No references then?
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"Religion of Peace?"
- Thread starter hughwatt
- Start date
Theweirdtophat
Well-Known Member
"If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed,- all who are on earth! wilt thou then compel mankind, against their will, to believe?" [The Qur'an 10:99]
Apostasy is a topic that can get confusing, especially since in Islam it's not merely the change of ones religion. In the Qur'an for example, it is stated over and over again that there is no compulsion in religion. You simply are not allowed to make someone believe against their will. (I gave one example above, there are others I can share if anyone is interested)
The topic of rejecting religion after being a believer is also mentioned in the Qur'an, but not once is a worldly punishment prescribed for it. For example one verse states:
"Indeed, those who have believed then disbelieved, then believed, then disbelieved, and then increased in disbelief - never will Allah forgive them, nor will He guide them to a way." [4:137]
As you can see it talks about disbelieving after believing over and over again but it never talks about punishing those people in this life. Actually, if people were killed for merely leaving the religion, how can they believe and disbelieve then believe and disbelieve again? Wouldn't they be already dead?
The confusion actually comes from a number of saying by Muhammad about people committing ridda and that they are to be executed. Thing is these sayings were about people who didn't just leave the religion, but they also joined the other side which was fighting Muslims at the time. (In early Islamic history Muslims were persecuted against by the Arab Pagans) In some of these sayings it becomes more clear that it's not just someone who leaves the religion, but someone who acts against the nation. In short, it's someone committing treason in terms we use today.
So as you can say, if you combine the fact that the Qur'an itself speaks against compulsion in matters of religion, with knowing a bit of history behind these sayings it becomes clear that there is no execution for the mere leaving of Islam.
"There shall be no compulsion in the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong. So whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold with no break in it. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing." [2:256]"
Pay the poor-due. 2:43, 110, 277
Be good to parents, relatives, orphans, and the needy. Speak kindly and pay the poor-due. 2:83
If you believe it, prove it. 2:111
The Jews say the Christians are wrong, and vice versa. Yet they both believe in the Scriptures. 2:113
Give of your wealth to family, relatives, and the needy. Set slaves free. 2:177
Do not fight wars of aggression. 2:190
"Do good." 2:195
Spend your money for good: to help your parents, your family, orphans, wayfarers, and the needy. 2:215
Help orphans. 2:220
"Make not Allah, by your oaths, a hindrance to ... making peace among mankind." 2:224
"If the debtor is in straitened circumstances, then (let there be) postponement to (the time of) ease." 2:280
Don't argue about things that you know nothing about. 3:66
Do not be guilty of usury, doubling and quadrpling the sum lent. 3:130
I suffer not the work of any worker, male or female, to be lost. Ye proceed one from another. 3:195
Help orphans and don't steal from them. 4:2, 4:10
Men and women proceed from one another. 4:25
"Kill not one another." 4:29
Be kind to parents, relatives, orphans, the needy, neighbors, and travelers. 4:36
Whoever participates in a good cause, will be rewarded. Whoever participates in an evil cause, will bear the consequences thereof. 4:85
If someone says Hi to you say Hi (or Howdy) back to them. 4:86
It is good to help the poor and make peace. 4:114
Value justice, for both poor and rich, even when it adversely affects you or your family's interests. 4:135
Don't lend money at unfairly high rates of interest. 4:161
"O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion."
Other translations render this "O people of the Book, do not be fanatical in your faith." 4:171
Don't hate other people. Treat everyone fairly. 5:8
Whoever kills a human being, it is as if he had killed all mankind. Whoever saves the life of one, it is as if he had saved the life of all. 5:32
Pay the poor-due. 5:55
Feed and clothe the needy. Set a slave free. 5:89
Do good to parents, don't kill your children or other living things unnecessarily. 6:151
Don't steal from orphans. Don't cheat or lie. 6:152
Pay the poor-due. 7:156
Be kind and forgiving toward others. 7:199
And if they incline to peace, incline thou also to it. 8:61
Men and women are protecting friends of one another. They enjoin the right and forbid the wrong, and pay the poor-due. 9:71
"We see thee [Noah] but a mortal like us, and we see not that any follow thee save the most abject among us, without reflection. We behold in you no merit above us - nay, we deem you liars." 11:27
"Do not evil in the earth."
