Religion and science...enemies or friends ?!

[BruceDLimber]

Hi!

I second Booko's remarks.

Regards,

Bruce

 

[BruceDLimber]

Greetings!

I hate to challenge this because I wish it were true. But perhaps we shouldn't think that religion prevents us from putting our knowledge to destructive uses. For instance:

How did Christianity prevent . . .?
How did Judaism prevent . . .?
How did Islam prevent . . .?
How did Hinduism prevent . . .?

Ah, but your laundry list is incomplete:

I would be most interested in seeing you make any sort of analagous accusation about the Baha'i Faith, which Booko and I share.

There is, after all, eventual progress! . . .

Peace,

Bruce

 

[maro]

Well, two obvious options are: 1) dream up some myth about how the universe was created (such as all the myths in all the "holy books"), or 2) apply the scientific method to learn as much as one can.

what about about these two options ,
1)accept the messege from the creator ,and follow the prophets 2)reject it , out of arrogance and denial, so i choose the first , for it guarantees for me Paradise in the hereafter,and happiness in this life

Well, it depends on what you mean by "great power". For me, the sunrise "tells" me the scattering of light varies inversely with the fourth power of the wave length and therefore red light is scattered less than blue (demonstrating the "great power" of Maxwell's equations of electrodynamics); the beauty of some flowers "tells" me that natural selection stimulated the flower's DNA molecule to present an appearance especially attractive to pollinating insects (and therefore, the "great power" of evolution); and when it comes to the beauty and perfection of my grandchildren, it "tells" me of the "great power" of personal bias.

in real life , if you saw a beautiful painting , the first thing that will come to your mind is , who painted it ?

and if some one asked you isn't the beauty of this picture telling you something about the the one who painted it ,

what will be your answer ?

yes it tells me that he is a great artist who deserves respect , or
the picture was just made by itself , and its beauty tells me how the green colour is in harmony with the yellow for example ,
and how natural selection , cared about the details of the extremely perfect picture

Go easy! "Just to live for a while" is a very significant purpose!

i dare to disagree ,
if i was living just to live , and then die , it doesn't worth it

The DNA molecule "learned" (by natural selection) that its temporary hosts are rather insignificant.

the DNA molecule seems very intelligent to me

-- rather than consider themselves so important that the imagined creator of the universe, HIMself, is passionately interested in them! As someone else said, such religious nonsense is egotism gone beserk.

yes ,you are right ,this is what the religion teaches us ,
that we are so important that the creator himself ( who created us ,by the way )is interested in us

religion is honouring Man

he is not just a monkey , which (by evolution and natural selection ) became a man

and by the way , why haven't the other animals developed by natural selection , why are they still animals !!

Well, rather than laugh more, you may wish to investigate what is meant by "behavioral sciences" (anthropology, biology, criminology, ecology, economics,… psychology, psychiatry, political science, social science,....)

with all respect to your behavioural sciences , but they existed long time ago , and they haven't did any good to humanity ,
on the contrary , the more time passes , we turn from bad to worse and from one war to another ,

Well, actually, I doubt very much that I wrote that. Instead (as I demonstrate in my free, online book at www.zenofzero.net), I estimate the probability of any god to be very much less than 1 chance in a google (i.e., less than one chance in 10^100 -- and probably closer to one chance in 10^500).

and if this probability of your own , was the only clear truth ,that every thing in the universe is telling us about ,
and you was the one with the huge blind spot , who keep explaining everything in a funny way that fits with your denial to god ,

what will be your fate ?

-- were it not for the terrible harm that all organized religions have done (and continue to do) to humanity, and therefore, the great need to eradicate all of them.

you think religions did harm to humanity ?
No , religion is the only beam of light that can lighten our lives ,and keep humanity from all the suffering it is going through

it is not religion which did the harm , it is keeping away from religion

....science is the religion of adults."

good luck with your religion ,then

But otherwise, if you'll look into the principal "holy books", you'll see that they're loaded with threats, stimulating fear (e.g., of "eternal punishment").

yes you are right , the quran for example has many threats that stimulates fear , and many promises that stimulates hope as well ,
that's why it's God's mercy to man kind

Although data are available to support your assessment, yet on the one hand, it's a pity that you've been conditioned to accept that life is like studying for an exam (recall: "life isn't a problem to solve -- but a happening, to experience")

yes of course , life is the biggest exam itself , but unlike any other exam , if we failed ,there is no second chance to make up for the failure

and on the other hand, what I hope for you is that someday, soon, you will choose to study for 10 or 12 hours per day not because you're worried about an exam or threatened in some other manner, but because you want to learn.

