Religion without faith

[blackout]

Imagine that all that you take on faith in your religion was subsequently proven, clearly to be true. No longer would faith as it were be required, and everyone just knew these things like a matter of fact. Would that in itself devalue the religion for you in any way?

i.e. with no change in content, would its universal acceptance as fact take away any special value that made it important in the first place?

Please provide any reasons you have for your answers.

Nope. In fact I'm sure I'd be a more ardent practitioner.
(purposeful/artful symbolism>> to purposeful/artful reality)

Suspension of disbelief,
is REALLY not the same thing as 'faith' though.
So I'm not sure the question really applies.

 

[Heneni]

Imagine that all that you take on faith in your religion was subsequently proven

Hello Alex

There is a very wide spread misconception among christians and non-christians that our faith is based on things that cannot be proven.

However within the framework of my religion (christianity) that would just not be true. A christian's faith is based on a proven God.

So how has God proven himself? Well, He never said he would do something he didnt do. He never said he was something that he wasnt. He fullfilled his promises to Israel so he has proven to be reliable.

The faith a christian has is based on the proven integirty and character of God throughout history,even though we dont see him we believe and love him. We do not have to personally see him all we need is to know that he is who he says he is, does what he says he will do, and did what he said he would do. And this is clear all through history. So our faith is based on God's proven track record.

If then later on the world comes to the realisation that we were right to put our faith in such a proven God it would result in more glory and honor to him and so would not diminish from our faith in any way.

(I can hear the nay-sayers already.....)

Heneni

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

Hello Alex

There is a very wide spread misconception among christians and non-christians that our faith is based on things that cannot be proven.

However within the framework of my religion (christianity) that would just not be true. A christian's faith is based on a proven God.

So how has God proven himself? Well, He never said he would do something he didnt do. He never said he was something that he wasnt. He fullfilled his promises to Israel so he has proven to be reliable.

The faith a christian has is based on the proven integirty and character of God throughout history,even though we dont see him we believe and love him. We do not have to personally see him all we need is to know that he is who he says he is, does what he says he will do, and did what he said he would do. And this is clear all through history. So our faith is based on God's proven track record.

If then later on the world comes to the realisation that we were right to put our faith in such a proven God it would result in more glory and honor to him and so would not diminish from our faith in any way.

(I can hear the nay-sayers already.....)

Heneni

Then I'll be the first 'nay-sayer'. What objective proof can you produce that proves your god? If you're god was such a proven god, then there would be very little doubt about his existence, but just 1/3 of the world's population are Christians, and even then they can't agree on both major and minor doctrines, even amongst those who consider themselves "Bible only, literal intepretation, and the Bible is self-interpreting" kind.

 

[Alex_G]

Hello Alex

There is a very wide spread misconception among christians and non-christians that our faith is based on things that cannot be proven.

However within the framework of my religion (christianity) that would just not be true. A christian's faith is based on a proven God.

Hey Heneni, long time since I've crossed paths with you on the front line of forum discussion! Hope ur well.

I would challenge your idea that God is proven outright to exist.

The fact is, there really is no universally recognised proof, undisputable evidence for a divine being, be that one of a deist argument (a creator or designer of the universe and life) or that of a theistic argument (a god that takes an interest in our lives, intervenes, answers prayers and performs miracles and so on). Additionally there is most certainly no evidence to support any one religions idea of god over others. The famous quote 'no one still believes in Zeues, Raa or Loki, we are all atheists to most gods, atheists just take it one god further' comes to mind. You must agree you dont believe in these gods either right?

My point is, what your talking about is just a personal interpretation of yours, one decisive position that you take on God. I think that you want to believe in God, so you make the connections with things around you so they seem to support.

So how has God proven himself? Well, He never said he would do something he didnt do. He never said he was something that he wasnt. He fullfilled his promises to Israel so he has proven to be reliable.

The faith a christian has is based on the proven integirty and character of God throughout history,even though we dont see him we believe and love him. We do not have to personally see him all we need is to know that he is who he says he is, does what he says he will do, and did what he said he would do. And this is clear all through history. So our faith is based on God's proven track record.

What your doing here, in argumentative terms is committing a fallacy of 'begging the question'. Your proposition or conclusion to be proven (Gods existence) is being assumed in the premise of you statement. You cannot, as a result come to the valid conclusion that God exists. I.e. You are already assuming God's existence and using that as reasoning to try and prove his existence.

If then later on the world comes to the realisation that we were right to put our faith in such a proven God it would result in more glory and honor to him and so would not diminish from our faith in any way.

(I can hear the nay-sayers already.....)

Heneni

What if the God of a different religion was proven to exist? (hypothetically of course) How would you deal with that?

 

[Heneni]

Then I'll be the first 'nay-sayer'. What objective proof can you produce that proves your god? If you're god was such a proven god, then there would be very little doubt about his existence, but just 1/3 of the world's population are Christians, and even then they can't agree on both major and minor doctrines, even amongst those who consider themselves "Bible only, literal intepretation, and the Bible is self-interpreting" kind.

My answer might not satisfy you. I’m afraid this is going to get worse before it will get better. How does one produce proof that someone has a certain character? By their track record. There is no scientific device that measures character. This kind of thing cannot be proved scientifically. Character does not have an SI unit (Standard International Unit). How objective can a person be when looking at someone's track record? You tell me. I propose that your answer will in some way be subjective

I know this is rather frustrating for some people who would claim that they have no clue whether there is a God or not. I sympathise to a certain extent only. I know that the Bible claims that there is no such person on the planet and I believe what it says.