Treat people fairly, respect their possessions, and avoid evil. 11:85
Be kind to your relatives. 16:90
Be kind to your parents. Treat them with respect in their old age. 17:23
Help your family, the needy, and wayfarer. Don't selfishly squander your wealth. 17:26
Don't kill your children to avoid falling into poverty. 17:31
Don't steal from orphans. 17:34
Don't follow what you don't know. 17:36
"Speak that which is kindlier." 17:53
"Increase me in knowledge." 20:114
Feed the poor and unfortunate. 22:28
Don't lie. 22:30
Be kind to others, forbid injustice, and pay the poor-due. 22:41
Pay the poor-due. 22:78
Pay the poor-due. 23:4
Repel evil with that which is better. 23:96
Pay the poor-due. 24:37, 24:56
"And such of your slaves as seek a writing (of emancipation), write it for them if ye are aware of aught of good in them, and bestow upon them of the wealth of Allah which He hath bestowed upon you. Force not your slave-girls to whoredom."
Allah encourages you to set your slaves free if they are good enough. And don't pimp out your slave-girls (concubines). 24:33
Repel evil with good. 28:54
Be kind to your parents. 29:8
Men and women should help each other with love an mercy. 30:21
Help your family, the needy, and wayfarers. 30:38
Pay the poor-due. 31:4
"Be modest in thy bearing and subdue thy voice." 31:19
"Speak words straight to the point."
Say what you mean; mean what you say. 33:70
Good and evil are not the same. Repel evil with goodness. That way your enemies will become your friends. 41:34
Be loving and kind to your relatives. 42:23
It is wrong to oppress people. 42:42
Live peacefully with disbelievers. 43:88-89
Be kind to your parents. 46:15
Don't defame, insult, spy on, or backbite one another.. 49:11-12
Give of your wealth to help the poor. 51:19
"A guess can never take the place of the truth." 53:28
Pay the poor-due. 58:13
Pay the poor-due. 73:20
Don't defraud. 83:1-3
Free a slave, feed the hungry, and exhort one another to pity. 90:13-17
Don't oppress orphans or drive away beggars. 93:9-10
Pay the poor-due. That is true religion. 98:5
Let each person believe (or disbelieve) whatever he or she wishes. 109:1, 6
How about the surah of the sword? Who's that for?
What do you make of surah 4:89? "They wish that you reject Faith, as they have rejected (Faith), and thus that you all become equal (like one another). So take not Auliya' (protectors or friends) from them, till they emigrate in the Way of Allah (to Muhammad). But if they turn back (from Islam), take (hold) of them and kill them wherever you find them, and take neither Auliya' (protectors or friends) nor helpers from them."
Knowing the history behind this oft repeated verse is quite revealing and should be looked into by those who say they are wanting to learn Islam.
When Mecca Muhammad was militarily weak he had no choice but to play the politician and offer peace to his non-Muslims but when he had amassed a great army his attitude changed to: “So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them.” – Quran 9:5
Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.
Quran 9:29
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So it's about a personal interpretation of the text which counts more than anything?
It would mean understanding why people accept MP as a prophet and the Quran as scripture.
The Quran, Hadith and Sunnah is for sharia observant Sunni Muslims. There are many others who use the word Islam to define their faith and aren't Shariah observant Sunni. So for this reason alone you are misusing the term Islam.
In essence, you are siding with ISIS who consider themselves Shariah observant Sunni Muslims who are trying to hijack the term Islam when you use their definition of Islam.