i do like to learn ,
but some times i don't , when studying is the only right thing to do ,for the time
and honestly ,there is nothing on earth that can keep me studying ,except the exam
i force myself to study (because i can't take failure )

I hope that, on your own, you'll soon be able to find a better way to live what all evidence suggests is this sole opportunity that you'll have to experience your existence.

this is what all evidence suggest ,
the perfect beautiful universe ,the messege of the prophets , and my heart as well

But simultaneously I'd urge you not to worry about your own death (although do try to postpone it as long as possible!), for as I wrote in one of the poems in my book, "you can't be aware of a lack of awareness."

first , i can't postpone my death , when the time comes , there is nothing you can do ,
and i don't believe that death is a lack of awareness ,
rather ,it's the awareness itself

As a single example from a selection of thousands (if not millions), dolphins swim underneath their wounded cousins, lifting them to the surface periodically, so they can breathe.

that's why god hasn't send any books or prophets to dolphins or any other animals ,
because we are the only one who need guidance

thus by nature and by nurture, we acquire such "moral codes" --

so , why haven't we acquired that moral code yet , it's not a secret that billions of people were eradicated , bombed , tortured , and even worse ...

although we don't see dolphins eradicating each other , do we ?

That's a simple question to answer: not only because I haven't seen even the tiniest shred of data to support such silly speculations

look , around you , and you will find a lot of data ,
you know what is the only thing in this universe that is not going straight , and perfectly organized
it's the human life ,

some were born strong , and others weak ,some were born beautiful and others ugly ,
some were born rich , while others are starving to death ,

some are criminals , eradicating and humilitaing people without getting any punishment ,
while others may die for keeping their principals and morals ,

don't you think that all this mess need to be corrected ,

we are living in a universe were everything is going straight , the sun rotates in its orbit , so do the electrons of the atom ,
we are the only mess here ,

that's why the day will come to correct this mess

you know what day ? it's the judgment day

--rather than having created itself via a symmetry-breaking fluctuations in a total void. As I show in my book, the scientific support for the second alternative is quite compelling.

created itself ?
you know what i wish ? i wish to see you in the judgment day , and ask you if you still think the universe created itself or not ,
it's my sincere wish , really

[And as a postscript, perhaps I should mention that I do entertain the possibility that you live in a Muslim family (and/or a Muslim country) and therefore you possibly feel it to be necessary to write what you did (for fear of the con-artist clerics demanding that you be killed as an apostate, i.e., one who could potentially ruin their con game). If so, best wishes in your struggles to remain true to yourself.]

yes thanks god, i live in a muslim country and in a muslim family,
a great bless ,which i never knew how great it is untill i talked to people like you

 

[PolyHedral]

yes of course , life is the biggest exam itself , but unlike any other exam , if we failed ,there is no second chance to make up for the failure

Is Allah omnipotent? Because if he is, there's no point in a test, because he already knows the results.

 

[zoro]

Well, Maro, I wish you well.

 

[YmirGF]

what about about these two options: 1)accept the messege from the creator,and follow the prophets 2)reject it, out of arrogance and denial

I love the thinking that one who rejects the teaching of religion is considered to be the arrogant pup. To my thinking it is those who stand on the words of others, without thinking an original thought of their own, that display arrogance.

Merriam-Webster defines arrogance as:

: an attitude of superiority manifested in an overbearing manner or in presumptuous claims or assumptions

Curiously that definition describes religious folks much better that it describes the non-believer.

in real life, if you saw a beautiful painting, the first thing that will come to your mind is, who painted it ?

Um, incorrect. My first thought would be "Wow, nice work! I wonder how the artist did that." I don't think I have ever looked at a work of art and wondered who the artist was. That always comes later, for me at least.

and if some one asked you isn't the beauty of this picture telling you something about the the one who painted it, what will be your answer ?

Probably that the alleged artist is very talented, lol and has a beautiful grasp of reality dovetailed with the ability to express that grasp. But hey, that's just me. The picture or statue or whatever would in fact tell me NOTHING about the person who created it, other than the fact that they have a distinct ability to create something that makes me go, "Wow". I don't know their politics. I don't know what they like for dessert. I don't know their sexual preference. I don't know much about the artist at all, and it is ludicrous to assume much about the person from their work aside from they are a talented artist.

yes it tells me that he is a great artist who deserves respect or

the picture was just made by itself, and its beauty tells me how the green colour is in harmony with the yellow for example, and how natural selection, cared about the details of the extremely perfect picture

A flowery attempt to instill meaning where there is none. What you are describing is purely subjective. Some people think Jackson Pollock is a genius, whereas I would disagree.

i dare to disagree, if i was living just to live, and then die, it doesn't worth it

So, in effect, without religious values, life has no meaning. Is that what you are saying? If so, it would by default lend support to the misguided notion of killing the non-believer as their life, comparatively speaking, has no meaning as they have no religious values.

yes,you are right,this is what the religion teaches us, that we are so important that the creator himself ( who created us,by the way )is interested in us

religion is honouring Man he is not just a monkey, which (by evolution and natural selection ) became a man why haven't the other animals developed by natural selection, why are they still animals !!