Israel's history is not something that we can just wipe out of existence. And so neither can we wipe out their history with their and now my God. It would be strange if I for my own private pleasure want to wipe out the history of americans or the australians because I am uncomfortable with what that might imply for me.

If you told and Jew 2000 years ago that God was not real he would have laughed at you. They didn’t have frivolous experiences with their God. He made it abundantly clear on several occasions that he was and still is real.

As far as the different kinds of denominations, it has been prophesied in the bible that there will be a drastic increase in deception in the latter days. Its not like we did not know it was going to happen, in fact if anything all these deceptions and/or divisions is yet again perfect proof that the bible has in the past and still predicts things incredibly accurately.

As for the number of christians on this planet, I propose they make up less than a 1/3 of mankind. The word christian has been tossed around so much it has no more meaning anymore. God has a desire to be known all over the world but he has no desire to horde people simply because it looks good on his CV. He himself said 'few are they that find' the way.

Heneni

 

[ninerbuff]

Personally I think that religion without faith is currently going on. Look at all the "sinners" who don't give a damn, yet claim to be religious.

 

[Heneni]

My point is, what your talking about is just a personal interpretation of yours, one decisive position that you take on God. I think that you want to believe in God, so you make the connections with things around you so they seem to support.

I have my feet firmly on the ground dont worry.

I understand anybody's concern that I be sure, but I also understand that in the same way you might think that I want to believe in God, I am of the opinion that you don't so you make disconnection or alternative connections. You might say i suffer from delusions I think you suffer from the same thing, but for a different reason.

The truth is often stranger than fiction, and history is not generally considered to be fiction or else they would lump these together in my much loved local library.

Israel has a history and Jesus was a historical character and could not possibly have been a figment of everyone's imagination. Now true, there is no level to which people wont sink to make the obvious dissapear but i prefer to stick to what to me is very clear. The isrealites have a history, and NO, nobody has the right to rewrite history and YES Jesus was a historical character and NO I dont believe we have the right to erase things out of our collective existance just because its making us uncomfortable. For the same reason we can't just throw the bible out, it contains a great deal of Israel's history.

As far as all the 'other god's' they have come and gone in the last 6000 years, the God of abraham has stood the test of time.

There are reasons why I believe that the God of abraham is the only true God but that is not the purpose of this thread and I might very well have derailed it a little already.

Heneni

 

[Alex_G]

I have my feet firmly on the ground dont worry.

I understand anybody's concern that I be sure, but I also understand that in the same way you might think that I want to believe in God, I am of the opinion that you don't so you make disconnection or alternative connections. You might say i suffer from delusions I think you suffer from the same thing, but for a different reason.

The truth is often stranger than fiction, and history is not generally considered to be fiction or else they would lump these together in my much loved local library.

Israel has a history and Jesus was a historical character and could not possibly have been a figment of everyone's imagination. Now true, there is no level to which people wont sink to make the obvious dissapear but i prefer to stick to what to me is very clear. The isrealites have a history, and NO, nobody has the right to rewrite history and YES Jesus was a historical character and NO I dont believe we have the right to erase things out of our collective existance just because its making us uncomfortable. For the same reason we can't just throw the bible out, it contains a great deal of Israel's history.

As far as all the 'other god's' they have come and gone in the last 6000 years, the God of abraham has stood the test of time.

There are reasons why I believe that the God of abraham is the only true God but that is not the purpose of this thread and I might very well have derailed it a little already.

Heneni

I dont mind a little derailment But starting a new thread could be an idea.

Lets be clear we are talking about the supernatural claims of religion, as opposed to the mere natural or incidental aspects. It one thing to say there was a man that existed called Jesus who preached to the people, but its another thing to claim his rising from the dead, walking on water as fact. I dont want to get into a debate about the former, and want to consider the latter, i.e. the supernatural claims only.

I assume your authority on this history that contains evidence of the supernatural is the Bible, is that correct? You say no one has the right to tamper with history, but don't you agree that during the lifetime of the Bible, there have been many hands involved in its writing, with huge degrees of editing, including later omissions and inclusions, and from what it seems fairly political motives. Would you agree that the reliability of the Bible, as an eye witness report is therefore somewhat compromised? Especially regarding exceptional events that duly require exceptional evidence?

Secondly, such overt and obvious manifestations of divinity and the supernatural occurred according to the Bible, but its interesting that nothing of the sort has occurred in recent history, or where any living persons today have been able to see first hand.

Finally, i would turn to David Hume's logic regarding claims if the supernatural and miracles. If you one day saw a man walking down the street who you previously saw executed, you must ask yourself, what is more likely? Have the laws of nature suspended themselves, and in a way that favours you, or are you under a grave misapprehension? With all such situations u should ask yourself this, and its especially important and relevant if you didnt even see the phenomenon yourself and are hearing it from someone else, or from text, such as the Bible.



As a side note, i think there is a difference in the position religion takes to mine (non religious). The truth of the matter is that i dont know if there is a God, no one knows, no one could possibly know. What i doubt very much, is that any religious texts have any more insight into the nature of our universe than our front line scientific research and contemporary thinking. As such i remain undecided as to the true nature of things, and dont jump to conclusions without good reason which i think is sensible. That is different to the creation of stories and alleged phenomenon that arnt adequately backed up with evidence. Nothing in the Bible coudnt have been coceived and written by humans alone.

Alex