Religion without an Afterlife

[URAVIP2ME]

Would you adhere to your current religion if there was no promise of an afterlife?
Thanks,
-Lyn

If in this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are of all men most to be pitied.
- Apostle Paul 1 Cor 15v19

I love my religion and would not want to give up being with the people in it.
Since we are at the threshold of divine intervention [Mt25vs31,32] those alive at the time of Jesus taking action who are placed at Jesus right hand of favor, so to speak, will remain alive and keep on living right into the start of Jesus peaceful 1000-year reign over earth. Would you call that an afterlife since they can be alive and remain alive with the possibility of never dying but gaining everlasting life right here on earth?

 

[Penumbra]

I do not dispute that I can't read your thoughts or vice versa, but I do not see this as pointing to an autonomous self with free will. We are mere extensions of the whole of the universe with a brain that produces a sense of being separate and autonomously willing its own actions, but we are not in actuality separate from anything else, just atoms and space. This "self" we perceive is a mere interaction of atoms, constantly changing physically and mentally. It can't be pinned down because there is nothing constant to pin down -- just changing and passing interactions. Continuity creates the illusion of a self, yet who we are at 5 years of age is vastly different than who we are at 50.

In a similar vein, take two robots, performing different functions. Individually, they may be separate robots performing different functions, but they are both a part of the greater whole of the universe, subject to the same laws. Their different functions don't indicate that each robot possesses selfhood. And while they may be different configurations of atoms, they are still just atoms, still not separate from the whole.

And I don't dispute that there is no unchanging, permanent self. A 5 year old is truly different than the same person at 50.

However, I feel that the concept of not having a self is often taken too far. When people believe that there is no unchanging, permanent self, they tend to say that there is no self, which seems to me to be very inaccurate, because there is a self. There is this moment, where you and I perceive the world with separate, discrete, brains. We each have our own memories, too.

A 5 year old and a 50 year old do have some permanent characteristics as well. They have the same DNA and although most of their cells have long since been replenished, they share some of the same brain cells. They also share the same childhood, the same parents, and so forth, because one person is an advancement of the other.

A self is a mere interaction of atoms, but it happens to be a mere interaction of atoms that produces a system capable of creating and supporting an individual consciousness.

-Lyn

 

[Penumbra]

I am a bit of an anomaly here because I have largely moved past any need for a traditional god concept.

Actually that seems fairly common among atheists. I wouldn't call it an anomaly.

The only "vision" I have of "god" at this point is so incredibly rich and incredibly expansive that ordinary god concepts pale in contrast. My model evolves with everything else and simply becomes more. It is not a static thing - in the slightest.

The obvious benefit, Lyn is my life itself. I'm already living in paradise. If you were here, you'd understand why I say that.

Here is a sample Oh Deer: Redux
(The photo's were taken last month.)

I'm not sure I understand what benefit you are talking about.

Those (adorable ) pictures of deer on an island paradise seem to be the benefit of living on an island paradise with a lot of deer. I don't see a connection between that and religion, unless your religion has benefited you by providing you with an island paradise full of deer, or teaches that all one needs to be happy is an island paradise full of deer.

-Lyn

 

[Penumbra]

If in this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are of all men most to be pitied.
- Apostle Paul 1 Cor 15v19

I love my religion and would not want to give up being with the people in it.
Since we are at the threshold of divine intervention [Mt25vs31,32] those alive at the time of Jesus taking action who are placed at Jesus right hand of favor, so to speak, will remain alive and keep on living right into the start of Jesus peaceful 1000-year reign over earth. Would you call that an afterlife since they can be alive and remain alive with the possibility of never dying but gaining everlasting life right here on earth?

Sure, that can count as an afterlife.

Would you say that you'd still hold the same interest in your deity/religion if not for that afterlife?

 

[Thief]

Well, that's 'cause you're not imagining living forever with a crazy scotch buzz. My understanding is that experiencing heaven is like living in a happy hour without end where the bar munchies are hydrocodone tabs and the smoking section has free whippits and the best Bob Marley reefer one can grow in holy soil.

And theme parks.....out of this world!...literally....

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Well, that's 'cause you're not imagining living forever with a crazy scotch buzz. My understanding is that experiencing heaven is like living in a happy hour without end where the bar munchies are hydrocodone tabs and the smoking section has free whippits and the best Bob Marley reefer one can grow in holy soil.

Experiencing heaven according to Revelation 5vs9,10 is that those in heaven have jobs to do.

One job is that of kings.
One job is that of priests.

Kings will take care of governmental responsibilities of those living on earth.
Priests will take care of the spiritual needs of Jesus subjects living on earth during Jesus 1000-year reign over earth. -Rev 20v6.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Sure, that can count as an afterlife.
Would you say that you'd still hold the same interest in your deity/religion if not for that afterlife?

As Paul said we should be pitied if no afterlife [living forever] be possible.
Without a future hope what would it matter because no real religion would exist?
Under present conditions, I'd have the same interest in the people I associate with, but what would be the point of teaching about a future hope if there was no future? Couldn't have an interest in teaching about the future if there were none.

