can derive more from these verses.

The line "God has chosen him above you" is significant, because of moral excellence. In this case, God has manifested Talut (as) as a chosen King. The other line also argues further "increased in knowledge and physique". This alternative criteria.

The proof of Authority, of course, no one in particular has, like Talut, in this day in the age in the open.

But you can derive from this, that God over all wants:

all things equal, the one with more knowledge and more capability
all things equal, the moral superiority

We can't know obviously exactly who is above who and ranks and knowledge in this sense, but we can know "so and so, appears to be more knowledgeable and have great moral excellence".

Obviously, the knowledge of the book is directly related to politics, or Samuel would've not mention it as a criteria.

Therefore, we can conclude, that the scholars in general do their superior knowledge, have to make sure Islamic commands are implemented properly and because they have ability as leaders people look up to and that it belongs to one of the scholars. In the case of sermon of Mina, Imam Hussain (as) was showing it was not only his right being usurped, but in fact, his right as a scholar as well, which applied to all scholars.

Thus, he was try to rally them to lead people so to win back government for Ahlulbayt (as) on those grounds as well.

However, things go bad, when we interpret religion falsely. Thus a lot of Quran is so we only attribute God what we know! And also scholars is something for everyone to become!
Ok, so, their prophet said Allah appointed a King for them. But in our time, which king or leader God appointed for people? Who can confirm it?
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Ok, so, their prophet said Allah appointed a King for them. But in our time, which king or leader God appointed for people? Who can confirm it?

No one is appointed in public today, but the reasoning of why God chose him as a king, you can derive a lot from it as I already shown.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
No one is appointed in public today, but the reasoning of why God chose him as a king, you can derive a lot from it as I already shown.
Then if I make a conclusion from your posts, this is what I understand:

1. Nobody is appointed by God today as a leader.
2. It is not possible to prove or disprove if someone truely understands and follows Quran.

Question:

Then, if someone establishes an islamic state today, and claims to have the True Islamic Laws established and enforces laws of Islam on people according to his understanding, Is this allowed in the Quran?
 
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