Religion from an evolutionery stand point, Why?

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

Religion has been closely associated with morals in a few cases -- most notably, perhaps, in the cases of several of the major religions. But there is little or no evidence that it has provided the base for morals "through-out history", and "in all societies all over the world".

On the contrary, Jared Diamond reports that of the New Guinea tribes he spent 30 years studying, not one of them had a religion that provided a basis for morals. Diamond then goes on to speculate that linking morals to religion might be a rather unusual or exceptional thing to do in human history.

There was a missionary I remember hearing of who went to spend time with a tribe that had no need for his religion, like they just weren't interested in it. I think it made him lose his faith

 

[Sunstone]

There was a missionary I remember hearing of who went to spend time with a tribe that had no need for his religion, like they just weren't interested in it. I think it made him lose his faith

I personally think one of the reasons Christians account for only about 2% of Japan's population is because -- from a Japanese standpoint -- there's really no need or place for Christianity. Of course, I could be wrong about that.

EDIT: By "no need nor place", I mean such things as the fact Christianity rests upon a concept of sin that seems to be absent from traditional Japanese culture.

 

[LuisDantas]

When push comes to shove, Christianity is a very odd religion.

 

[Sunstone]

When push comes to shove, Christianity is a very odd religion.

Well, Luis, you've just managed the understatement of the year. The thing is, most of us who have been exposed to Christianity from birth are too familiar with it to easily see how very odd it is.

 

[LuisDantas]

I find the Abrahamic religions very odd, all of them. But Christianity is perhaps the oddest of them. It almost makes a point of being a challenge to justify.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Well, Luis, you've just managed the understatement of the year. The thing is, most of us who have been exposed to Christianity from birth are too familiar with it to easily see how very odd it is.

It really saddens me to think about my close relatives who feel the urge to adhere to Christian theology. They are smart people, competent people. But they believe there was once a godman on the earth, that he died and rose from the dead, that we are all burdened with original sin and in need of salvation, etc.

It's impossible to talk to them about serious stuff. I mostly just have to smile and nod and feel the vast abyss between us.

[Forgive me, lurking Christians. It's just my opinion, of course.]

 

[halokitty]

Religions are spiritual disciplines that are mostly cultural except for christianity. But I think it is important to collect a history of spiritual events that have affected mankind in one library since we know that there is only one God. Like Harriet Tubman is my most favorite example. As far as evolution, why did we evolve the ability to hallucinate? Why are we able to see things and hear things that aren't there? What is the evolutionary purpose behind that? And we know God communicates through visions right? That makes sense to me. DMT something something.

 

[Thana]

It really saddens me to think about my close relatives who feel the urge to adhere to Christian theology. They are smart people, competent people. But they believe there was once a godman on the earth, that he died and rose from the dead, that we are all burdened with original sin and in need of salvation, etc.

It's impossible to talk to them about serious stuff. I mostly just have to smile and nod and feel the vast abyss between us.

[Forgive me, lurking Christians. It's just my opinion, of course.]

So you dislike talking to Christians, But you join a religious debate forum?
That totally makes sense....

You're implying it's hard to believe smart and competent people can stoop so low as to believe in something higher than themselves.

I don't particularly understand the human ego that thinks they're the most important things on this earth and nothing can be better than a human, But I digress.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

So you dislike talking to Christians, But you join a religious debate forum?
That totally makes sense....

Actually I'm fine with talking to Christians and have no idea what has made you think otherwise.

You're implying it's hard to believe smart and competent people can stoop so low as to believe in something higher than themselves.

Why not try to deal with what I've actually said? Why twist it into something silly and then point to its silliness?

Listen: It is the bizarre theology which bothers me. Virgin birth, original sin, godman walking on earth, resurrection from the dead, salvation of the soul, damnation to hell, etc., etc.

Try to deal with what I'm actually saying.

I don't particularly understand the human ego that thinks they're the most important things on this earth and nothing can be better than a human, But I digress.

Yes, you do digress. It seems like you are talking to yourself... certainly not to me.

If you must ridicule, try to ridicule things which I actually believe rather than building strawmen and then pummeling them.

 

[Thana]

Actually I'm fine with talking to Christians and have no idea what has made you think otherwise.



Why not try to deal with what I've actually said? Why twist it into something silly and then point to its silliness?

Listen: It is the bizarre theology which bothers me. Virgin birth, original sin, godman walking on earth, resurrection from the dead, salvation of the soul, damnation to hell, etc., etc.

Try to deal with what I'm actually saying.



Yes, you do digress. It seems like you are talking to yourself... certainly not to me.

If you must ridicule, try to ridicule things which I actually believe rather than building strawmen and then pummeling them.

I really can't see what I didn't address, I think my comment pretty much summed up everything. But if I must, I'll go through it again.