As far as Deity, I feel blessed [ benefited] to know what the Bible really teaches, and I see the benefits in life of applying Godly principles in daily life.
Seeing the daily rewards and benefits from such golden guidance leads me to conclude I'd have at least the same reverence as one would have for a loving and trusted father.

If all on earth lived by the Golden Rule would you like to continue living here?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Those (adorable ) pictures of deer on an island paradise seem to be the benefit of living on an island paradise with a lot of deer. I don't see a connection between that and religion, unless your religion has benefited you by providing you with an island paradise full of deer, or teaches that all one needs to be happy is an island paradise full of deer.
-Lyn

Lyn, I hope you and Penumbra don't mind that I take the liberty to add:

First to be happy one must be alive.
More than an Island, Isaiah [11vs5-9] describes the future time when all animals will be at peace with mankind on a global paradise.

Besides the animal world being at peace with humankind, Isaiah 2v4; Micah 4vs3,4 mentions people being at peace with all people. No more war.

What Adam lost for us in the Garden of Eden, though Jesus all that Adam lost for us will be regained. From Paradise lost to Paradise regained starting with Jesus peaceful thousand-year reign over earth when Jesus ushers in Peace on Earth toward men of goodwill.

 

[newhope101]

I think this is a great question for those that hold onto any sort of afterlife belief..would people believe or even serve if there were no afterlife attached?
If angels came down and said 'hey..you got it wrong there is a god and good pleases him but sorry this is it. At best God may answer a prayer or two".

Gee, there'd have to be blessings for the family or nation or some future paradise earth for the great great grandkids or something, I think. Maybe I'd get used to pleasing a God just for the sake of it...then I'd think of poverty and war and think well if this is it and God won't/can't help the world what would be the point.

 

[Penumbra]

As Paul said we should be pitied if no afterlife [living forever] be possible.
Without a future hope what would it matter because no real religion would exist?
Under present conditions, I'd have the same interest in the people I associate with, but what would be the point of teaching about a future hope if there was no future? Couldn't have an interest in teaching about the future if there were none.

As far as Deity, I feel blessed [ benefited] to know what the Bible really teaches, and I see the benefits in life of applying Godly principles in daily life.
Seeing the daily rewards and benefits from such golden guidance leads me to conclude I'd have at least the same reverence as one would have for a loving and trusted father.

Interesting. Thanks for the answer.

If all on earth lived by the Golden Rule would you like to continue living here?

Well, the world would be a lot better for many people. It wouldn't affect me all that much because I live in a peaceful area and most people are already fairly nice to me. Even if everyone lived by the golden rule, there would still be cancer and hurricanes and stuff.

Lyn, I hope you and Penumbra don't mind that I take the liberty to add:

Penumbra is my user name. Lyn is my first name. It's just me.

 

[doppelganger]

For the life of me, I don't understand why afterlifes would be so important. They're completely speculative, leave little hint as to what to do with this life that we know to exist, and they are not even particularlty constructive as moral concepts.

Nevertheless, they are easy to use to mismanage existential angst by assuaging the ego's feelings of besieged alienation. Combined with the same effect from the community of "believers" into which such beliefs bring a person religion can work wonders for a very egotistical person who can't cope with their own being and mortality.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Well, the world would be a lot better for many people. It wouldn't affect me all that much because I live in a peaceful area and most people are already fairly nice to me. Even if everyone lived by the golden rule, there would still be cancer and hurricanes and stuff.
Penumbra is my user name. Lyn is my first name. It's just me.

Good point Lyn that people even living by the Golden Rule would still, at this present time, still be affected by cancer, hurricanes and stuff.

Don't you find that secular society, even though fairly nice, can only offer limited security? Many feel insecure about crime, violence locking houses and cars. More feel insecure about cost of living or environmental issues.
And even those with health and wealth still may be insecure as to how long will it all last? Even emotional security has proved elusive for many especially when family expectations go unfulfilled.

Questionable conduct and teachings of religious leaders have led people to spiritual insecurity, resulting in putting their faith in science and technology [better living through chemistry] or in the good will or good sense of people around them. Some feel so insecure they prefer not to think deeply about any future.

People can find meaning and purpose in life but only the Scriptures gives us lasting 'hope'. Hope of living either in heaven or on earth forever.
In order to live forever, or have everlasting life, one would need to be healthy. Jesus cures or healings that he did on a small scale while he was on earth demonstrated for us what he will do on a LARGE or GRAND scale during his coming millennial reign over earth.

As far as weather conditions, Jesus also demonstrated that his words can calm a stormy sea, and that is also showing us what he will accomplish during his thousand-year reign over earth. What we see surrounding us is temporary. What the Bible really teaches is that all the good that Jesus has to offer will be permanent as in forever.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Gee, there'd have to be blessings for the family or nation or some future paradise earth for the great great grandkids or something, I think. Maybe I'd get used to pleasing a God just for the sake of it...then I'd think of poverty and war and think well if this is it and God won't/can't help the world what would be the point.

God agrees with you. There has to blessings for family, nations on a paradisaic earth because God made a promise to Abraham.

