• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Religion is reasoning

JRMcC

Active Member
I'm of the opinion that almost all religious and spiritual thought is reasoning at it's core, sometimes philosophical and sometimes practical.
For example, I do not think of the Bhagavad Gita as a book of knowledge with hard facts in it. Rather I see it as a book on spiritual philosophy derived from reason, and it's put into the format of a dialogue between the knowing philosopher (Krishna) and the one who wants to know and is moving the conversation forward with questions. Plenty of ancient Greek and more recent western philosophy is set up this way.
So for me this means:
1. Religion (as a whole) should not be written off as nonsense that is completely separate from critical reasoning.
2. There is nothing wrong with picking certain ideas from religion/s and ignoring others.

I'm particularly interested to hear what some atheists think about this. The ones I've said this to in person haven't liked it too much. Lawrence Krauss thinks we should throw out all religious thought because some of it (well, maybe a lot of it depending on which religion) is wrong.

Am I right? Is religion reasoning?
 

Ultimatum

Classical Liberal
I'm of the opinion that almost all religious and spiritual thought is reasoning at it's core, sometimes philosophical and sometimes practical.

It is reasoning within itself. It concludes nothing but the cause(s) it tries to accomplish.

So for me this means:
1. Religion (as a whole) should not be written off as nonsense that is completely separate from critical reasoning.
2. There is nothing wrong with picking certain ideas from religion/s and ignoring others.

1. This is going to depend on the type of religion. (Theism/Nontheism)
2. This, again, is going to depend on the specific religion and it's denominations. No cow has the same pattern.

I'm particularly interested to hear what some atheists think about this. The ones I've said this to in person haven't liked it too much. Lawrence Krauss thinks we should throw out all religious thought because some of it (well, maybe a lot of it depending on which religion) is wrong.

I don't think we should "throw out" religion as this implies massive persecution, globally, which would be completely improbable. I do, however, think we should "throw out" religion from science and politics. Religion belongs in a philosophy classroom, not a science classroom. Religion belongs in a place of worship, not in politics.
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
Religion belongs in a philosophy classroom, not a science classroom.

what about atheism?


regarding the biggest scientific question of all time- Hoyle V Lemaitre, static v created universe, science would have progressed much faster had it NOT thrown out an idea explicitly because of it's unfashionable theistic implications
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
Lawrence Krauss thinks we should throw out all religious thought because some of it (well, maybe a lot of it depending on which religion) is wrong.

Static, eternal universes, steady state, big crunch, Piltdown man, Stalin, Mao, Kim Jong Il... by Krauss' rationale we should throw out all atheist thought?!
 

HonestJoe

Well-Known Member
Am I right? Is religion reasoning?
It's one of those words with all sorts of different meanings but I see religion as exclusively practice - it's what people do rather than the reasoning behind it. That reasoning is philosophical to a great extent though only a subset of philosophy as a whole. Philosophy is indeed open to be picked up on parts and "played with" for want of a better term. I see no reason to treat those elements that have influenced various religious practices any differently to those that haven't though.

There is also much of religious practice that involved definitive statements and unsupported, even contradictory, presumptions which have no place being called "reasoning" IMO. I don't think it's a positive thing for philosophy to get dragged in to that aspect other than in the context of challenging the flaws and questioning the stated certainties.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Firstly, good thread topic, @JRMcC

To determine a good answer to this question, we might want to ask what the purpose or function of religion is, and then if reasoning is necessary in order for these purposes or functions to be fulfilled.

Perhaps the largest purpose or function of religion in a person or culture is to inform one's way of life by addressing mega-questions of purpose and meaning. It does things like help us understand what it means to be human, and what our place is in human society, as well as within the broader global ecosystem. It does things like provide guidance for how to live our lives and relate with others, both human and non-human. It seems to me that even thinking about these sorts of mega-questions requires reasoning ability, and coming up with an answer that serves your life well definitely does as well.