To me, and perhaps any rational thinker, this exhibits a total arrogance on the part of the human animal. We are indeed animals and I need only turn on the evening news to confirm this premise. I agree with Zoro on this one, this is nothing more than pure and total egotism, gone berserk. When man sets himself up as the arbiter of all on the planet then he is in need of a reality check.

Aside from this, what exactly IS the problem with being the descendant of apes? Does it make us any less special or any less than what it is we already are? Why do we need to puff ourselves up in some deluded sense of moral superiority to the animal kingdom?

with all respect to your behavioural sciences, but they existed long time ago, and they haven't did any good to humanity

on the contrary, the more time passes, we turn from bad to worse and from one war to another

Come again? I notice you state "your behavioral sciences" which would indicate that you do not support the findings of those schools of thought. A mere self-described "student" is pooh-poohing such honored disciples as Zoro indicated above. That is rather breathtaking.
So there is nothing of any value in modern psychology? Nothing to Criminology? Zippo from the Social sciences? Anthropology? Biology? Ecology? Economics? Psychiatry? Political science. Or perhaps, are the only things of value items that do not disagree with the preconceived prejudices of man's religions?

and if this probability of your own, was the only clear truth,that every thing in the universe is telling us about, and you was the one with the huge blind spot, who keep explaining everything in a funny way that fits with your denial to god, what will be your fate ?

Ahhh, the "big stick" approach of religion. Could it be that those who suffer from religious zeal are the ones with the "huge blind spot, who keep explaining everything in a funny way that fits with their denial" of reality? What will be your fate if you are the one who is wrong? Will you not have wasted your entire life following an illusion only to end up feeling a bit foolish in the end? What if your particular book is wrong? We'll see who has the last laugh.

you think religions did harm to humanity? No, religion is the only beam of light that can lighten our lives,and keep humanity from all the suffering it is going through it is not religion which did the harm, it is keeping away from religion

Absolute statements tend to show one thing and one thing only and that is that they are wrong. The only beam of light? If it weren't for so many people doing "god's will" I rather suspect that we would be a lot better off. So far, they have not managed to solve virtually ANY of man's problems. If anything man's foolish religions seem to simply rub salt in his own self-created wounds.

good luck with your religion,then

So, science bad... religion good? Oddly your own prophet enjoined his followers to seek knowledge but then again that knowledge is not to conflict with his "revealed" words, so one can only wonder how useful such seeking could be. I don't believe he said "self-serving" knowledge.

yes you are right, the quran for example has many threats that stimulates fear, and many promises that stimulates hope as well, that's why it's God's mercy to man kind

Sadly, the words about Hellfire and fearing a wrathful god do not have ANY impact on this small mortal. In fact, they take away from the good stuff that is described and make me wonder how realistic the promises are to begin with. In effect, it was a pretty sad marketing concept that may have worked 1400 years ago and for less intelligent people even now, but some of us are not swayed by such trifles.

yes of course, life is the biggest exam itself, but unlike any other exam, if we failed,there is no second chance to make up for the failure

Frankly speaking, if following the words of "the messenger" are required to gain access to "paradise" then I am, for one, not interested in being with such people.

i do like to learn, but some times i don't ... (because i can't take failure )

You cannot "take" the idea that you might be wrong; it is therefore not a huge surprise that you stay with a belief system that is so binding and clear cut. If only reality was so cut and dried -- or so black and white.

that's why god hasn't send any books or prophets to dolphins or any other animals, because we are the only one who need guidance.

How odd it is that such a noble being that is so much better than mere animals requires a rule book. Doesn't that seem strange to you?

don't you think that all this mess need to be corrected,

The simple fact is that things are getting better with each moment that passes. Perhaps you are just fixated on the negatives in life.

we are living in a universe were everything is going straight, the sun rotates in its orbit, so do the electrons of the atom, we are the only mess here,

that's why the day will come to correct this mess

The only "mess" resides in the minds of some people... ok... many people, as they prefer to live in a pretend reality instead of the real world. Aside from that if indeed we live in such a perfect universe, other than man of course, that would seem to indicate that we too are working perfectly...

you know what i wish ? i wish to see you in the judgment day, and ask you if you still think the universe created itself or not, it's my sincere wish, really

So you desperately hope for the destruction of all that is not of your faith. Now that is cheery thinking. You prefer to allow god to come and clean up our mess, to reward the righteous and to consign the vile to the pits of the Hellfire? Is this supposed to be a helpful outlook? I'm dying to hear. Honest.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Just peeking in to say that as a part of our tradition, science is extremely important as weighing observational analysis and empirical data to come to a conclusion - that should be tested..........again.........and again..........and again.