God promised Abraham [Gen 12v3;22vs17,18] that all families of the earth will be blessed, and all nations of the earth will be blessed.
Jesus fulfills that promise to Abraham- Revelation 22v2.

First, God had to allow enough time for mankind to be born.
Adam chose to obey Satan thus making Satan the god of the world of badness,- 2 Cor 4v4. Rev 12v12 exposes Satan as the one bringing 'woe' to earth. Satan behind the scenes using 'greedy mankind' to cause poverty and war.

Adam chose independence from God, so God does not interfere with that choice. The world scene today shows to all that independence from God does not work. That is why God's war [Rev 16v16] is the war that will end all wars by destroying or annihilating all supporters of evil or wickedness [Psalm 92v7] and delivering or saving upright ones right into the start of Jesus peaceful 1000-year reign over earth.

 

[Storm]

It seems like an afterlife is a key topic in many current religions. There are some exceptions, but it's a pretty strong trend.

Would you adhere to your current religion if there was no promise of an afterlife? For instance, if Allah revealed something like the Qur'an but offered no afterlife to Muslims or anyone, or if Jesus preached for people to love their enemies and neighbors and to avoid sin but that when you die, you're dead, so just make the world a better place while you're here, or if there was no afterlife in Hinduism, or if your pantheon of gods didn't offer you an afterlife, etc.

Undoubtedly these religions would be significantly altered without the afterlife, because for some of them, their entire model and cosmology would be changed, but when answering try to keep it as simple as possible. If most of the aspects of your religion were still around, and you still believed your god(s) to be real, but without any afterlife involved, would you bother to be a part of your current religion or no? Would the benefits of your religion, whatever it is that they happen to be, be worth it in this life?

And if you currently adhere to a religion that does not involve an afterlife or downplays it significantly, then you can contribute to the thread by explaining what benefits you receive from your religion in this life.

Thanks,
-Lyn

This is a tricky question for me. While I do believe there's a divine seed of consciousness, which is immortal, it's not me. I believe the personality is as dependent on the brain as the "soul." *I* am an event, one which will end sooner or later. So, I'm going to come down on the side of "no afterlife."

As for benefits of my theology, I just want to KNOW. I seek understanding. For me, it's enough.

 

[Penumbra]

This is a tricky question for me. While I do believe there's a divine seed of consciousness, which is immortal, it's not me. I believe the personality is as dependent on the brain as the "soul." *I* am an event, one which will end sooner or later. So, I'm going to come down on the side of "no afterlife."

As for benefits of my theology, I just want to KNOW. I seek understanding. For me, it's enough.

When people describe that type of reincarnation to me, it does seem synonymous with there being no afterlife for all practical purposes. The concept of a divine seed of consciousness seems rather vague to me.

If my personality, memories, and body cease to exist, but something unrelated to those things continues, then I see little reason to call that an afterlife. If I die, and a totally separate person is born, it doesn't seem to make a difference whether there was some seed of consciousness or not. It's along the lines of what "continuity of consciousness" is, which I mentioned I'm thinking of making a thread on.

 

[Storm]

When people describe that type of reincarnation to me, it does seem synonymous with there being no afterlife for all practical purposes. The concept of a divine seed of consciousness seems rather vague to me.

Yeah, it's difficult to articulate.

If my personality, memories, and body cease to exist, but something unrelated to those things continues, then I see little reason to call that an afterlife.

I believe the rhys (that divine seed) will remember me, but it's like waking from a dream where you're someone else.

If I die, and a totally separate person is born, it doesn't seem to make a difference whether there was some seed of consciousness or not. It's along the lines of what "continuity of consciousness" is, which I mentioned I'm thinking of making a thread on.

I wait with bated breath.

 

[Penumbra]

I believe the rhys (that divine seed) will remember me, but it's like waking from a dream where you're someone else.

I've considered that approach before.

The key question, though is again about the continuity of consciousness. Is it the same being waking up?

You mentioned that you believe in reincarnation. But we don't remember our past lives. I don't remember waking up from a dream where I was someone else. So do you believe in some sort of transitory period between lives where on remembers?

 

[Storm]

I've considered that approach before.

The key question, though is again about the continuity of consciousness. Is it the same being waking up?

Yes. It's the same unit of consciousness.

You mentioned that you believe in reincarnation. But we don't remember our past lives. I don't remember waking up from a dream where I was someone else. So do you believe in some sort of transitory period between lives where on remembers?

I think there might be such a period. I also believe that the rhys always remembers. We just don't have access to that information.

 

[crimsonlung]

Well, that's 'cause you're not imagining living forever with a crazy scotch buzz. My understanding is that experiencing heaven is like living in a happy hour without end where the bar munchies are hydrocodone tabs and the smoking section has free whippits and the best Bob Marley reefer one can grow in holy soil.

Same for me, sans hydrocodone, and instead morphine drip

 

[Tathagata]

Zen Koan:

A samurai once asked Zen Master Hakuin where he would go after he died.
Hakuin answered 'How am I supposed to know?'
'How do you not know? You're a Zen master!' exclaimed the samurai.
'Yes, but not a dead one,' Hakuin answered.