That said, if the individual doesn't do any real think-work about these mega-questions and just goes through the motions that have been handed to them by their traditions, there might not be so much reasoning involved. It's just habit; more like a learned behavior or conditioned response. IMHO, religion done right or a religion lived genuinely does not tread this path. It is something you engage actively, not follow blindly and passively. It takes work. Lots of work.
 

Ultimatum

Classical Liberal
what about atheism?


regarding the biggest scientific question of all time- Hoyle V Lemaitre, static v created universe, science would have progressed much faster had it NOT thrown out an idea explicitly because of it's unfashionable theistic implications

"Atheism" is not a religion. It is not something that should or should not be taught in the classroom.
And, of course, scientists have gotten things wrong in the past and it is ok to own up to these mistakes. It is okay to say "I don't know."

The main difference, though, is that science is progressive and religion is static. We can learn from our mistakes in science and move on. Religion never changes: it is not progressive and tends to not keep up with the modern world.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
The main difference, though, is that science is progressive and religion is static. We can learn from our mistakes in science and move on. Religion never changes: it is not progressive and tends to not keep up with the modern world.

Huh? Religions change all the time. Constantly. Where did you get the idea that they didn't? So very strange, sir...
 

Ultimatum

Classical Liberal
Huh? Religions change all the time. Constantly. Where did you get the idea that they didn't? So very strange, sir...

Well the philosophical ideals and mythological stories don't re-write themselves over time, do they?
But this is going to depend on the religion for the statement to be relevant.
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
"Atheism" is not a religion. It is not something that should or should not be taught in the classroom.
And, of course, scientists have gotten things wrong in the past and it is ok to own up to these mistakes. It is okay to say "I don't know."

The main difference, though, is that science is progressive and religion is static. We can learn from our mistakes in science and move on. Religion never changes: it is not progressive and tends to not keep up with the modern world.

As above, big bang v steady state was not a question of science v religion, but science v atheism,

science eventually moved on by overcoming atheist beliefs with evidence, the atheist dogma of 'no creation hence no creator' did not change, it simply moved into scientifically darker recesses - Big Crunch, Multiverses, M Theory etc, these atheism of the gaps arguments are not progression, but retreat
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
I'm of the opinion that almost all religious and spiritual thought is reasoning at it's core, sometimes philosophical and sometimes practical.
This is taking reasoning in its most general sense, almost one on par with the notion that almost all thought; is reasoning. And this is fine, but hardly significant. No more so than the opinion that almost all comedy thought is reasoning.

So for me this means:
1. Religion (as a whole) should not be written off as nonsense that is completely separate from critical reasoning.
And I would agree. There are some aspects of religion, although not many, that employ critical reasoning. Most are more or less dictates laid down as non-negotiable rules of the road, dictates the are usually constructed to serve some agenda. Was critical reasoning ever involved? I highly doubt it. At most it would come down to asserting that doing X is called for by Y. Reasoning for sure, but not critical reasoning.

2. There is nothing wrong with picking certain ideas from religion/s and ignoring others.
Whatever floats one's boat. Religion is one of those constructs almost without borders, which is why its definition has to be so incredibly broad and encompassing.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
I'm particularly interested to hear what some atheists think about this. The ones I've said this to in person haven't liked it too much. Lawrence Krauss thinks we should throw out all religious thought because some of it (well, maybe a lot of it depending on which religion) is wrong.

Am I right? Is religion reasoning?

That is one of the reasons why I prefer to talk of Dharma as opposed to religion.

Religion is supposed to be alive if it is to have any meaning. And for that, the reason of its adherents has no substitute.
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I'm of the opinion that almost all religious and spiritual thought is reasoning at it's core, sometimes philosophical and sometimes practical.
For example, I do not think of the Bhagavad Gita as a book of knowledge with hard facts in it. Rather I see it as a book on spiritual philosophy derived from reason, and it's put into the format of a dialogue between the knowing philosopher (Krishna) and the one who wants to know and is moving the conversation forward with questions. Plenty of ancient Greek and more recent western philosophy is set up this way.
So for me this means:
1. Religion (as a whole) should not be written off as nonsense that is completely separate from critical reasoning.
2. There is nothing wrong with picking certain ideas from religion/s and ignoring others.

