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Religions outside the Christian Church

martha dodge said:
First of all, you need to understand that Father God created us and He wants us to love Him. I mean really love HIM. Jesus said that Father God wants, most of all , our hearts. Like real honest love. Like for us to give it back.
So God only loves those who love Him back? I thought true love was unconditional. Luke 6:32 "For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them."


You know that you can do right things for the wrong reason. You can help someone because you feel sorry for them and you pity them. Or you can help someone because not helping would make you appear hard and cold. Or you can help someone out of guilt. But Father God wants us to help others because He loves them and we should also.
Lots of people, not just Christians, help others because they love them.
This help should always be given in Our Father's name and because we love HIM. That, in my opinion, is what being morally right is all about.
What if someone is moral because he/she loves that which is morally good?
Isn't God, by definition, all that is good?
In loving that which is good, doesn't one love God, then?
If someone does what is right in the name of right, isn't that the same as doing what is right in the name of God--since God is all that is right?
 
If you say that someone can get into heaven through their good deeds then anyone can get into heaven. However, this is not possible because we can never do enough to earn our own salvation. It is impossible to do so. Holy Scripture says that we are saved through faith in the grace of God poured out to us via the sacrifice of his Son, Jesus Christ, on the cross. If you do not belief this, then you are damned. Therefore, it is not possible for other religious types to be saved due to their denial of Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour. This is the Christian faith.
 
Mr. Sprinkles, you make the greatest case for everyone to be Christian and to follow Jesus that I have ever heard and you seem to be trying so hard not too.
Father God is the only daddy I have ever known and I no longer have my mother so it is just me and my Father. He sent my brother, Jesus, the only one I have also, down to make it possible for me to live and love in this mess we call earth until He gets my home ready in Heaven. My Father never does anything that is not best for me. My Father is always right in everything He says. He has never lied to me in 60 years. My blessed brother Jesus, took the bullet meant for me from satan, who wanted to condemn me to Hell. Have I got a great family or what. Why would any reasonable person turn that down? You got any ideas?
 
martha--

If someone came up to you and said that the Unicorn King wants to wisk you away to lollypop land to live with the unicorns, and all you have to do is believe in him for this to happen, how would you respond? Would you fall to your knees and profess belief in the Unicorn King? After all, I am sure no reasonable person would turn down this offer...right?

A reasonable person can look at the evidence and weigh it objectively to figure out whether or not it is true, rather than wanting it to be true so badly that his judgement is clouded, and his mind already made up before the opposing arguments are seen. Martha, look again at the questions in my previous post. Doesn't this mean that moral atheists would get into heaven?

Also one last thing--I am not trying hard not to be Christian (it is actually quite easy once you learn to think for yourself :mrgreen: ) I am simply asking some (hopefully) provocative questions that may get people to think about things.
 

quick

Member
Mr_Spinkles said:
Buddhists do not believe in any deity, either. Why would good, moral buddhists or atheists not be allowed into heaven?

In many ways, is not the morality of an atheist superior to that of many Christians, in that the good moral atheist does good deeds without expectation of reward in heaven, but simply out of the goodness of his/her heart?

Christianity teaches that you are saved by grace, not by works. All men are sinners, so no one--no one-lives a "moral" live. We are in fact incapable of it, as we have all inherited Adam's sin-nature and deserve death.

Read Ephesians 2, posted below:

1As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature[1] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. 4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved. 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Christianity is unique in that it teaches that we are saved/made rigtheous/achieve nirnana/approach the diety/etc./ by God's grace, not by our own good works and efforts.
 

anders

Well-Known Member
As I have understood them, salvation through grace alone is Lutheran, while Catholcs believe that you can contribute yourself towards salvation through your deeds.
 
quick said:
Christianity is unique in that it teaches that we are saved/made rigtheous/achieve nirnana/approach the diety/etc./ by God's grace, not by our own good works and efforts.
Wouldn't the Christian view of a loving God give all humans His grace, thereby saving people of all beliefs? Or does He only give His grace to some? Doesn't He love everyone?
 
quick said:
Mr_Spinkles said:
Buddhists do not believe in any deity, either. Why would good, moral buddhists or atheists not be allowed into heaven?

