religion unites...yeah right...

[Greyn]

You cover a lot of ground in your last post, so I think I am going to respond to the things I agree with and see where that takes us.

so are you saying...
people of faith can do good deeds, and their motives are sometimes selfish and sometimes selfless but people who do not follow a religious faith only do good deeds for selfish reasons?
horsepucky...

I agree people (religious or otherwise) can do good deeds and their motives are sometimes selfish and sometimes selfless. I just believe that a most of the times they are self-serving and religion can help adjust their moral compass when in doubt.

i'm sorry could you please clarify...

I was speaking about how you keep replacing "reason" with the negative word "excuse". You focused on my example of how you are doing that, ignored what I was saying and then even spun the example in a negative light.

i've been saying that all along...people are people...religion is just a glorified excuse for good or bad...in other words, religion isn't to blame people are

I 100% agree! I could not have said it any better! :yes:

i say the people who act on goodness are exceptional...religious or not

Indeed, truly with out a doubt!

if any religion doesn't want those who follow it's dogma to be clear of their own intention...i have a big problem with that line of thinking.

Okay, I am not totally clear on what you are saying so I am going to paraphrase what I think you said and please correct me if I am wrong. You are saying that if a religion does want its followers to follow their own intentions, but instead strictly follow the religion's rules; then that is not acceptable. (?)

I would agree with that line of thinking (if I understand it correctly). We need to be able to follow our own paths to learn the lessons we need to learn.

i disagree...education and knowledge will do that

I agree...education and knowledge very much help in people making selfless decisions...just like religion.

i used to think that way, got me into trouble... assumptions are a dangerous thing

Assumptions are sometimes a very dangerous thing...especially when they are made with faulty information.

i used to be on the inside looking out...now i'm on the outside looking in
my perspective is from hindsight now and now i can see the forrest for the trees...

From what you have said in this thread, I think you may still be only seeing a tree but from a different direction and thinking your looking at the forest. (okay, I guess I went back on my original statement of only agreeing with you. Sorry!)

i've been saying all along...
religion is just another excuse for good and or for bad...
religion isn't what makes the person...the person makes the religion

I only partially agree with you on this, religion has the ability to strengthen and mature the person. The person gets what he/she wants or needs from the religion.

criticising and being skeptical isn't being angry...that is an assumption on your part...

Criticizing and skepticism are symptoms of anger. I was only responding to what I have read.

 

[waitasec]

I agree people (religious or otherwise) can do good deeds and their motives are sometimes selfish and sometimes selfless. I just believe that a most of the times they are self-serving and religion can help adjust their moral compass when in doubt.

well to a degree i agree.
people do charitable deeds and i think for the most part the giver feels good doing it... if the giver thinks they won't feel good about it, i think charity would be almost non existent.

I was speaking about how you keep replacing "reason" with the negative word "excuse". You focused on my example of how you are doing that, ignored what I was saying and then even spun the example in a negative light.

why do you associate excuse with negativity?

excuse: to free, as from an obligation or duty; exempt or a liability to which others are subject

reason was used as an idiom which wasn't clear enough for me to grasp.

excuse cuts right to the core of what i mean while reason is too vague...

Okay, I am not totally clear on what you are saying so I am going to paraphrase what I think you said and please correct me if I am wrong. You are saying that if a religion does want its followers to follow their own intentions, but instead strictly follow the religion's rules; then that is not acceptable. (?)

I would agree with that line of thinking (if I understand it correctly). We need to be able to follow our own paths to learn the lessons we need to learn.

so what did you mean when you said:

religions teach us that we must overcome the need to be decisive.

I agree...education and knowledge very much help in people making selfless decisions...just like religion.

sometimes...

From what you have said in this thread, I think you may still be only seeing a tree but from a different direction and thinking your looking at the forest. (okay, I guess I went back on my original statement of only agreeing with you. Sorry!)

no worries...i figured a disagreement would creep up somewhere...

of course, we are talking about individual perspectives. i've been on both sides of the fence...i may be wrong but you may think i had a really bad experience and became bitter. but what i'm trying to convey is a contrast or the other side of the coin as it where...
i obviously don't know you and why your choices in life brought you to this understanding, but for me i grew up in this and really never questioned it until i got older...
so from my perspective i saw the church for the pews and i see the forest for the trees...

I only partially agree with you on this, religion has the ability to strengthen and mature the person.

it also has the ability to weaken them as well, ultimately it depends on the person...

The person gets what he/she wants or needs from the religion.

which could be good or bad

Criticizing and skepticism are symptoms of anger.

ever watch american idol...or the X factor
the judges don't come off as angry...shocked maybe...but not angry

I was only responding to what I have read.

even if i were angry, which i am not...
would that diminish my argument?

btw, happy rapture day...

 

[Greyn]

I think we may be coming to some common ground. People doing good because it feels good is still self-serving and that is what I mean when I say people rarely do acts that are totally selfless. Religion gives the individual something to focus on (other than themselves), but I agree that does not mean it is an instant cure for the human condition. People must make that decision on their own, so people do make religion what they want of it.

why do you associate excuse with negativity?

Excuse connotes a negative action has taken place and needs to be defended. Reason is a neutral word that leaves room for the reader to interpret the action.

i.e. "His excuse to steal the money was to feed his family." or "His reason to steal the money was to feed his family."

so what did you mean when you said:

Quote:
religions teach us that we must overcome the need to be decisive.

I think we can agree decisive actions are negative and most religions preach that we need to come together. Unity is a fundamental teaching of most religions, but religion is not a substitution of human nature. At best, we can learn with religion how to live with and look after each other better then we can now.

I appreciate you sharing your personal experiences. I seem to have lived the opposite life than you. I grew up being taught to question and be highly suspect of religion of any type. It wasn't until I was very "mature" that I was able to see the value of religion. But, rest assured, I truly understand your skepticism and criticism (even anger) towards religions.

And anger may not diminish our arguments, but it may make us resistant to ideas that are similar to the focus of our anger. This may make it impossible for us to see another point of view, even if that point of view is valid.

Happy Rapture Day to you too! See you on the other side! :angel2:

 

[waitasec]

Excuse connotes a negative action has taken place and needs to be defended. Reason is a neutral word that leaves room for the reader to interpret the action.i.e. "His excuse to steal the money was to feed his family." or "His reason to steal the money was to feed his family."

i see, but i have to commit to my argument by saying what i mean. otherwise, why use words that implies something that is open ended...? know what i mean?

I think we can agree decisive actions are negative

i understand decisive means; the power to decide for ones self...
which is an inalienable right we all have...

and most religions preach that we need to come together. Unity is a fundamental teaching of most religions, but religion is not a substitution of human nature. At best, we can learn with religion how to live with and look after each other better then we can now.

but religions (especially the abrahamic ones) are decisive; meaning it has been decided each religion is the true religion, right? so i do not understand how you think religion brings people together...
granted there are many other religions in the world but the big 3 are the ones holding this planet hostage... not the ones that are more open ended.
actually, i realized my OP should have been more specific...
i should have titled it as; abrahamic religion unites people...yeah right.

I appreciate you sharing your personal experiences. I seem to have lived the opposite life than you. I grew up being taught to question and be highly suspect of religion of any type. It wasn't until I was very "mature" that I was able to see the value of religion. But, rest assured, I truly understand your skepticism and criticism (even anger) towards religions.

And anger may not diminish our arguments, but it may make us resistant to ideas that are similar to the focus of our anger. This may make it impossible for us to see another point of view, even if that point of view is valid.

word from the wise...
you are a beacon of your faith

Happy Rapture Day to you too! See you on the other side! :angel2:

or maybe not...