Religion in school

[Runt]

Everyone gets a bad rap. Unfortunatly, the fundamentalists "belonging" to each religion, usually get to define what each religion "is" to the ignorant mainstream... sucks, but true.

Mormons: polygamist communes (most Mormons say these people are NOT LDS)

Wiccans: fluffy bunnies wearing black claiming to "sacrifice cats" and be "Satanist" (they are neither Wiccan NOR Satanist)

Muslims: Taliban... (most Muslims say these people were NOT Muslim)

Satanists: fluffy bunnies claiming to be Satanist

The list goes on and on...

 

[F_R_O_G]

This may shock you; it shocked me when I first heard it.

This country was founded on Christianity. The constitution gives God the ultimate power. About 100 years ago students learned their ABCs by remembering verses with each letter. When they talked about the first amendment they were referring to any Christian religion. I know people are going to think I’m a hard nose bible thumper but Christianity was the official religion of the united states it's simply the truth.
So according to what the founding fathers wanted "religion" should be taught in school.

 

[Runt]

Which is why I am glad we have a loose interpretation of the Constitution.

 

[ErikaLee]

A good many of our founding fathers were Unitarian, were they not? Some Episcopalian too.

It's right there in the first few lines of the Declaration of Independence:

"When in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation."

I don't know about you, but that doesn't scream Christianity to me.

Now, since Christianity is the major religion of the countries that filled the US, and therefore of the US itself, I agree that most of our decisions are based on Christian beliefs. Because the majority of this country is fueled by Christian beliefs. But I will not agree that this country was FOUNDED on Chrisitianity. This country was founded on EQUALITY and the RIGHT to be whatever you want and not be persecuted. Hasn't really happened yet, and in some ways because of Christianity... but we'll get there.

EL

 

[F_R_O_G]

Um, it looks like it's saying the Laws of Nature governs us and those Laws are created by God. Unitarian or otherwise the constitution was written with God capitalized so it's a single name of an entity. So according to the constitution there is a single god who’s name is God and he has the final say it what’s right and what wrong.

 

[deahca2]

Re: religion in schools

I can't speak to the USA's legislation of it's country, not being an American but up here ( Canada) we have an excellent public education with a variety of religious schools for those that want their children to have religious instructions as part of their curiculum.
We do of course have various problems to deal with but so far, thank heavens , nothing major.
One of the problems was with the older Sikh children. When they are baptised part of that religion, they carry a ceremonial knife. This of course cannot be allowed within schools. It was taken to court and the court upheld the opinion that schools should not allow such a thing.
I suppose ( I don't know) that this particular religion has made it's own schools with their religious instructions and allows their students to have their ceremonial knives.
Kind of reminds me of Wicca in that regard. By the way, that is a recognized religion up here. Children of that faith ( old enough religiously that is) wear a small crescent shaped knife also. ( certain Wiccan religions, that is, I don't know all of them).
We just made the division that state and religion DON'T mix. We allow their own schools with their own religious instruction and that seems to satisfy everyone.
Schools prayer were also "banned". lol. Well, done aloud that is. If they wish to pray silently and not bother anyone else ( in public school) that is permitted. I mean how can you even tell they're praying to begin with? lol
well, just those thoughts to add for your information.
deah

 

[Death]

United States Constitution

The First Amendment
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion...”

Article VI, Section 3
“...no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.”

John Adams (the second President of the United States)

Adams signed the Treaty of Tripoli (June 7, 1797). Article 11 states:
“The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion.”

Thomas Jefferson (the third President of the United States)

Jefferson’s interpretation of the first amendment in a letter to the Danbury Baptist Association (January 1, 1802):
“Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should ‘make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,’ thus building a wall of separation between church and State.”

So now that that's out of the way, schools should be run by a secular authority, not establishing one religion over another, or at all.

Um, it looks like it's saying the Laws of Nature governs us and those Laws are created by God. Unitarian or otherwise the constitution was written with God capitalized so it's a single name of an entity. So according to the constitution there is a single god who’s name is God and he has the final say it what’s right and what wrong.

God is unavailable for comment due to the minute problem of not being democratically elected, nor existing.

 

[Runt]

Unitarian or otherwise the constitution was written with God capitalized so it's a single name of an entity. So according to the constitution there is a single god who’s name is God and he has the final say it what’s right and what wrong.

Christianity is not the only religion that capitalizes the word God (and there are many different Christian traditions with different views on the nature of God and God's will on various issues). Islam and Judaism both use the word "God". Some pagans believe in God as an entity that is male AND female (and wholly different than the Christian God).