In many ways, is not the morality of an atheist superior to that of many Christians, in that the good moral atheist does good deeds without expectation of reward in heaven, but simply out of the goodness of his/her heart?

Christianity teaches that you are saved by grace, not by works. All men are sinners, so no one--no one-lives a "moral" live. We are in fact incapable of it, as we have all inherited Adam's sin-nature and deserve death.

Read Ephesians 2, posted below:

1As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature[1] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. 4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved. 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Christianity is unique in that it teaches that we are saved/made rigtheous/achieve nirnana/approach the diety/etc./ by God's grace, not by our own good works and efforts.

Right on Quick!
 
Mr. Spinkles, I am a child of God now, but that was not always so. I was also a seeking agnostic who said " OK God if you are out there, prove it." The unicorn king did not show up. Father God did and He has proven more than sufficient and more than wise for 30 years. That is why my questioning has turned to testifying.
God bless you always.
 

Corban

Member
Your concept of heaven is so far off base from that of christianity as a whole that your question can not be accurately answered by "christians" you ask if groups outside of christianity are accepted into heaven, i ask if you consider yourself christian. and if you do then the idea of Christianity is spread so thin among so many beliefs that any attempt to group these ideologically seperate people together for the purpose of examination will fail simply because a foundatin for answer does not exist. Grouping differnent concepts into one large whole only creates an ambiguous whole whereon no idea true or false can be addressed. So before we even begin to answer your question of whether those outside of christianity can get into heaven, we must first answer, who are Christians, and what is heaven. i'll take it one step farther because i know many of you will fail to answer this correctly. a belief in Christ can not addequeately define if someone is Christian, because there is only one Christ, so if two people believe different things about this being who does not change than either one or both are wrong and either one or both are not Christian because they believe in a false Christ. just as i can not call the lamp in my bedroom Jesus and worship it and truly be considered a Christian, those who have false beliefs about Jesus can not remain in the group of Christians, and summarily if there are differing beliefs among a group of Christians it must be admitted some of them are wrong and they are not therefore true Christians who worship a false Christ
 
Mr_Spinkles said:
Wouldn't the Christian view of a loving God give all humans His grace, thereby saving people of all beliefs? Or does He only give His grace to some? Doesn't He love everyone?

I am not Christian. I am asking the individuals who are Christian what they believe, and why. I think what is quoted above is a very valid question and one worth honestly considering. I realize there are different groups of Christians with different beliefs....so let's hear what each group/individual has to say.
 
Mr. Spinkles, Father God would love to give you grace to accept Him and would love to give you faith to believe more, but you won't take it. It is not Father God's fault. He has done everything that He can do. Jesus' death and resurrection was sufficient. Now it is up to each one of us.
 

Master Vigil

Well-Known Member
If that is all god can do, than he can't do too much can he? That limits his omnipotence, and when god is limited, god is no longer god.
 
quick said that people are saved by God's grace, not by our works, or anything we can do. According to quick as I understood him, it is not a matter of anyone accepting or rejecting grace....it is a matter of being given or not being given grace.

I am going to start a topic about this in the Religious Debates forum, so I don't have to be so wary of expressing my own opinion.
 
There would be disagreement on my part with Martha Dodge. Grace is freely given to all people. The Holy Spirit works faith in us to apprehend it. However, there are those who would refuse to hear and accept the Gospel and therefore not allow the Holy Spirit to work faith in them.
 
I will stand corrected LCMS. It is Father God's grace which allows even atheist to live another day. We are all under His grace in that manner but Faith is only as we allow it to grow and I believe that the only prayer Father God hears from one who has rejected Him is Father, forgive me. So an unbeliver does not even have the grace of prayers heard( other than one of repentance). I would hope all who enter here would one day pray that or have prayed it.
 

quick

Member
SpiritualSon said:
The Heathen, or Peoples Outside of the Church, in Heaven.
There is a general opinion that those born outside of the church, who are called the nations, or heathen, cannot be saved, because not having the Word they know nothing about the Lord, and apart from the Lord there is no salvation.

But that these also are saved this alone makes certain, that the mercy of the Lord is universal, that is, extends to every individual.That these equally with those within the church, who are few in comparison, are born men, and that their ignorance of the Lord is not their fault.

