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Religion Before Telescopes

Neo Deist

Th.D. & D.Div. h.c.
Early humans did not have telescopes, as the telescope was not invented until the 16th century CE. Scholars are not quite sure who exactly made the first one, but a Dutch eyeglass maker named Hans Lippershey was the first to apply for a patent, and is often credited with the invention. Prior to this invention, religions typically viewed Earth as the center of creation.

Geocentricity (earth centric creation) was the reigning religious concept for centuries. God created everything for our benefit on Earth, to include the sun, moon and stars. Little did those early, primitive, uneducated people know that earth was not the center of creation. It took Galileo pointing a telescope at the night sky to have an "uh oh" moment. He challenged the claim of geocentricity and the Roman Catholic Church put him on trial for heresy, because the concept of the Earth not being the center of creation destroyed many religious tenets.

The truth is that the Earth is not the center of creation, which anyone with half a brain knows. It is not the center of our solar system, as that spot goes to our sun. We are not even at the center of our galaxy. And our galaxy is one of hundreds of billions in the known universe. We are a mere spec in the grand scheme of things.

Early humans did not know any of this because they couldn't. Yes there are cultures that tracked the stars, seasons, moon cycles, etc. But those cultures had no way of viewing anything out in the cosmos beyond what the human eye could see.

If you stand on the Earth, the sky appears to move around it. As does the sun, the moon and the stars. For those that did not know any better, it would appear as if the Earth was at the very center. It would make sense for various religious mythologies to develop based on that concept because that's all they knew! It is the same reason that early people believed the Earth was flat, and if you traveled too far you would fall off the edge.

The point of all this is that you can't apply modern day logic to religions that were created long ago. You have to put yourself in the mindset of someone who had no clue what a comet was. Or a meteorite. Or a star that went supernova. They had no clue what caused an earthquake (wrath of the gods!), or why some people fell to the ground convulsing (demonic possession...nah, just epilepsy).

We are far more educated than those people. Let's act like it.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
Early humans did not have telescopes, as the telescope was not invented until the 16th century CE. Scholars are not quite sure who exactly made the first one, but a Dutch eyeglass maker named Hans Lippershey was the first to apply for a patent, and is often credited with the invention. Prior to this invention, religions typically viewed Earth as the center of creation.

Geocentricity (earth centric creation) was the reigning religious concept for centuries. God created everything for our benefit on Earth, to include the sun, moon and stars. Little did those early, primitive, uneducated people know that earth was not the center of creation. It took Galileo pointing a telescope at the night sky to have an "uh oh" moment. He challenged the claim of geocentricity and the Roman Catholic Church put him on trial for heresy, because the concept of the Earth not being the center of creation destroyed many religious tenets.

The truth is that the Earth is not the center of creation, which anyone with half a brain knows. It is not the center of our solar system, as that spot goes to our sun. We are not even at the center of our galaxy. And our galaxy is one of hundreds of billions in the known universe. We are a mere spec in the grand scheme of things.

Early humans did not know any of this because they couldn't. Yes there are cultures that tracked the stars, seasons, moon cycles, etc. But those cultures had no way of viewing anything out in the cosmos beyond what the human eye could see.

If you stand on the Earth, the sky appears to move around it. As does the sun, the moon and the stars. For those that did not know any better, it would appear as if the Earth was at the very center. It would make sense for various religious mythologies to develop based on that concept because that's all they knew! It is the same reason that early people believed the Earth was flat, and if you traveled too far you would fall off the edge.

You've so far been using long outdated terms like "primitive" to refer to people who lived only a few centuries ago, which you're also describing as "early." So, forgive me for clarifying: by these "early" people who believed in the flat Earth, by chance you're not referring to those contemporaries of Columbus, are you?

The point of all this is that you can't apply modern day logic to religions that were created long ago. You have to put yourself in the mindset of someone who had no clue what a comet was. Or a meteorite. Or a star that went supernova. They had no clue what caused an earthquake (wrath of the gods!), or why some people fell to the ground convulsing (demonic possession...nah, just epilepsy).

We are far more educated than those people. Let's act like it.

Something I'm coming to terms with is that there seems to be little to no correlation to number-of-geeky-factoids-we-can-parrott, and general behavior.