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Lorgar-Aurelian
Active Member
Or you know, if they happen to be the wrong faith and don't want to submit to you.
The reason many westerners do this I think may have something to do with our governments being in bed with the Saudis and the Mujahideen to prop them up as true Muslims and compel non violent Muslims to join them to defeat the Russians during the Afghan- Soviet war.
I've read the Quran cover to cover. I've read a bit of the Hadith and a couple of biographies of Muhammad.
As ALL of these documents were created by humans, they are all flawed and inconsistent. For almost any quote you can name from the Quran, you can find a different quote that contradicts the first.
The bottom line is that humans interpret these documents based on their own culture and innate sense of morality, not based on what the documents actually say.
If you learn your morality from any Abrahamic scripture, you will have bad morals.
As ALL of these documents were created by humans, they are all flawed and inconsistent. For almost any quote you can name from the Quran, you can find a different quote that contradicts the first.
The bottom line is that humans interpret these documents based on their own culture and innate sense of morality, not based on what the documents actually say.
If you learn your morality from any Abrahamic scripture, you will have bad morals.
Yes, in that I think that telling anyone that your interpretation of an idea, philosophy or text is what they believe is both presumptuous and putting words in their mouth.
When discussing or questioning what individual Muslims believe, your interpretation doesn't matter, only theirs.
Which is why threads leading with 'Is Islam really peaceful?' could be met with, 'Here we go again. Another person who doesn't like Islam is going to try and tell me what it is I really believe, instead of honestly asking what it is I believe.'
Same as when threads start off with 'Is Christianity really homophobic.'
Kilgore Trout
Misanthropic Humanist
So peaceful, that they let the violent and extremist Muslims do whatever they want, without doing or saying anything to oppose or condemn such actions.
Thanks for telling me my morals are bad.
A common definition of "Islamist" is any Muslim who thinks that Sharia should be the law of the land. That's the definition I use. This Sharia worldview is in stark conflict with secularism. The two are simply not compatible. So I guess it's a matter of definition, but for my money, it's unlikely for secularists to be at peace with anyone who wants the world to be ruled by Sharia. Sadly, their are hundreds of millions of Islamists in the world. Maybe 25% to 40% of all the world's Muslims are Islamists based on this definition.
I doubt you learned your morals from your scripture. My guess is that you brought good morals into your studies of your scripture and you used those pre-existing good morals to know which parts of scripture to agree with and which to disagree with.
Or maybe I have it wrong! Are you one of those people who believe that if a husband discovers that his bride is not a virgin she should be stoned to death?
Neverminding that they do, constantly, do just that... I don't try and apologize or take responsibility for violent and extremist atheists, even though violent and extremist atheistic regimes have killed far more people. Because even though we are both atheist, we do not have the same ideologies or motivation. Further, I am not responsible for their behavior in any way, shape or form. The same is true for Muslims and their various denominations and sects.
In before special pleading.
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It's more complicated than that. I used to be a very hateful person. I was a neo-Nazi. I dropped a lot of my hateful beliefs because they don't align with Christianity and still fine tune my beliefs so they do align with Christ's message and influence in my life. It's made me a better person. Sorry I don't fit your narrow mold.
Kilgore Trout
Misanthropic Humanist
That's one way to look at it.
It's more complicated than that. I used to be a very hateful person. I was a neo-Nazi. I dropped a lot of my hateful beliefs because they don't align with Christianity and still fine tune my beliefs so they do align with Christ's message and influence in my life. It's made me a better person. Sorry I don't fit your narrow mold.
My claim was not that you didn't get good stuff from Christianity - it was that you did not learn your morals from the scripture! Because the scripture's set of moral teachings are medieval and immoral by today's standards.
I might agree that folks like Stalin were anti-Abrahamic (although even that claim isn't as clean as you might think).
But they were NOT atheistic - they inserted their own flavor of theism / deism into the mix.