Religion and works

[Mr Cheese]

But perhaps I could use this oppurtunity to point something out to you Mr. Cheese, if I may. You said the Buddha returned to where he came from. In Mahayana we believe this to be the Golden Land or Pure Land of the Cosmic Buddha and the gods and blessed Bodhisattvas who have ascended. We believe the Cosmic Buddha is the one supreme force from which all the gods eminate, that being said, you have said previously that the gods are at times petty and bind people to this lower existence. Can you not see that the Buddha is accomplishing it's will and purpose through the gods as he is through all life? The gods taught people things like the way of Ma'at, the universal way, the Tao, etc. these are all the same as the way of the dharma. The way of the dharma is the original nature of all things before disorder and chaos arose. The gods told the Egyptians of a time called Zep-Tepi "the first time" in which all things lived in accordance with the way of Ma'at and her precepts. The universal cosmic Buddha is accomplishing his will through all things, even the gods. Consider what I just said.

I understand and agree....

I would however ague said Gods are essentially ways to conceptualize that which is beyond conception

Thomasine (ala Gospel of thomas and related texts and groups) often label this as the light lands....

remember...

the map is not the territory

"
The foolish reject what they see, not what they think;
the wise reject what they think, not what they see."
— Huang Po


Happy Easter

 

[SugaCubez352]

I dont see how a thredeva buddhist can reject the four noble truths, it would be like a christian worshipping Odin instead of Jesus....

And what exactly do you base this view point of yours on? How much of the Pali Canon have you read? How many of the 24,000 pages of the Tipitikas have you read?

Are you telling me that 2500 years ago the Buddha taught his teachings in British English?

Or perhaps that when his dialect of Pali was INTERPRETED into English - by which you have come to understand it - certain things were misinterpreted.

I speak Khmer which has a lot of Pali words in it. My elders are fluent in Pali. I don't need some English translation. Thus perhaps I reject the ENGLISH TRANSLATION and resulting MISUNDERSTANDING of the Four Noble Truths? In the same sense that a Muslim can reject misunderstandings of Islamic teachings due to incorrect translation of Arabic into English. The Buddha did not speak and think in English.

Thus I asked you to present to me the Four Noble Truths that you have read, to see what exact translation you are working with.

Ignorance does not Equal fact. You being ignorant of certain things the Buddha said (in Theravada) does not mean the Buddha did not admonish his disciples to even question his words and teachings.

All it takes is a little research and googling and understanding of basic Theravada principles.

Again I ask you what does Zen and your interpretation of Buddhism have anything to do with me and Theravada Buddhism?

BTW: "thredeva[sic]" = THERAVADA.

 

[TheKnight]

I am pretty sure Noahides are not required to keep kosher

We arent...but there are certain dietary requirements.

Yes, your views on homosexuality for instance have demonstrated this..arguably

My views on homosexuality are far from extreme.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

I mean, I know about the Noahide movement knight. Maybe you haven't seen in some of my posts. I am a secular Jew. I come from a Jewish background, but I don't and have never practiced Judaism. It doesn't interest me much. I know what it teaches I just don't believe it, nor do I think I am obligated to.

 

[berrychrisc]

What happens when a religion following a said religious figure becomes corrupt though, like I believe has happened with Christianity?

Then the responsibility falls upon those that follow the spirit of Christ's message to remove themselves from the corrupt institution and live as Jesus said to live. Christianity is not owned by some organization. It is a path to God as taught by Jesus. As Jesus said, "true worshippers will worship the Father in Spirit and truth, and indeed the Father seeks such people to worship Him."

 

[TheKnight]

I mean, I know about the Noahide movement knight. Maybe you haven't seen in some of my posts. I am a secular Jew. I come from a Jewish background, but I don't and have never practiced Judaism. It doesn't interest me much. I know what it teaches I just don't believe it, nor do I think I am obligated to.

To be honest these are the first of your posts I've ever seen. I'm sorry for the misunderstanding.

 

[Mr Cheese]

And what exactly do you base this view point of yours on? How much of the Pali Canon have you read? How many of the 24,000 pages of the Tipitikas have you read?

Are you telling me that 2500 years ago the Buddha taught his teachings in British English?