Sure, most people generally know that Earth is round, but how many know that it's not a perfect circle? We know Earth orbits Sun, but how many know that it's also not a perfect circle? We still seem as capable of misunderstanding and oversimplifying all this knowledge as ever, so I seriously question the elitist notion that we're somehow "better" people than our ancestors because we "know more things" (itself, a notion that has all kinds of subtly colonialist and racist implications.)

Besides, I also wonder if we actually do. I mean, do you know how to thatch a roof?
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
Geocentricity (earth centric creation) was the reigning religious concept for centuries. God created everything for our benefit on Earth, to include the sun, moon and stars. Little did those early, primitive, uneducated people know that earth was not the center of creation.
You do realize that the whole world wasn't Christian and living in the Dark Ages, right? :facepalm: Many ancient and pre-Christian cultures had complex knowledge of astronomy, especially the Mesoamerican civilizations. We don't know exactly what the extent of their knowledge was because the Spanish destroyed much of their civilization, including their writings, but they certainly were not "primitive" or "uneducated". To say such is highly insulting. People did the best with what they had and even that could be a marvel.
 

Neo Deist

Th.D. & D.Div. h.c.
You do realize that the whole world wasn't Christian and living in the Dark Ages, right? :facepalm: Many ancient and pre-Christian cultures had complex knowledge of astronomy, especially the Mesoamerican civilizations. We don't know exactly what the extent of their knowledge was because the Spanish destroyed much of their civilization, including their writings, but they certainly were not "primitive" or "uneducated". To say such is highly insulting. People did the best with what they had and even that could be a marvel.

I am well aware. You missed the point of my post, and who it was directed at. ;)
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
I find the Genesis account to be a kick in the head....
specimen selection, ideal living conditions....
anesthesia, surgery, cloning, genetic manipulation

trial experiment to make sure the alteration took hold....
release into the environment...

all that high tech....centuries before Man could know such things
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
Geocentricity (earth centric creation) was the reigning religious concept for centuries. God created everything for our benefit on Earth, to include the sun, moon and stars. Little did those early, primitive, uneducated people know that earth was not the center of creation. It took Galileo pointing a telescope at the night sky to have an "uh oh" moment. He challenged the claim of geocentricity and the Roman Catholic Church put him on trial for heresy, because the concept of the Earth not being the center of creation destroyed many religious tenets.
Actually, geocentrism was challenged before Galileo.

Shoot. Can't remember their names. Have to open my astronomy book...

Hang on... opening the book on the computer... sigh...

Tick tock... tick tock...

Ok. Got it finally! :D

Aristotle argued geocentrism because of the parallax problem. But the retrograde problem was solved with epicycles (by Ptolemy).

But, Aristarchus of Samos suggested heliocentricity, and apparently anticipated elliptical orbits as well. Hypatia*), Greek woman, supported that idea in 370 AD, but was killed for her anti-Christian views. Copernicus also, 1000 years later also suggested heliocentricity. Then Tyco Brahe, had some mixed version of part geocentric and heliocentric, but his disciple Kepler could see the mathematical aspects of the data Tyco collected, and reintroduced heliocentric system yet again, and produced the laws of planetary motions. Then, Galileo, at the same time, started to use the telescope and exclaimed that we should believe science, i.e. what we can test and measure, and not just religious beliefs without evidence. He's the father of evidence based science.

*) Edit: correction. She was well educated, and not killed for her anti-christian view. My mistake. See more detailed update in Frankenstein's post below.

Just a little fact collection because I think astronomy is so awesome. :D

The truth is that the Earth is not the center of creation, which anyone with half a brain knows. It is not the center of our solar system, as that spot goes to our sun. We are not even at the center of our galaxy. And our galaxy is one of hundreds of billions in the known universe. We are a mere spec in the grand scheme of things.
Amen. Just comparing the sizes of the stars... I mean... I'll see if I can find the video link that compares our Sun with the giants, supergiants, and such. Eeek!

Early humans did not know any of this because they couldn't. Yes there are cultures that tracked the stars, seasons, moon cycles, etc. But those cultures had no way of viewing anything out in the cosmos beyond what the human eye could see.
It's crazy. And some of them actually did manage to establish some facts about the motion of Earth compared to the stars. Don't remember exactly, but some civilizations figured out the solar cycle or something like that. No, wait, it was the Saros cycle. The perfect lineup of Moon and Sun for a complete solar eclipse. It's only more than 18 years apart!