"It's impossible to talk to them about serious stuff. I mostly just have to smile and nod and feel the vast abyss between us."

This suggests that you dislike talking to them about serious stuff.
So I therefore drew the conclusion that you dislike talking to them about 'serious stuff'
Since this forum usually debates serious stuff, (atleast, serious to some)
I had to ask why you joined if this is the case.

"They are smart people, competent people."

You added that phrase. What other possible reason would you have had to add that phrase, Other than to point out that they're smart and competent.
Drawing attention to that, Then saying

"But they believe there was once a godman on the earth, that he died and rose from the dead, that we are all burdened with original sin and in need of salvation"

Implies, That smart and competent people shouldn't believe this.
And I therefore concluded that you think religion is for those who are not smart and are not competent.


Please point out what I misinterpreted.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

I really can't see what I didn't address, I think my comment pretty much summed up everything. But if I must, I'll go through it again.

"It's impossible to talk to them about serious stuff. I mostly just have to smile and nod and feel the vast abyss between us."

This suggests that you dislike talking to them about serious stuff.

No. I find it impossible to talk to them about serious stuff. I'd love to be able to do that, but they become angry. So, as I say, I'm saddened that I can't talk to them about serious stuff.

So I therefore drew the conclusion that you dislike talking to them about 'serious stuff'. Since this forum usually debates serious stuff, (atleast, serious to some)
I had to ask why you joined if this is the case.

If you'll read my message again, I think you'll notice that I was talking about those people who are close to me in real life. Family, friends.

I love talking to Christians here in this place. I can talk to them about serious stuff without any concern that my Thanksgiving Dinner invitation might be withheld.

"But they believe there was once a godman on the earth, that he died and rose from the dead, that we are all burdened with original sin and in need of salvation"

Implies, That smart and competent people shouldn't believe this.

Absolutely. Do you remember how the thread branch got started. Someone noted that if we were not raised in Christianity, we'd think it very, very bizarre.

Smart, competent people shouldn't believe the strange theology I've mentioned. They only do so because it's a cultural norm.

And I therefore concluded that you think religion is for those who are not smart and are not competent.

You keep confusing 'religion' with 'weird theological beliefs.'

But they're not the same. I'm one of the most religious people I've ever met, but I have no such beliefs as the ones I've mentioned.

 

[Thana]

No. I find it impossible to talk to them about serious stuff. I'd love to be able to do that, but they become angry. So, as I say, I'm saddened that I can't talk to them about serious stuff.



If you'll read my message again, I think you'll notice that I was talking about those people who are close to me in real life. Family, friends.

I love talking to Christians here in this place. I can talk to them about serious stuff without any concern that my Thanksgiving Dinner invitation might be withheld.



Absolutely. Do you remember how the thread branch got started. Someone noted that if we were not raised in Christianity, we'd think it very, very bizarre.

Smart, competent people shouldn't believe the strange theology I've mentioned. They only do so because it's a cultural norm.



You keep confusing 'religion' with 'weird theological beliefs.'

But they're not the same. I'm one of the most religious people I've ever met, but I have no such beliefs as the ones I've mentioned.

So, in other words, I was right about what I said, And I didn't misinterpret anything.

Making your last post redundant, And leaving me annoyed that I had to bother to rewrite everything.

Except I will change 'religion' with 'weird theological beliefs'
But you knew what I meant anyway.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

So, in other words, I was right about what I said, And I didn't misinterpret anything.

You know, religious discussion doesn't have to be a battle. Really it doesn't.

You entirely misinterpreted my position. If I myself know what I mean, then you misinterpreted what I meant. In other words, your recasting of my position had very little resemblence to the meaning I was trying to convey.

But I'll get over it. Don't worry about me.

 

[Thana]

You know, religious discussion doesn't have to be a battle. Really it doesn't.

You entirely misinterpreted my position. If I myself know what I mean, then you misinterpreted what I meant. In other words, your recasting of my position had very little resemblence to the meaning I was trying to convey.

But I'll get over it. Don't worry about me.

You're a big boy, I'm not worried.
I don't mean to come off blunt, And I'm fine with discussion,
But when insults, Direct or implied, Towards God, or people's faith/beliefs, I get ******. I've managed to survive this forum without insulting anyone's beliefs (I tend to stick to insulting people personally) so I'm sure others can too.

 

[Riverwolf]

You're a big boy, I'm not worried.
I don't mean to come off blunt, And I'm fine with discussion,
But when insults, Direct or implied, Towards God, or people's faith/beliefs, I get ******. I've managed to survive this forum without insulting anyone's beliefs (I tend to stick to insulting people personally) so I'm sure others can too.

I think God can handle a few insults.

I certainly have no problem calling Zeus a misogynistic prick, and remember: I believe he exists, and is King of my paternal ancestor's Gods.

