Religion in school

[F_R_O_G]

Mr_Spinkles, I’m saying that the courts were wrong... what are you trying to say?

wolf, I can't prove that the founding fathers were Christian, but you also can't prove that they weren't. And so as before trying to debate the beliefs of the founding fathers is like trying to figure out the exact temperature with only your hand. (Actually it's harder because you have to figure out what it was 250 years ago)

 

[painted wolf]

I have it in thier own writing that some of them were not christian... How is that not proof?

anyway... their already exists a system of religious educaion... I don't see why we have to expand this system to include the secular system.

you have given no addiquite reasoning for this..

wa:-do

 

[Runt]

MOST of them framers were Christian, I will admit that... although there was actually one atheist and three deists, and one who later held Unitarian beliefs (despite the fact that the UU church had not yet been created). However, they may have been primarily Christian, but they were not all the same KIND of Christian... and therefore had very different views on what a "Christian nation" should be. Therefore, they created the establishment clause so that NONE of them would be able to dictate what a "Christian nation" should be, and therefore eliminated the chance of this being a "Christian nation". However, Christian religious education was okay for a while, but as the religious demographics of the nation changed to being even LESS Christian, this no longer became desireable, because OTHER religions don't want have Christianity taught to their children in school.

Framers' Religions:

Congregationalist
Episcopalian
Dutch Reformed
Presbyterian
Deist
Quaker/Lutheran
Quaker/Episcopalian
Roman Catholic
Methodist
Lutheran
Atheist

 

[F_R_O_G]

Exactly, there is no such thing as the Christian belief, but they all believed there is a god, but there is one, as you say runt that may or may not believe there’s a god, I really don't know. The one that could be an atheist and one other guy or two I think believed that Jesus was just another person... but even then, they all agreed that there are certain absolute truths and something has them.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

An atheist does not believe there are certain and absolute truths and something has them.

 

[painted wolf]

wich is why Jesus is never mentioned....

not everyone there believed in him as 'god' or 'saviour'...

wich is why such freedoms of religion were enshrined in the formation of the government.

wa:-do

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Also-- FROG, do you really think the courts were wrong when they decided the Bill of Rights should gaurantee those rights against the state as well as federal government?

States should be able to censor your freedom of speech and religion?

States should be able to convict you without due process or a grand jury?

States should be able to try you twice for the same crime (double jeopardy)?

States should be able to search and seize things of yours unreasonably?

States should be able to stop you from assembling peacefully or petitioning the government?

And that's not even all of them...

 

[Runt]

Actually, it wasn't just a court case that applied the Bill of Rights to the states. It was actually the 14th ammendment, which started the Incorporation Doctrine of implying the Bill of Rights to the states.

Amendment XIV, Section 1: "All persons born or nationalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, libery, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

This implies the First Amendment to the states once and for all. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."

 

[F_R_O_G]

creation and moral absolutes. right now they teach evolution and that were free to do whatever we want

 

[Green Gaia]

creation and moral absolutes. right now they teach evolution

Well, if parents want their children to know the creation story of their religion, they should take them to church. I don't see why it's the obligation of the state to preach Bible stories to kids.

and that were free to do whatever we want

And how do they teach that?

 

[Mr Spinkles]

They don't teach us we're free to do whatever we want, they teach us to "respect others" "keep your hands and feet to yourself" "share with others" and so forth. They just leave any extra religious morals (like "praise Allah" or "meditate every day") beyond these basic ones to the parents, and I think that's a good thing--I wouldn't want the government teaching my kids what religious morals to follow, would you? I want my kids to follow my religious morals, not the government's.

I think what religious people are quick to forget is the idea of freedom which our country was founded upon. We don't need the government to do everything for us.

As far as creation goes....all schools teach is the science. If kids want to beleive that God caused evolution they're free to do so, but we can't NOT teach kids science every time it contradicts a religious belief...otherwise science would NEVER get taught! :lol:

 

[painted wolf]

Who's creation do you teach?
I'm willing to bet it wont be my cultures...

my faith says that North America sits on the back of a giant turtle... should that be taught in school as science?

I mean... equil time and all right?

wa:-do

 

[F_R_O_G]

They should teach the Christian religion, call me what you want but his county is a Christian nation and when they said "an establishment of religion" they meant not to teach one denominations Christian beliefs over another’s.

And they teach evolution, why didn't you guys respond to that?

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Evolution is not a religious belief. It is a scientific theory that is the basis of modern studies of life. Scientific theories, regardless of how they relate to religion, should be taught in school.

FROG no offense but you sound a lot like all those Muslims in the Middle East who have established theocracies in which people have little or no freedom.

 

[Green Gaia]

They should teach the Christian religion, call me what you want but his county is a Christian nation and when they said "an establishment of religion" they meant not to teach one denominations Christian beliefs over another’s.

Oh please, you're delusional. This is not a Christian nation anymore than it is a Muslim nation or a Buddhist nation. :roll:

 

[painted wolf]

right... how could I have forgotten that we are supposed to be all Christian...
and here I thought that we had Freedom of Religion in this country...

silly me...

shall I gather the wood for the burnings yet? :roll:

wa:-do

 

[Runt]

Frog, a nation founded by Christians and a Christian nation are two very different things. We have no established national religion, and therefore can be nothing more than UNOFFICIALLY a Christian nation. And that is ASSUMING that pretty much everyone in this nation is Christian. However, not only are there LOTS of other religions in this nation, but even among Christians there is too much dispute about even the most basic Christian beliefs (is God One or is God Three--Trinity, for example?) We can't teach Christian religion in schools because too many people (students, parents, and teachers) reject that religion and its teachings... and for a good reason.

 

[Redeemed of God]

I think the reaosn why people took God out of the schools is because they dont want the truth...they want anything but the truth. Evolution has many flaws but they keep it in there because it has nothing to do with God. Our nation was founded on Christian people.
"Many of our local government politicians put greed above rights given us by our forefathers who's blood shed for our freedom to access the rights to see in our daily walk the respect of God throughout this land. We have seen our courts allow changes to our culture they should not have the right to decide upon."
http://home.att.net/~sheryl3/PUTGODBACK/put.htm

 

[painted wolf]

We have seen our courts allow changes to our culture they should not have the right to decide upon."

Whose culture... not my culture... my culture is just as american as anyone elces... perhaps more
Who are you to tell me what to worship.

This nation was also founded uppon the Iriquois great laws... the founders didn't get thier ideas all by themselves...

I don't want my children being taught Christianity in the schools.. that is for church... and if they want to learn about Christianity then they can go to a christian church

I guess freedom isn't as popular in America as it used to be....

wa:-do

 

[Mr Spinkles]

I guess freedom isn't as popular in America as it used to be....

I'm beginning to come to that horrifying conclusion myself, painted wolf. Although I don't think the majority of Americans want Christianity taught in public schools, I think most people are against that (save private schools or elective courses).