If you stand on the Earth, the sky appears to move around it. As does the sun, the moon and the stars. For those that did not know any better, it would appear as if the Earth was at the very center. It would make sense for various religious mythologies to develop based on that concept because that's all they knew! It is the same reason that early people believed the Earth was flat, and if you traveled too far you would fall off the edge.
Yup.

The point of all this is that you can't apply modern day logic to religions that were created long ago. You have to put yourself in the mindset of someone who had no clue what a comet was. Or a meteorite. Or a star that went supernova. They had no clue what caused an earthquake (wrath of the gods!), or why some people fell to the ground convulsing (demonic possession...nah, just epilepsy).
Or bacteria. It was a huge step away from demons.

We are far more educated than those people. Let's act like it.
Hah! You wish. :D

Humanity, the will to imagine is far greater than the will to truly understand or analyze our own intentions or knowledge. I'm a bit pessimist when it comes to the human will to improve. :(
 
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Thief

Rogue Theologian
I would agree to say.....humans (in spite of hands on tech) are not much different than
Adam and Eve
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
Hypatia, Greek woman, supported that idea in 370 AD, but was killed for her anti-Christian views.
No, she was slaughtered by a fanatical Christian mob that was stirred up against her because of a political dispute between the Prefect of Egypt, Orestes, and the Bishop of Alexandria, Cyril. Orestes was a friend of Hypatia. He was a Christian, too, but a more moderate one. There's no evidence she held anti-Christian views. She was blamed for the row between the two basically because she was a woman, and a very influential and learned woman who moved in the world of men quite comfortably at that. (The bishops were basically greedy and crazy mobsters for many centuries.) She was a renown philosopher, mathematician and astronomer who was the head of the Neoplatonic School in Alexander. She was an excellent scholar and lectured to diverse crowds of people from all over the Empire. That in mind, I think she deserves a bit more of a description than "Greek woman". :rolleyes:
 
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Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
No, she was slaughtered by a fanatical Christian mob that was stirred up against her because of a political dispute between the Prefect of Egypt, Orestes, and the Bishop of Alexandria, Cyril. Orestes was a friend of Hypatia. He was a Christian, too, but a more moderate one. There's no evidence she held anti-Christian views. She was blamed for the row between the two basically because she was a woman, and a very influential and learned woman who moved in the world of men quite comfortably at that. (The bishops were basically greedy and crazy mobsters for many centuries.) She was a renown philosopher, mathematician and astronomer who was the head of the Neoplantic School in Alexander. She was an excellent scholar and lectured to diverse crowds of people from all over the Empire. That in mind, I think she deserves a bit more of a description than "Greek woman". :rolleyes:
Thanks for the correction. I don't know much of her, so the update was much appreciated. :)
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Thousands of years before anyone knew about gravity Job wrote....

Job 26:7
“He stretches out the north over empty space And hangs the earth on nothing." (NASB)

How could Job know that? That is an observation that can only be achieved if viewing the earth from space.

What about precipitation?

Job 36:27
“For He draws up the drops of water, They distill rain from the mist, Which the clouds pour down,
They drip upon man abundantly."


How did Job know that water is drawn up into the clouds to fall as rain?

What about the shape of the earth itself?

Isa 40:22:
"It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers"

Who could know back then that the earth was a "circle"?

According to Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon....

The word "circle" can also mean a "sphere". How did Isaiah know that?

And if we go back to Genesis...how did Moses know the order in which living things appeared? He said life began in the oceans and then flying creatures, before land animals and finally man.
 

Neo Deist

Th.D. & D.Div. h.c.
Actually, geocentrism was challenged before Galileo.

Yes, but Galileo was put on trial for it and sentenced to house arrest, which lasted 7 years until his death. That was my point. ;)

I would agree to say.....humans (in spite of hands on tech) are not much different than
Adam and Eve

Who? Oh, that imaginary couple that we all supposedly came from, even though geneticists have proven that is impossible, thus relegating the story to the fiction section of the biblical library.
 