Or perhaps that when his dialect of Pali was INTERPRETED into English - by which you have come to understand it - certain things were misinterpreted.

I speak Khmer which has a lot of Pali words in it. My elders are fluent in Pali. I don't need some English translation. Thus perhaps I reject the ENGLISH TRANSLATION and resulting MISUNDERSTANDING of the Four Noble Truths? In the same sense that a Muslim can reject misunderstandings of Islamic teachings due to incorrect translation of Arabic into English. The Buddha did not speak and think in English.

Thus I asked you to present to me the Four Noble Truths that you have read, to see what exact translation you are working with.

Ignorance does not Equal fact. You being ignorant of certain things the Buddha said (in Theravada) does not mean the Buddha did not admonish his disciples to even question his words and teachings.

All it takes is a little research and googling and understanding of basic Theravada principles.

Again I ask you what does Zen and your interpretation of Buddhism have anything to do with me and Theravada Buddhism?

BTW: "thredeva[sic]" = THERAVADA.

you mix satanism with theravada

nothing more needs to be said

 

[Rainbow Mage]

What I'd like to know is when did Theravada first start to become atheistic? Has it always been that way? I would hardly think so. I've read many books of Buddhist legends and folklore about gods and Bodhisattvas, and some of them are Theravadan legends.

 

[SugaCubez352]

you mix satanism with theravada

nothing more needs to be said

Again, you prove yourself incapable of reading, researching, and understanding what you read. You misunderstand things and believe that your misunderstandings are real.

What makes you think I am a "Satanist?"

People helping strangers out... what?! That's just unsatanic!

This is an example of why I really hate Satanism. These Satanists get so lost and caught up in their reactionary beliefs by trying to be anti and un-christian as possible that their beliefs prevents them from being human.

They fail to realize that their beliefs or rather them losing their humanness in BELIEF makes them as far removed from Real Life and being Human as a wack-job Christian Evangelist.

There is NOTHING wrong with being human; it is human to like other people. It is human to help others out... or its a noble or refined quality certain people innately have.

Empathy, and helping others out in some way has nothing to do with a memeplex, a belief system, a belief pattern, an ideology, a political platform, or religion. It's just human... we are social organisms, not solitary creature.

There is something very wrong with your frontal lobes if you lack this basic Human nature of feeling a connection for others or just wanting to be nice to your elders.

This belief or attitude that a Satanist should hate and not help strangers and others is just one more despicable quality about Satanism.

Nobody in the ONA is asking any Satanist to crawl out of their make-believe hermitage to adopt a tribal life way of life and care for others... that's asking for to much. If you wanna pretend like you are some solitary badger living in your own hole in the ground who don't need or care for anyone cuz that makes you feel special, then keep at it. If this quality of the ONA confuses you, then you know nothing about the ONA.

There are some of us alive who still are Human... who are mature enough mentally and emotionally to not let abstract belief patterns control our lives.

Actually I went to China Town today in Down Town LA and gave a Chinese bum $10 and a bag of new clothes I bought... I figured I might as well start collecting kudos with the Chinese since they will be our overlords in 25 years. I'm safe though, I'm half Chinese anyways.

This is what happened when your crappy religion is the causal result of a reactionary memeplex of Christianity... Satanists end up going to the other Extreme of the spectrum.

These satanists don't realize that they are off center. That both Christianity and Satanism are extreme swings of the pendulum.

The Tao is where the pendulum rests effortlessly... that center is where one's Humanness is found in its undefiled state. - Source: http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/left-hand-path-religions-dir/91384-order-nine-angles-7.html

All it takes is a little reading and some reading comprehension.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

I'd say Buddhism and Satanism are incompatable as dual paths, simply because they are the anti-thesis of one another. Satanism says not to care about who you hurt as long as you please yourself, to make your life about appeasing your every carnal desire. Such concepts are totally opposed to Buddhism. In Buddhism you become selfless, you become balanced in experiencing pleasure, and you worry about how your actions effect others always.