To paraphrase the Dalai Lama - If science ever proves something wrong from the Dharma (such as reincarnation/rebirth), then we must throw out that doctrine. Buddhism is based on reality.



We can't practice something that can't be practical, in other words.



So, yes. As far as I'm concerned, religion and science MUST be friends. Others have expressed their reasons why far more eloquently than I.



Peace,
Mystic

 

[Random]

To paraphrase the Dalai Lama - If science ever proves something wrong from the Dharma (such as reincarnation/rebirth), then we must throw out that doctrine. Buddhism is based on reality.

The real problem with this, obviously, in the real world and the terms thereof (human failings), is that some Corporate-sponsored Scientist desperate to impress his paymasters of earn a grant from the government will say there is or can be no soul/eternal flame to reincarnate (the materialistic view), and this becomes popular amongst "peers" so Buddhism duly notes this new "consensus" and throws out an age-old Truth in favour of having their Llama hob-knob with the so-called "intellectual elite" of the scientific world: short-term worldly gain for the long-term price of salvation for many Buddhists.

How would one feel about the DL's "brave" statement then, Mystic? Or anybody?

 

[maro]

I love the thinking that one who rejects the teaching of religion is considered to be the arrogant pup

i believe that i am a slave of god , who has to submit to him , and that i am made of clay , and i am going back to it ,
i am nothing except what god made me , i have nothing except what god granted me, i can't find my way unless god guide me ,....
and if there is a tiny spot of arrogance in my heart , i am asking him to help me get rid of it

Um, incorrect. My first thought would be "Wow, nice work! I wonder how the artist did that." I don't think I have ever looked at a work of art and wondered who the artist was. That always comes later, for me at least.

so , logically there must be an artist , it can't be made by itself ,
and the picture tells you that he is a talented one

So, in effect, without religious values, life has no meaning. Is that what you are saying? If so, it would by default lend support to the misguided notion of killing the non-believer as their life, comparatively speaking, has no meaning as they have no religious values.

without my religious values , life will have no meaning to me

but i am sure that you can find your own meaning of life ,without religion , and actually it's not my job to judge you ,
have i ever said we should kill the non believers ? why do you put words in my mouth?

Why do we need to puff ourselves up in some deluded sense of moral superiority to the animal kingdom?

lol ! because we are superior to the animal kingdom , we are the kings of this planet , and no animal (no matter how much it developed) can never compete with us , don't you think ?

So there is nothing of any value in modern psychology? Nothing to Criminology? Zippo from the Social sciences? Anthropology? Biology? Ecology? Economics? Psychiatry? Political science. Or perhaps, are the only things of value items that do not disagree with the preconceived prejudices of man's religions?

did i said there is nothing of any value in them , in my op i said (science is the enemy of superstion , and the most intimate friend to religion ) , remember ?

which means i am not against science , i am against making science a god that can solve all our problems , which is obiviously not true

We'll see who has the last laugh.

yes , you are right

If it weren't for so many people doing "god's will" I rather suspect that we would be a lot better off. So far, they have not managed to solve virtually ANY of man's problems.

no, there aren't so many people doing god's will ,
i am sure if there were , we would have managed to solve all Man's problems

So, science bad... religion good? Oddly your own prophet enjoined his followers to seek knowledge but then again that knowledge is not to conflict with his "revealed" words, so one can only wonder how useful such seeking could be. I don't believe he said "self-serving" knowledge.

Again , have i said science is bad ? , yes , my religion encourages me to seek knowledge ,
and i don't believe science is able to bring any fact that contradicts what the prophets told us ,

In effect, it was a pretty sad marketing concept that may have worked 1400 years ago and for less intelligent people even now, but some of us are not swayed by such trifles.

lol ! i am just one of those less intelligent people who believe in such trifles ,but don't worry ,natural selection will certainly choose the most intelligent people like you ,as it "natural selction " is very intelligent itself

How odd it is that such a noble being that is so much better than mere animals requires a rule book. Doesn't that seem strange to you?

no it doesn't , we are better than animals because we have a mind and free choice ,
that's why exactly we need a rule book to guide us