Neo Deist

Th.D. & D.Div. h.c.
And if we go back to Genesis...how did Moses know the order in which living things appeared? He said life began in the oceans and then flying creatures, before land animals and finally man.

Don't even go there. Genesis has two different creation accounts, and they contradict the order in which stuff was created.
 

Neo Deist

Th.D. & D.Div. h.c.

You can always go look it up yourself. But I understand people are lazy so I'll save you the time.

NASB
Genesis 1:24-25 the animals are created first
Genesis 1:26-27 humans are created after

Genesis 2:7 man is created first
Genesis 2:19 animals are created after

I understand the Bible very well. I have studied it for decades. I have heard every possible scenario and explanation, from pretty much every religion/denomination on the planet that uses the Bible. Nothing can reconcile the fact that these are two entirely different creation accounts, and they contradict as they are opposite of each other. BTW, the first human was not named "Adam." In the Hebrew language, 'adam' [אָדָם] has several meanings to include man, male, mankind, man and woman, and if used with a definitive article 'the man'. In Genesis 1, the term is used to refer to mankind. In Genesis 2 it is specifically singling out a person, as in 'the man' in the garden.

Besides, the whole story is obviously fiction, that most likely started around the campfires of the nomads that traveled the region way back when. Some child asked an elder "where did we come from" and the legend was fabricated over time as a story that was meant for entertainment. Modern science has pretty much destroyed a literal concept of Genesis.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Sure, most people generally know that Earth is round, but how many know that it's not a perfect circle? We know Earth orbits Sun, but how many know that it's also not a perfect circle? We still seem as capable of misunderstanding and oversimplifying all this knowledge as ever, so I seriously question the elitist notion that we're somehow "better" people than our ancestors because we "know more things" (itself, a notion that has all kinds of subtly colonialist and racist implications.)
How about, "perfect sphere"
bigwink.gif



.
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
Thousands of years before anyone knew about gravity Job wrote....

Job 26:7
“He stretches out the north over empty space And hangs the earth on nothing." (NASB)

How could Job know that? That is an observation that can only be achieved if viewing the earth from space.

Actually they could assume such from their creation story. No science knowledge needed.

Also, they could see that other things were "hanging" in the heavens, so why not decide they were too.

What about precipitation?

Job 36:27
“For He draws up the drops of water, They distill rain from the mist, Which the clouds pour down,
They drip upon man abundantly."


How did Job know that water is drawn up into the clouds to fall as rain?

You can actually see this taking place. Water is visibly whipped into the air all the time. And water falls from clouds. No science knowledge needed.

What about the shape of the earth itself?

Isa 40:22:"It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers"

Who could know back then that the earth was a "circle"?

According to Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon....

The word "circle" can also mean a "sphere". How did Isaiah know that?

That is actually not correct. Nor is - chug - used as a sphere anywhere in the Bible. It actually means a scribed circle, - and that means a flat round pancake shape. You don't scribe a sphere.

Here is another -

Pro 8:27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass (chug) upon the face of the depth:

Also, you left out the rest of the sentence, - which says the heaves are like a tent over this round pancake shape.

Isa 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle (chug) of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

Each time this comes up someone comes in and gives us their word for a sphere. I keep losing it - so he will have to do so again. LOL!

Oh wait, I found it is - dur.

Isa 22:18 He will surely violently turn and toss thee like a ball (dur) into a large country: there shalt thou die, and there the chariots of thy glory shall be the shame of thy lord's house.

And if we go back to Genesis...how did Moses know the order in which living things appeared? He said life began in the oceans and then flying creatures, before land animals and finally man.

I see they have already covered this last one.

Edit - Wait, I just reread that sentence. That would have to mean the sea creatures grew wings in the ocean and flew out of it, - rather then crawling out onto the earth first. NOT!
*
 
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Don't even go there. Genesis has two different creation accounts, and they contradict the order in which stuff was created.

Actually, the second chapter of Genesis is a summary of the history of creation, not a different account. The first chapter is a detailed account about the creative "days" and what took place in each period. The second chapter is not necessarily in chronological order.

Gen 2:4:
"Here is the history of the heavens and the earth when they were created. On the day when Adonai, God, made earth and heaven" (CJB)

It adds some detail not covered in the first chapter. It also says that the whole of creation is summarized as taking place in one "day".
 
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