 

[SugaCubez352]

nothing more needs to be said

You need to grow up someday and be big boy enough to do your own research. I'll give you a translation of the four noble truths by Thanissaro Bhikkhu:

***partial quote***

I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying at Varanasi in the Game Refuge at Isipatana. There he addressed the group of five monks:


"There are these two extremes that are not to be indulged in by one who has gone forth. Which two? That which is devoted to sensual pleasure with reference to sensual objects: base, vulgar, common, ignoble, unprofitable; and that which is devoted to self-affliction: painful, ignoble, unprofitable. Avoiding both of these extremes, the middle way realized by the Tathagata — producing vision, producing knowledge — leads to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding.


"And what is the middle way realized by the Tathagata that — producing vision, producing knowledge — leads to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding? Precisely this Noble Eightfold Path: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. This is the middle way realized by the Tathagata that — producing vision, producing knowledge — leads to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding.


"Now this, monks, is the noble truth of stress: 1 Birth is stressful, aging is stressful, death is stressful; sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are stressful; association with the unbeloved is stressful, separation from the loved is stressful, not getting what is wanted is stressful. In short, the five clinging-aggregates are stressful.


"And this, monks, is the noble truth of the origination of stress: the craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there — i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming.


"And this, monks, is the noble truth of the cessation of stress: the remainderless fading & cessation, renunciation, relinquishment, release, & letting go of that very craving.


"And this, monks, is the noble truth of the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress: precisely this Noble Eightfold Path — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration.


"Vision arose, insight arose, discernment arose, knowledge arose, illumination arose within me with regard to things never heard before: 'This is the noble truth of stress'... 'This noble truth of stress is to be comprehended'... 'This noble truth of stress has been comprehended.'


"Vision arose, insight arose, discernment arose, knowledge arose, illumination arose within me with regard to things never heard before: 'This is the noble truth of the origination of stress'... 'This noble truth of the origination of stress is to be abandoned' 2 ... 'This noble truth of the origination of stress has been abandoned.'


"Vision arose, insight arose, discernment arose, knowledge arose, illumination arose within me with regard to things never heard before: 'This is the noble truth of the cessation of stress'... 'This noble truth of the cessation of stress is to be directly experienced'... 'This noble truth of the cessation of stress has been directly experienced.'


"Vision arose, insight arose, discernment arose, knowledge arose, illumination arose within me with regard to things never heard before: 'This is the noble truth of the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress'... 'This noble truth of the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress is to be developed'... 'This noble truth of the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress has been developed.' 3

***end quote***

Source: Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta: Setting the Wheel of Dhamma in Motion (SN 56.11)

 

[Mr Cheese]

You need to grow up someday and be big boy enough to do your own research. I'll give you a translation of the four noble truths by Thanissaro Bhikkhu:

***partial quote***

I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying at Varanasi in the Game Refuge at Isipatana. There he addressed the group of five monks:


"There are these two extremes that are not to be indulged in by one who has gone forth. Which two? That which is devoted to sensual pleasure with reference to sensual objects: base, vulgar, common, ignoble, unprofitable; and that which is devoted to self-affliction: painful, ignoble, unprofitable. Avoiding both of these extremes, the middle way realized by the Tathagata — producing vision, producing knowledge — leads to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding.


"And what is the middle way realized by the Tathagata that — producing vision, producing knowledge — leads to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding? Precisely this Noble Eightfold Path: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. This is the middle way realized by the Tathagata that — producing vision, producing knowledge — leads to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding.


"Now this, monks, is the noble truth of stress: 1 Birth is stressful, aging is stressful, death is stressful; sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are stressful; association with the unbeloved is stressful, separation from the loved is stressful, not getting what is wanted is stressful. In short, the five clinging-aggregates are stressful.


"And this, monks, is the noble truth of the origination of stress: the craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there — i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming.


"And this, monks, is the noble truth of the cessation of stress: the remainderless fading & cessation, renunciation, relinquishment, release, & letting go of that very craving.


"And this, monks, is the noble truth of the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress: precisely this Noble Eightfold Path — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration.


"Vision arose, insight arose, discernment arose, knowledge arose, illumination arose within me with regard to things never heard before: 'This is the noble truth of stress'... 'This noble truth of stress is to be comprehended'... 'This noble truth of stress has been comprehended.'