I'm particularly interested to hear what some atheists think about this. The ones I've said this to in person haven't liked it too much. Lawrence Krauss thinks we should throw out all religious thought because some of it (well, maybe a lot of it depending on which religion) is wrong.

Am I right? Is religion reasoning?

Yes, religion is a form of reasoning. The opposition between Science and Religion is historically very recent, beginning in the 19th century, particularly when Evolution brought into question the Biblical account of creation. Before then Science, Religion and Philosophy were all in roughly the same discipline called "Natural Philosophy". Concepts of Natural Law and Natural Rights, were pivotal to the development of liberalism and our conception of 'human rights' and had religious roots in Judaeo-Christian ethics. Secular Societies therefore implicitly have a bias towards religious patterns of reasoning.

The conflict between religious belief and scientific evidence has grown over time. Philosophically, Religion and Science continue to overlap and so many discoveries have religious interpretations (Is the concept of Big Bang as the origin of the Universe actually another version of Creation for example?), but as Science has become professionalized it has become more divorced from explicit discussion of philosophical problems over the nature of reality (and religions place in it).

Personally, I do not hold the view that religion should be written off despite being an atheist. If you accept the proposition that God does not exist, but is a projection of man, religion still has something to tell you something about human beings, our history and culture. Even in an Atheist society, religion still holds some value by telling us part of the story of our humanity and our struggle to define ourselves as a species. Religious questions still need secular, scientific or atheist answers.

However, on you're second question, I'm more skeptical, as I take the side of science. Whilst Religion and science do overlap, the conflict between them is undeniable and I take the side of evidence over faith. I would only therefore accept an idea if I felt it had validity is a secular sense and has some case for being objectively true. The fact it is religious is co-incidental. Religion is not a substitute for Science, but can complement it.

That said, the philosophical assumptions of religion continue to predominate such as moral ideas about free will and individual rights and responsibility. The concept of the soul continues to live on in a secular guise as our understanding of "human nature" as the source of our understanding of ethics and society. Science has yet to become consciously aware of it's religious roots and capable of being 'atheist' in it's own right, particularly to replace religions role as a way of understanding morality, the problem of responding to death and our place in the universe. This would require a much more open and philosophical approach to science and even this does not automatically entail it would be anti-religious. we can still learn things from religion and we should.
The question is ultimately is whether religion will become an out-dated form of reasoning, and on that I remain uncertain as there is no obvious substitute to it. Religion isn't out right "false" or "wrong", but it is arguably incomplete or distorted because it lacks the ability to prove it's claims in a rational or scientific way.
 

JRMcC

Active Member

Yes, religion is a form of reasoning. The opposition between Science and Religion is historically very recent, beginning in the 19th century, particularly when Evolution brought into question the Biblical account of creation. Before then Science, Religion and Philosophy were all in roughly the same discipline called "Natural Philosophy". Concepts of Natural Law and Natural Rights, were pivotal to the development of liberalism and our conception of 'human rights' and had religious roots in Judaeo-Christian ethics. Secular Societies therefore implicitly have a bias towards religious patterns of reasoning.

The conflict between religious belief and scientific evidence has grown over time. Philosophically, Religion and Science continue to overlap and so many discoveries have religious interpretations (Is the concept of Big Bang as the origin of the Universe actually another version of Creation for example?), but as Science has become professionalized it has become more divorced from explicit discussion of philosophical problems over the nature of reality (and religions place in it).