Any one who thinks from any enlightened reason can see that no man is born for hell, for the Lord is love itself and His love is to will the salvation of all.

Therefore He has provided a religion for every one, and by it acknowledgment of the Divine and interior life. For to live in accordance with one's religion is to live interiorly, since one then looks to the Divine, and so far as he looks to the Divine he does not look to the world but separates himself from the world, that is, from the life of the world, which is exterior life.

That the heathen equally with Christians are saved any one can see who knows what it is that makes heaven in man.For heaven is within man, and those that have heaven within them come into heaven.

Heaven with man is acknowledging the Divine and being led by the Divine. The first and chief thing of every religion is to acknowledge the Divine. A religion that does not acknowledge the Divine is no religion.

The precepts of every religion look to worship, thus to the way in which the Divine is to be worshiped that the worship may be acceptable to Him.When this has been settled in one's mind, that is, so far as one wills this or so far as he loves it, he is led by the Lord.

Every one knows that the heathen as well as Christians live a moral life, and many of them a better life than Christians.

Moral life may be lived either out of regard to the Divine or out of regard to men in the world.A moral life that is lived out of regards to the Divine is a spiritual life.

In outward form the two appear alike, but in inward form they are wholly different; the one saves man, the other does not.

For he who lives a moral life out of regard to the Divine is led by the Divine. He who leads a moral life out of regard to men in the world is led by himself.

But this may be illustrated by an example. He that refrains from doing evil to his neighbor because it is antagonistic to religion, that is, antagonistic to the Divine, refrains from doing evil from a spiritual motive.

He that refrains from doing evil to another merely from fear of the law, or the loss of reputation, of honor, or gain, that is, from regard to self and the world, refrains from doing evil from a natural motive, and is led by himself,not by the Divine.

The life of the latter is natural, that of the former is spiritual. A man whose moral life is spiritual has heaven within him. But he whose moral life is merely natural does not have heaven within him.

For the reason that heaven flows in from above and opens man's interiors, and through his interiors flows into his exteriors; while the world flows in from beneath and opens the exteriors but not the interiors, For there can be no flowing in from the natural world into the spiritual, but only from the spiritual world into the natural.

Therefore if heaven is not also received, the interiors remain closed. All this makes clear who those are that receive heaven within them, and who do not.


And yet heaven is not the same in one as in another. It differs in each one in accordance with his affection for good and its truth. Those that are in an affection for good out of regard to the Divine, love Divine truth, since good and truth love each other and desire to be conjoined.

This explains why the heathen, although they are not in genuine truths in the world, yet because of their love receive truths in the other life.

The heathen (religions outside the Christian Church)who have led a moral life and have lived in obedience and subordination and mutual charity in accordance with their religion, and have thus received something of conscience, are accepted in the other life, and are there instructed with solicitous care by the angels in the goods and truths of faith; and that when they are being taught they behave themselves modestly, intelligently, and wisely, and readily accept truths and adopt them.

They have not worked out for themselves any principles of falsity antagonistic to the truths of faith that will need to be shaken off, still less cavils against the Lord, as many Christians have who cherish no other idea of Him than that He is an ordinary man. The heathen on the contrary when they hear that Jehovah God has become a Man, and has thus manifested Himself in the world, immediately acknowledge it and worship the Lord, saying that because God is the God of heaven and of earth, and because the human race is His, He has fully disclosed Himself to men.

It is a Divine truth that apart from the Lord there is no salvation.But this is to be understood to mean that there is no salvation except from the Lord.

There are many earths in the universe, and all of them full of inhabitants, scarcely any of whom know that the Lord took on the Human on our earth. Yet because they worship the Divine under a human form they are accepted and led by the Lord.

Harry

I would suggest you read the Bible--the authority--rather than speculating in this fashion. Speculation by fallen man is dangerous.
 
martha dodge said:
We will a have a new home in the after-life somewhere. Our soul and spirit will live forever.

Do you realize that the concept of afterlife came from the Egyptians and the Persians?
The Idea of afterlife and resurrection was borrowed by Christians from previous cultures that wrote about it thousands of years before Jesus was said to have been born and died.
 
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