"Vision arose, insight arose, discernment arose, knowledge arose, illumination arose within me with regard to things never heard before: 'This is the noble truth of the origination of stress'... 'This noble truth of the origination of stress is to be abandoned' 2 ... 'This noble truth of the origination of stress has been abandoned.'


"Vision arose, insight arose, discernment arose, knowledge arose, illumination arose within me with regard to things never heard before: 'This is the noble truth of the cessation of stress'... 'This noble truth of the cessation of stress is to be directly experienced'... 'This noble truth of the cessation of stress has been directly experienced.'


"Vision arose, insight arose, discernment arose, knowledge arose, illumination arose within me with regard to things never heard before: 'This is the noble truth of the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress'... 'This noble truth of the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress is to be developed'... 'This noble truth of the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress has been developed.' 3

***end quote***

Source: Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta: Setting the Wheel of Dhamma in Motion (SN 56.11)

this is some nonsensical justification to prove that theredeva buddhism is satanic?

:sarcastic

...it has bells on

the Raelian religion and Shinto and its new offbreed: Shraelianito
Next on Oprah

 

[Mr Cheese]

Again, you prove yourself incapable of reading, researching, and understanding what you read. You misunderstand things and believe that your misunderstandings are real.

What makes you think I am a "Satanist?"



All it takes is a little reading and some reading comprehension.

ok, LHP.....

left hand path....

:sarcastic dont tell me, thats changed too?

:areyoucra

"Now, man, I was trained in Judo by the great Bert. Using the body as a counter-pivot to displace the opponent, I use the great Bert's method of throwing the opponent to his death! Be warned, Moriarty, one false move and you die by Bert's method!"

--Peter Sellers (The Goon SHow)

 

[SugaCubez352]

this is some nonsensical justification to prove that theredeva buddhism is satanic?

:sarcastic

...it has bells on

the Raelian religion and Shinto and its new offbreed: Shraelianito
Next on Oprah

This is how you back yourself up? By making allegations and producing ad hominem attacks?

It makes no difference what you are accusing me of being. The fact remains that you do not understand what you read, and that you believe the Buddha spoke English.

People helping strangers out... what?! That's just unsatanic!

This is an example of why I really hate Satanism. These Satanists get so lost and caught up in their reactionary beliefs by trying to be anti and un-christian as possible that their beliefs prevents them from being human.

They fail to realize that their beliefs or rather them losing their humanness in BELIEF makes them as far removed from Real Life and being Human as a wack-job Christian Evangelist.

There is NOTHING wrong with being human; it is human to like other people. It is human to help others out... or its a noble or refined quality certain people innately have.

Empathy, and helping others out in some way has nothing to do with a memeplex, a belief system, a belief pattern, an ideology, a political platform, or religion. It's just human... we are social organisms, not solitary creature.

There is something very wrong with your frontal lobes if you lack this basic Human nature of feeling a connection for others or just wanting to be nice to your elders.

This belief or attitude that a Satanist should hate and not help strangers and others is just one more despicable quality about Satanism.

Nobody in the ONA is asking any Satanist to crawl out of their make-believe hermitage to adopt a tribal life way of life and care for others... that's asking for to much. If you wanna pretend like you are some solitary badger living in your own hole in the ground who don't need or care for anyone cuz that makes you feel special, then keep at it. If this quality of the ONA confuses you, then you know nothing about the ONA.

There are some of us alive who still are Human... who are mature enough mentally and emotionally to not let abstract belief patterns control our lives.

Actually I went to China Town today in Down Town LA and gave a Chinese bum $10 and a bag of new clothes I bought... I figured I might as well start collecting kudos with the Chinese since they will be our overlords in 25 years. I'm safe though, I'm half Chinese anyways.

This is what happened when your crappy religion is the causal result of a reactionary memeplex of Christianity... Satanists end up going to the other Extreme of the spectrum.

These satanists don't realize that they are off center. That both Christianity and Satanism are extreme swings of the pendulum.

The Tao is where the pendulum rests effortlessly... that center is where one's Humanness is found in its undefiled state. - Source: http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/left-hand-path-religions-dir/91384-order-nine-angles-7.html

 

[Mr Cheese]

This is how you back yourself up? By making allegations and producing ad hominem attacks?