The word means nothing. If they had said "the ___ Christian Tradition's God"... well, that would be a different story.

 

[Green Gaia]

I think a comparative religion class should not only be offered to high school students, it should be part of the required curriculum. They require classes such as gym, health, home-ec, other classes that are not of the 3 R's... why not comparative religion if it would bring about more understanding in the world? And hey the kids just might learn some extra history along the way. :lol:

 

[Runt]

I'm in comparative religion (it is an independent study) and I believe it to be one of my most valuable classes...

 

[RavenRose]

There are Christians that don't have a problem with Homosexuality.
There are Christians that don't proselytize and judge.
There are Christians that don't agree with every little thing that is fed them....

The problem I find with these three statements is that they can apply to anyone, from any culture, and any religion. About the homosexuality debate, it's already decided that if you do have a problem, you're a bigot, so there really is no debate in reality. Judging is something everyone does, and Christians are humans to. Even people who try their best not to will end up doing it once and a while. And there are people who don't discern fact from fiction when hearing information. My point is, these 3 characteristics shouldn't be tagged on Christians - not because there are some that DON'T but because a lot of others do.

 

[jtb]

yea, I am with "ErikaLee", on this one!


Today kid have way more peer pressure than when I was younger! School teachers average age in the (US) today is 54, this in it self poses a very big problem, because what they are teaching is not up with the times! Don't get me wrong most teachers do a great job, but material they use (work/lesson books) are out of date and to make matters worse a single teacher on average is responsible for 26 to 30 kids! Because of this there really is no time to teach religion and still expect a child to develop real world skills that will need just to survive in this crazy world!


jtb

 

[deahca2]

two quick points. First, when I was a child, our average class size was near 40 children. Way back then, (lol) what the teachers said was law, and the curriculum was much more intense that it is today.
We all learned and well.
Second point. It's not the teachers fault, what they are teaching. I think you should look at government standards, is that not what teachers are paid to teach? They can't teach what they wish but what they are told to teach. ( more's the pity)
However, I think we're probably getting off track and the teaching and education ( minus religion) is a separate issue that needs another forum.

deah

 

[anders]

The school subject is called "religion" in Sweden today. If I understand it correctly, is is to teach an understanding of different religions, but, perhaps above all, deal with the "big questions of life", from a veeery neutral point of view. Years and years ago, when I went to school, the subject was "History of Christianity", and the teacher from my 9th to my 12th school year happened to be an ordained minister of the Swedish (Lutheran) Church. I do not remember that other religions were even mentioned, but I am doing my very best to remedy the situation now.

I think that the current approach is very useful and rewarding, not only in school districts where many, perhaps even a majority of the pupils(' parents) do not adhere to any variety of the Christian faith.

Anders

 

[Runt]

I agree that in a large school or large classroom, it is difficult to teach comparative religion. I come from a privilaged position... I go to a public school that is run like a private school, so there are only 9 people in my senior english class (though in our "sister" school... on the same campus... there are about 30 kids per classroom). And for two of my classes, I have two different teachers working together to educate me (and I'm the only student). So for me, the perspective is entirely different.

However, I think it is POSSIBLE to teach comparative religion to kids. It would take a lot of effort, and would require highly trained professionals who can teach from as unbiased a viewpoint as possible, but it could be done, and it would be good for kids.

 

[F_R_O_G]

United States Constitution

The First Amendment
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion...”

Article VI, Section 3
“...no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.”

John Adams (the second President of the United States)

Adams signed the Treaty of Tripoli (June 7, 1797). Article 11 states:
“The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion.”

Thomas Jefferson (the third President of the United States)

Jefferson’s interpretation of the first amendment in a letter to the Danbury Baptist Association (January 1, 1802):
“Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should ‘make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,’ thus building a wall of separation between church and State.”

So now that that's out of the way, schools should be run by a secular authority, not establishing one religion over another, or at all.


Quote:
Um, it looks like it's saying the Laws of Nature governs us and those Laws are created by God. Unitarian or otherwise the constitution was written with God capitalized so it's a single name of an entity. So according to the constitution there is a single god who’s name is God and he has the final say it what’s right and what wrong.

God is unavailable for comment due to the minute problem of not being democratically elected, nor existing.

I see your enthusiasm and that it may look like there is separation of church and state but you have misquoted, stretched, and simply miss understood the constitution.

In the first amendment it says congress can not interfere with anything religious, it says nothing about religion being a part of high school, only that congress cannot make laws that restrict religion (that’s why it's in the Bill of Rights) furthermore it is only referring to congress it does not say government, president, state, or school. It’s ONLY refers to congress making a law.