 

[George-ananda]

Hi, I've just joined these forums, and I wish I'll find a nice comunity to discuss my thoughts with.

Now to the subject, I'm an evolutionist -and an atheist too-, and the concept of religion have always puzzled me, I mean sure it was first a handy tool to explain things mythologically, but then shouldn't humanity, as a race, kind of grew up and left religion as science kicked in and explained alot of these things rationally -sure there is alot that we still don't know, but it's only a matter of time-.

Recently though, I started to think that maybe, just maybe, religion is in fact a favourable trait in the evolution of human race, maybe we needed religion to survive, not in the cheesy 'we need god' way, but in a social objective way.

In order for a society to properly function, it needs a definition for the norms, what is ok and what is not, otherwise the society 'practically' does not exist, or at least so do I assume. Here is where religion kicks in, it takes the initiative, and does what it does best, telling people what and what not to do.

I mean, throughout history, religion was the base of the moral code in societies all over the world -not that moral codes are all the same in all religions, since this is a totally subjective matter-, it wasn't until recent time that secular morals started to emerge.

Just as a last desclaimair, I AM an atheist, and I don't think that you NEED relegion to tell you right from wrong, it's just easier, that's all I have to say.

Any ideas on te subject?

I think this gives a very narrow view of what religion is as if it exists to explain physical events (incorrectly) and to give us a moral code.

To me religion is about finding truth and meaning in life. That is where religion is better than science. Good religious thinking does not disagree with anything science knows but concerns itself with things where science can't reach.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

You're a big boy, I'm not worried.

If it overwhelms me, I'll go off and cry privately in the bushes.

But when insults, Direct or implied, Towards God, or people's faith/beliefs, I get ******.

OK, but you insult God with most every message. I'm talking here about the true God, not that Guy from the Bible. The things you say about God -- it's as if you're talking about Mama and saying she wears weird, flourescent combat boots.

She doesn't. Mama is a straightforward, normal, appropriately-dressed person.

So is God. He would never send actual Words down to humanity, for example. When you claim that He does, I hear, "God wears weird combat boots."

As for people's faith/beliefs... really, if you are troubled by hearing challenges to beliefs, this is absolutely not the place for you. I hope you stay, but your skin will have to thicken by several inches.

I've managed to survive this forum without insulting anyone's beliefs (I tend to stick to insulting people personally) so I'm sure others can too.

You insult some Jews every time you say 'Christian.' In fact, there's one guy here who objects to the use of 'Old Testament.'

Everyone's beliefs get insulted in this place, with most every message. It's why the people here tend to be some of the strongest minds around.

 

[Thana]

If it overwhelms me, I'll go off and cry privately in the bushes.



OK, but you insult God with most every message. I'm talking here about the true God, not that Guy from the Bible. The things you say about God -- it's as if you're talking about Mama and saying she wears weird, flourescent combat boots.

She doesn't. Mama is a straightforward, normal, appropriately-dressed person.

So is God. He would never send actual Words down to humanity, for example. When you claim that He does, I hear, "God wears weird combat boots."

As for people's faith/beliefs... really, if you are troubled by hearing challenges to beliefs, this is absolutely not the place for you. I hope you stay, but your skin will have to thicken by several inches.



You insult some Jews every time you say 'Christian.' In fact, there's one guy here who objects to the use of 'Old Testament.'

Everyone's beliefs get insulted in this place, with most every message. It's why the people here tend to be some of the strongest minds around.

"OK, but you insult God with most every message. I'm talking here about the true God, not that Guy from the Bible. The things you say about God -- it's as if you're talking about Mama and saying she wears weird, flourescent combat boots.

She doesn't. Mama is a straightforward, normal, appropriately-dressed person.

So is God. He would never send actual Words down to humanity, for example. When you claim that He does, I hear, "God wears weird combat boots."

Err what?

Yes but those kinds of insults are not intentional, And it doesn't upset me or make me want to cry, It makes me mad, Because it's unnecessary.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

"OK, but you insult God with most every message. I'm talking here about the true God, not that Guy from the Bible. The things you say about God -- it's as if you're talking about Mama and saying she wears weird, flourescent combat boots.

She doesn't. Mama is a straightforward, normal, appropriately-dressed person.

So is God. He would never send actual Words down to humanity, for example. When you claim that He does, I hear, "God wears weird combat boots."

Err what?

Yes but those kinds of insults are not intentional, And it doesn't upset me or make me want to cry, It makes me mad, Because it's unnecessary.

An insult from ignorance (unintentional) can be just as bad as an insult directed.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Yes but those kinds of insults are not intentional, And it doesn't upset me or make me want to cry, It makes me mad, Because it's unnecessary.

Yeah, you seem a little fiery. That's a good thing. Makes it more likely that God will notice your flame.