The simple fact is that things are getting better with each moment that passes. Perhaps you are just fixated on the negatives in life.

the simple fact ? you are funny , are't you ?
wars , poverty ,injustice ,depression , increasing suicide rates , diseases , torn families, criminals ,alcoholism ,prostitutuion, people selling their organs .....

all this because we deviated from the road we should have taken ,

no ,things r not getting better , they are getting worse

Aside from that if indeedwe live in such a perfect universe, other than man of course, that would seem to indicate that we too are working perfectly...

no comment

So you desperately hope for the destruction of all that is not of your faith. Now that is cheery thinking. You prefer to allow god to come and clean up our mess, to reward the righteous and to consign the vile to the pits of the Hellfire? Is this supposed to be a helpful outlook? I'm dying to hear. Honest.

no, , what i hope for my self and all people , is guidance ,and the last thing i ever want is to see the destruction of anyone

you know , when the people of makka caused harm to the prophet (PBUH), one of his followers asked him to ask god to take revenge on them ,

he said no , i was not sent to curse people , i was sent as a mercy

 

[maro]

Is Allah omnipotent? Because if he is, there's no point in a test, because he already knows the results.

yes god is omnipotent , and yes he knows the results ,

but he gave us free choice ,he granted us a mind that makes us the masters of this planet ...,

he sent the prophets to guide us ,

and that's why we are going to be judged for our choices in this life

 

[love]

Science, or the study of physical nature has not changed or added to one law of nature that did not exist from the beginning. I think that man's "religion" has at times been a hinderance to mans advancement in his knowledge of nature.
When the religious leaders of Europe ruled they were in the "Dark Ages" while the Muslims were making tremendous advances in medicine, algerbra, and science. It seems that today in countries where the religious leaders rule and try to control thought there is very little advancement made. God put these laws and principles in to place from the beginning and man's wisdom is still foolishness to him.

 

[gnostic]

As long as religion don't think their books are science, and science don't think they are religion, then there should be no problem. The problem lies with religion thinking that it has basis on facts and proof, particularly in the scientific sphere.

In the West, religion was a hinder to progress, as love have stated in his post. I think Newton (and others as well) could have done far more if he didn't have to fear the Church.

I like to see them remain separate. Let's religion deal with the spiritual and theology, but leave science alone.

 

[robtex]

Science doesn't like or dislike religions, it's the religions who have the preferences.

I concur and would add that it is religion that keeps pushing for a debate that science and its members don't seem to have much interest in. You never have scientist storming a church ready to debate priests or pastors on evolution vs id. You just have religious folks always ready to debate organic sciences with the illusion that the other side has any interest in their debate.

Science and Religion are 2 sides to the same coin. Just 2 different perspectives...science and religion both should strengthen your understanding for God and the Universe...For they are One

In philosophy this is called a fase dichotomy. You create two opposites and assume present the idea both are used to find God. Science is apathic to the existance of God. Biology says there is no such thing as inorganic life. Science doesnt' care about your or anyone elses religion but only in emperical, evidencable data. Nothing less nothing more.

Paths to finding God could be another debate but the answer is not "science and religion"

In regards to the OP "religion and science..enemies or friends: I would offer up

science = apathy towards God and religion until such time that evidnece exists for "God

religion = enemy of science in instances were dogmatic ideas contrict scientific theories.

 

[maro]

Science, or the study of physical nature has not changed or added to one law of nature that did not exist from the beginning.

this is what i think too , god has made fixed rules for this universe ,
and science is only a tool to discover some of these rules , and use them for our benefit ,

I think that man's "religion" has at times been a hinderance to mans advancement in his knowledge of nature.
When the religious leaders of Europe ruled they were in the "Dark Ages" while the Muslims were making tremendous advances in medicine, algerbra, and science.

if you mean that the muslims did advances at that time because religion was not applied,that will be exactly the opposite of the truth ,
muslims advanced in sciences only when they were applying religion fully and in a practical way (a way of life )
but when they started to separate religion from other life aspects , they moved backwards

It seems that today in countries where the religious leaders rule and try to control thought there is very little advancement made. .

if you mean by this , the islamic countries , that will be the opposit of the truth again , because all islamic countries or( most of them ) are having a secular rule , nowadays

 

[love]

if you mean by this , the islamic countries , that will be the opposit of the truth again , because all islamic countries or( most of them ) are having a secular rule , nowadays[/quote] Maybe I should have just said leaders. For example, the Chinese Cultural Revolution. It seems to me that any time a group of leaders, be it religious or political tries to completely dominate a societie's thoughts or beliefs, civilization suffers because the leaders interpretations can possibly be corupt, and are definitly fallable.