Religion is fundamentally divisive. That's not helping!

[icehorse]

I don't see it as a "problem," honestly. I see it as just the way it is. It is only a problem if you view "divisiveness" as a more fundamental problem in the pursuit of understanding.

I think it's important to make a distinction between attacking a person based on their identity vs. attacking an idea.

And in general I think attacking an idea is viewed as divisive only when the apologist is dogmatic.

==

As an example, for almost 20 years as a teacher and coach, I've studied and applied the best practices and ideas I could find to support linear pedagogy.

A few years back I had to face the reality that for many situations, non-linear pedagogy was a superior approach. It was hard at first, but ultimately I've come to embrace non-linear pedagogy. I never saw the knowledge of this new teaching approach as "divisive", but I might have if I had held my old approach dogmatically.

I'm sure many people have had similar experiences.

 

[Left Coast]

I think it's important to make a distinction between attacking a person based on their identity vs. attacking an idea.

And in general I think attacking an idea is viewed as divisive only when the apologist is dogmatic.

Sure, though I don't know what that uniquely has to do with religion. It also applies to secular/irreligious dogmatism, or dogmatism about completely non-religious topics.

 

[icehorse]

Sure, though I don't know what that uniquely has to do with religion. It also applies to secular/irreligious dogmatism, or dogmatism about completely non-religious topics.

Agreed. By no means did the OP mean to imply that this problem is unique to religion. But we are in the "religious debates" forum

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Agreed. By no means did the OP mean to imply that this problem is unique to religion. But we are in the "religious debates" forum

Yeah and according to at least one definition of religion that is not just about supernatural beliefs.

Religion | Definition, Types, Beliefs, Symbols, Examples, Importance, & Facts | Britannica

Religion, human beings’ relation to that which they regard as holy, sacred, absolute, spiritual, divine, or worthy of especial reverence. Worship, moral conduct, right belief, and participation in religious institutions are among the constituent elements of the religious life.

www.britannica.com

 

[Viker]

We need inclusive, critical thinking. We do not need divisive, magical thinking

How bout inclusive magical thinking with critical thinking for issues that matter in the real world?

 

[Augustus]

George Patton would disagree:

He’s talking about the opposite of what you are doing: giving well defined groups of people clear and well defined tasks. He isn't giving ill defined groups vague platitudes to aim at.

Agreed that it isn't an easy problem. But apparently some native americans pulled it off before europeans arrived by coming up with the "7 generations" test. So we see evidence that such long term thinking is possible at the societal level, hooray!

Isn’t that a bit of a myth and they just said “think of the future”?

And I also guarantee they prioritised their short term survival and maintaining their dominant status regarding their rivals over nebulous future goals.

I think it's important to make a distinction between attacking a person based on their identity vs. attacking an idea.

And in general I think attacking an idea is viewed as divisive only when the apologist is dogmatic

The 2 are often indistinguishable on any issue people are emotionally invested in.

Many of these people believe their ideas are held due to high standards of reason and evidence, yet in reality they are stuff they assume or believe uncritically for ideological reasons.

Someone who pounds the table for the importance of critical thinking and rationality is as obtuse regarding the acceptance emotionally displeasing facts as ardent fundies are.

Humans aren't rational and never will be and once emotions and group loyalty come into play will rarely be persuaded by facts.

 

[Valjean]

How bout inclusive magical thinking with critical thinking for issues that matter in the real world?

Mix fantasy with facts? How would that work?

 

[Nakosis]

Humanity is facing enormous problems these days. Climate change will likely displace a BILLION people from their homes in the next few decades. We're running out of fresh water and topsoil. We're likely to face huge crop failures and food shortages.

We need to work together, if we're to survive.

Religion is fundamentally divisive, not inclusive. Sure, there are exceptions. But mostly religion is divisive. Either you're a Muslim, or you're not. Either you're a Christian or you're not. This "us vs. them" worldview is exactly what we DO NOT NEED at this critical juncture.

We need inclusive, critical thinking. We do not need divisive, magical thinking.

And while I'm at it, most identity politics these days shares a lot in common with religion. The most important / destructive way in which this is true is in the establishment and defense of DOGMA. We need new dogma like we need a hole in the head.