Personally, I do not hold the view that religion should be written off despite being an atheist. If you accept the proposition that God does not exist, but is a projection of man, religion still has something to tell you something about human beings, our history and culture. Even in an Atheist society, religion still holds some value by telling us part of the story of our humanity and our struggle to define ourselves as a species. Religious questions still need secular, scientific or atheist answers.

However, on you're second question, I'm more skeptical, as I take the side of science. Whilst Religion and science do overlap, the conflict between them is undeniable and I take the side of evidence over faith. I would only therefore accept an idea if I felt it had validity is a secular sense and has some case for being objectively true. The fact it is religious is co-incidental. Religion is not a substitute for Science, but can complement it.

That said, the philosophical assumptions of religion continue to predominate such as moral ideas about free will and individual rights and responsibility. The concept of the soul continues to live on in a secular guise as our understanding of "human nature" as the source of our understanding of ethics and society. Science has yet to become consciously aware of it's religious roots and capable of being 'atheist' in it's own right, particularly to replace religions role as a way of understanding morality, the problem of responding to death and our place in the universe. This would require a much more open and philosophical approach to science and even this does not automatically entail it would be anti-religious. we can still learn things from religion and we should.
The question is ultimately is whether religion will become an out-dated form of reasoning, and on that I remain uncertain as there is no obvious substitute to it. Religion isn't out right "false" or "wrong", but it is arguably incomplete or distorted because it lacks the ability to prove it's claims in a rational or scientific way.

Wow great post! Science usually conflicts with those aspects of religion that deal with science. I think it's always safe to side with science when it comes to that. I never accept anything in religious thought (by the way I only really concern myself with Hindu and Buddhist thought) that directly conflicts with science.

What confuses me is when many atheists take this weird extra step and they stop assigning divine value to these aspects of the universe we know about. Good point about the big bang. Whether or not an intelligent force put it into motion, it's still utterly incredible, and it deserves to be thought of in a spiritual way.
 

JRMcC

Active Member
Well the philosophical ideals and mythological stories don't re-write themselves over time, do they?
But this is going to depend on the religion for the statement to be relevant.

Right, it sounds like you're focusing on Abrahamic religions. It depends on that, and also what kind of people are following the religion. There are fundamentalists, and their views don't ever change in the slightest. And then there are those like me who take it non-literally, symbolically and philosophically.
 

JRMcC

Active Member
That said, if the individual doesn't do any real think-work about these mega-questions and just goes through the motions that have been handed to them by their traditions, there might not be so much reasoning involved. It's just habit; more like a learned behavior or conditioned response. IMHO, religion done right or a religion lived genuinely does not tread this path.

I think in this case the reasoning has been done for them already. For example, the content in the Quran is derived from reasoning (that the prophet must have done), and so one could blindly follow the Quran without really pondering its meaning or critically thinking about why its words might be true. But still they are involved with reasoning.
 

JRMcC

Active Member
This is taking reasoning in its most general sense, almost one on par with the notion that almost all thought; is reasoning. And this is fine, but hardly significant. No more so than the opinion that almost all comedy thought is reasoning.

Good point here. I think the reasoning involved in religious thought is far more significant and complex than the reasoning involved in comedy, but you're right that it's a weirdly general statement I made.
In part, I was trying to challenge the view that religion is just belief and science is logic and reasoning. I think it's quite misleading and silly to put it that way.
 

JRMcC

Active Member
There is also much of religious practice that involved definitive statements and unsupported, even contradictory, presumptions which have no place being called "reasoning" IMO. I don't think it's a positive thing for philosophy to get dragged in to that aspect other than in the context of challenging the flaws and questioning the stated certainties.

I can imagine which aspects of religious practice you might be talking about. I would still call it reasoning for sure, just wrong reasoning. You have to give some of the people who lived hundreds or thousands of years ago some credit for coming up with some of the things they did using only reasoning. Yes, some of it is inexcusably bad though, even for the time they were thought up in. Not all religions have things this silly in them though!
 
Top