It makes no difference what you are accusing me of being. The fact remains that you do not understand what you read, and that you believe the Buddha spoke English.

um...you yourself have stated you consider yourself to be LHP

in the LHP forum.... that is why you post there...

If you consider using your own words as an adhominem attack, fine....

I don't....

"and that you believe the Buddha spoke English" <---this is hilarious

why not go to the buddhist forum explain the premises of the LHP and how its compatible with theredeva buddhism?


:sarcastic

Does this mean we shall have to have pelican for dinner again?

--Goons

 

[SugaCubez352]

ok, LHP.....

left hand path....

:sarcastic dont tell me, thats changed too?

:areyoucra

"Now, man, I was trained in Judo by the great Bert. Using the body as a counter-pivot to displace the opponent, I use the great Bert's method of throwing the opponent to his death! Be warned, Moriarty, one false move and you die by Bert's method!"

--Peter Sellers (The Goon SHow)

Do you usually change the subject when you can't back your position like this?

The subject you and I originally started off with was the four noble truths... my rejection of the four noble truths... you said that is impossible... I said it is possible due to mistranslations and thus MISUNDERSTANDINGS and misapprehensions of Buddhism on the part of the westerner...

Rather than continue intelligently with that original subject or either admit you misunderstand Buddhism, you change the subject and play games with me?

You lack the intelligence and maturity to engage it an intelligent debate/conversation. Do it make you feel better - save face somehow - to conduct your smear campaign to make me look bad... as you have made yourself look in this thread?

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Suga Cubez, just curious, why are you always so defensive? This isn't me criticizing you, more like healthy reproving, it is not becoming a Buddhist to be so defensive. Lord Buddha said that people are often inconsiderate. You should just let them be and retain a calm state of indifference.

 

[Mr Cheese]

Do you usually change the subject when you can't back your position like this?

The subject you and I originally started off with was the four noble truths... my rejection of the four noble truths... you said that is impossible... I said it is possible due to mistranslations and thus MISUNDERSTANDINGS and misapprehensions of Buddhism on the part of the westerner...

Rather than continue intelligently with that original subject or either admit you misunderstand Buddhism, you change the subject and play games with me?

You lack the intelligence and maturity to engage it an intelligent debate/conversation. Do it make you feel better - save face somehow - to conduct your smear campaign to make me look bad... as you have made yourself look in this thread?

theredeva buddhism is a left hand path now?

I learn somethign new everyday..I guess I'm just stoopid

 

[Mr Cheese]

Suga Cubez, just curious, why are you always so defensive? This isn't me criticizing you, more like healthy reproving, it is not becoming a Buddhist to be so defensive. Lord Buddha said that people are often inconsiderate. You should just let them be and retain a calm state of indifference.

But if you do not find an intelligent companion, a wise and
well-behaved person going the same way as yourself, then go on your way
alone, like a king abandoning a conquered kingdom, or like a great elephant in
the deep forest.

–Buddha


For you I shall wait above in the chariot of water,
on the moon, my resting place until the world is saved,
and always send down help to you.
Whoever strikes you, do not strike back`.
Whoever hates you, do not hate back.
Whoever envies you, do not envy again.
Whoever strikes you with anger, always return him with kindness,
and what you deplore in others do not yourself do.
No, you must endure insults and abuses
from those of higher station, from equals and those below,
because you who are devout and endure will not waver.
If someone throws flowers against an elephant,
these flowers cannot smash an elephant.
If raindrops fall on a stone,
these raindrops cannot melt the stone.
So insults and abuses can in no way make the devout
and of good endurance waver.


—attributed to Mani (who some sources cite was a Buddha)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mani_(prophet)
The Order of Nazorean Essenes

 

[SugaCubez352]

Suga Cubez, just curious, why are you always so defensive? This isn't me criticizing you, more like healthy reproving, it is not becoming a Buddhist to be so defensive. Lord Buddha said that people are often inconsiderate. You should just let them be and retain a calm state of indifference.

True dat. Good point.

My conversation with Mr. Cheese is over unless he can intelligently state in his own words what Buddhism is and what the four noble truths are.

You're alright Yosef