Back in the 60s and 70s we used to say "question authority". It's still good advice, but I'd amend it a bit and say:

"Question authority and question dogma".

Question, how do you get folks who don't accept any authority to work together?

 

[YoursTrue]

What do ya mean?

Oops, sorry. Typo there. Hear it not heat it. So why do you keep referring to 1980. Were you born in 1980?

 

[Jimmy]

Oops, sorry. Typo there. Hear it not heat it. So why do you keep referring to 1980. Were you born in 1980?

You think I think I’m the chosen one? I don’t think that. Haha. As I’ve stated before I think god chose this time as it is the pinnacle of technology before man ultimately destroys himself and nature due to war pollution etc.

 

[Viker]

Mix fantasy with facts? How would that work?

7 billion do it everyday without acknowledging it. What makes anyone different? Is everything, every one their beliefs fact based, logical, etc? Are you human?

 

[Valjean]

Question, how do you get folks who don't accept any authority to work together?

Common interest? Self interest?
People do all sorts of things together without a designated leader or authority figure.

7 billion do it everyday without acknowledging it. What makes anyone different? Is everything, every one their beliefs fact based, logical, etc? Are you human?

Good question.
-- running diagnostic......

 

[YoursTrue]

Elegy? You think I think I’m the chosen one? I don’t think that. Haha. As I’ve stated before I think god chose this time as it is the pinnacle of technology before man ultimately destroys himself and nature due to war pollution etc.

Hmm, I wonder if you or someone reading your comment could explain that. Elegy? What do you mean? Other than your decision that 1980 is the time you think mankind begins (?) its descent into oblivion. Just please let me know. Thanks.

 

[YoursTrue]

Well, if God is natural and atheism is unnatural, then God has caused something unnatural.

If, if, if. What do you define as natural or unnatural? Can you define those terms as you are using them?

 

[Jimmy]

Hmm, I wonder if you or someone reading your comment could explain that. Elegy? What do you mean? Other than your decision that 1980 is the time you think mankind begins (?) its descent into oblivion. Just please let me know. Thanks.

Typo

 

[YoursTrue]

I think you're proving the point of the OP here? It seems like you're agreeing that the main religions ARE basically in disagreement with each other?

Hi. You think maybe the main religions are not in disagreement with each other?

 

[YoursTrue]

Typo

Hi there, Moon. Typo?

 

[YoursTrue]

Maybe??? I'm not so sure. I would say that tribalism was an important survival strategy back in the day, but that it's now an outdated and dangerous strategy. I think it's more of a cultural artifact than a psychological one.

Not sure, but I'm thinking tribalism is similar to nationalism now, to an extent.

 

[icehorse]

He’s talking about the opposite of what you are doing: giving well defined groups of people clear and well defined tasks. He isn't giving ill defined groups vague platitudes to aim at.

Wrong on two counts:

1 - No, Patton is giving goals, not tasks.
2 - Dude! Let me try this yet another way.. I've offered a few suggestions FOR EXAMPLE PURPOSES ONLY - I haven't made any claims in this thread that I have any sort of fleshed out plan. In yet other words, the suggestions I've made I do not consider to be fleshed out to any degree whatsoever

Isn’t that a bit of a myth and they just said “think of the future”?

And I also guarantee they prioritised their short term survival and maintaining their dominant status regarding their rivals over nebulous future goals.

I'm okay with "think of the future".

We're not struggling for our short term survival like they might have been.

The 2 are often indistinguishable on any issue people are emotionally invested in.

Many of these people believe their ideas are held due to high standards of reason and evidence, yet in reality they are stuff they assume or believe uncritically for ideological reasons.

Someone who pounds the table for the importance of critical thinking and rationality is as obtuse regarding the acceptance emotionally displeasing facts as ardent fundies are.

Humans aren't rational and never will be and once emotions and group loyalty come into play will rarely be persuaded by facts.

And.... you're back to variations of "it's hard" again.

Yup, saving civilization is gonna be friggin' hard.

 

[icehorse]

Hi. You think maybe the main religions are not in disagreement with each other?

Remember me? I'm the guy who started this thread