I never said the Christian religion is the official United States religion and it is not, simply that when the constitution was being made all laws, rights, and restrictions were made with christen morals so therefore laws are made with christen morals. They would not teach the ABCs with bible verse unless it was acceptable by the US constitution, and it is.

The treaty of triply that you mentioned may look at first as an official statement that we are not a christen nation but once again you have miss quoted the Treaty of Tripoli. The treaty makes it VERY clear that this nation is a christen nation. The proof surrounding my argument is so extensive that I would not be able to post it here... so I have provided a link http://www.wallbuilders.com/resources/search/detail.php?ResourceID=5

I’m so glad you brought up the letter from Tomas Jefferson... first we must note that it is a letter, not an official document, that’s not to say this does not support freedom of religion, it does, just that it does not hold the same weight as the constitution. You did miss some parts "I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection and blessing of the common Father and Creator of man, and tender you for yourselves and your religious association, assurances of my high respect and esteem." his intent when he talked about a wall of separation is solely in making a law. This once again states that there should not be any restrictions on religion, nothing to do with this country being a christen nation. The words directly fallowing your quote of the letter is "Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties." this makes it even more clear that the wall is meant only for congress restricting the rights of man. The entire letter http://www.wallbuilders.com/resources/search/detail.php?ResourceID=82

It is easy to quote parts of a document to make it suit your perpuce, I can say "congress shale make no law" so therefore congress should not be able to make any laws. That is clearly a misquote of the 1st amendment but if taken as fact without knowing the surrounding circumstances it can be very dangers.

You are obviously an atheist and you are allowed to believe what you do. But as soon as you try to say the constitution only supports atheists, you’re trying to push atheism on others. It supports freedom of religion.

 

[Runt]

In the first amendment it says.....only that congress cannot make laws that restrict religion (that’s why it's in the Bill of Rights) furthermore it is only referring to congress it does not say government, president, state, or school. It’s ONLY refers to congress making a law.

The only body with legislative powers IS Congress. The government (unless it is the House or Senate) and the President CANNOT make laws... they cannot even propose laws. The Supreme Court can declare a law unconsititutional, and the President can threaten to veto a law, but they cannot make laws and they cannot initiate them. Schools can make their own laws, as can states, but only so long as the Supreme Court considers their actions constitutional and Congress doesn't make laws that nullify school rules and state laws.

You are obviously an atheist and you are allowed to believe what you do. But as soon as you try to say the constitution only supports atheists, you’re trying to push atheism on others. It supports freedom of religion.

I don't think he was trying to say the constitution only supports atheists at all, OR trying to push atheism on others. I think he was trying to say that the constitution fully supports the seperation between church and state in lawmaking, DESPITE our nation being founded on Christian ideals, and that despite being founded by Christians, our government is not a Christian government, and therefore should not promote laws based on Christian morals while excluding the moral codes of other belief systems (which our government is trying to do this very moment).

 

[F_R_O_G]

O good I’m glad we agree cuz that’s what I was trying to say

Why don't we leave it to Death to say what he means to say...
Our constitution as I said before is based on Christian principles. I thought we were talking about freedom of religion in schools. As far as the government making laws, the only laws that they can make are ones that agree with the constitution and since the constitution was made with Christian principles (not Christian religion) it should more or less fallow Christian morals.

 

[Runt]

As far as the government making laws, the only laws that they can make are ones that agree with the constitution and since the constitution was made with Christian principles (not Christian religion) it should more or less fallow Christian morals.

Yes, but since the Constitution basically states that religion and state shall not mix, it does not MATTER that the Constitution was written by Christians OR made with Christian principles. If neither Christian laws NOR Christian morals are already IN the Constitution, then the Constitution CAN'T add them because it took that power away from itself. The government can't make laws like: "All schools will teach good Christian morals to students of every religion" because the Constitution forbids this.

Yet they still find ways to get around this...

 

[F_R_O_G]

but since the Constitution basically states that religion and state shall not mix

Um, WHERE? How in the world are you coming to such assumptions? Haven’t you been fallowing this topic? Sometimes I think that guy may be right. "If you say something is true enough times, people will start thinking it's true" as I have PROVEN before there is NO SUCH THING AS SEPERATION OF CHURCH AND STATE. Only that congress cannot make any laws RESTRITING religion... it can make laws benefiting any religion it pleases.

Ok, now I need to settle down......

The schools are not required to teach Christian morals. But laws are made to reflect and enforce the constitution.

But of corce states are allowed to have there own religion....