Workman
UNIQUE
Have a rest mate.
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religiosity and/or strength of religious belief is associated with less intelligence
- Thread starter charlie sc
- Start date
ecco
Veteran Member
Did you make that up by yourself, or did you copy / paste it from the list entitled:
If Ya Got Nuttin, Evade.
Workman
UNIQUE
Yeah your right. See yah, good luck!
Audie
Veteran Member
According to Pew, the Hindus, Unitarians and Jews are
the best educated, the JW, Baptists and Church of God
the least.
IQ is hard to measure, education does come with
numbers.
"Intelligent" or not, the fundies to cluster around
the lowest education and income end of the scale.
You can see it here on the forum, with our creationists
saying the most ridiculous uneducated things!
We cannot even teach them that science does not
do proof!
the best educated, the JW, Baptists and Church of God
the least.
IQ is hard to measure, education does come with
numbers.
"Intelligent" or not, the fundies to cluster around
the lowest education and income end of the scale.
You can see it here on the forum, with our creationists
saying the most ridiculous uneducated things!
We cannot even teach them that science does not
do proof!
Workman
UNIQUE
There is no such thing as being successful, because their unsuccessfulness is ALWAYS there to eat them back! Which may in deed of leading ones(IQ) in not understanding FULLY what that means! IQ creates itself for one reason only; and that reason is for one to work with, meaning you create your own successes as well as your own unsuccessfulness..IQ is ONLY knowledge but sometimes it may not be an understanding! Because you make of it “YOUR OWN” kind of way(selfishness). Therefore You choose in which you want known to understand, leading other knowledges to their mis-understandings..but here’s the thing though! The mind is much more complex than what you know of, meaning there are no such thing in not understanding!, in other words; “you choose in what to understand, than chose in what NOT to understand”. Making of ones choices in being confused for an non understanding..so they say!
if you don’t give what you know ‘YOUR TIME’ for it, and TRY to understand in it, you wont comprehend how it works. Not to say..you may know of it, BUT! you will NEVER understand it. That is the difference! One can only be of what (s)he’s experienced in life..wether if living in a career of IQ(s) or living without it..if one chooses to work for their happiness..than I would recommend IQ(s) would be the best answer, but if one chooses happiness without the work(IQ), then It does not matter. We all chasing what makes us happy. Only difference is, the work.
So that You may know! I dont think I qualify for IQ(s)..I failed in all my exams. learning the English language was partly my downfall, Im now 35yrs, I think..lol and still trying my best to understand the language.
Peace happily ever after!
if you don’t give what you know ‘YOUR TIME’ for it, and TRY to understand in it, you wont comprehend how it works. Not to say..you may know of it, BUT! you will NEVER understand it. That is the difference! One can only be of what (s)he’s experienced in life..wether if living in a career of IQ(s) or living without it..if one chooses to work for their happiness..than I would recommend IQ(s) would be the best answer, but if one chooses happiness without the work(IQ), then It does not matter. We all chasing what makes us happy. Only difference is, the work.
So that You may know! I dont think I qualify for IQ(s)..I failed in all my exams. learning the English language was partly my downfall, Im now 35yrs, I think..lol and still trying my best to understand the language.
Peace happily ever after!
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Jollybear
Hey
Thats way over simplified. People are testifying they are seeing events from ABOVE there body from the cealing. Doctors are saying the patients are unconcious, eyes closed. Aome people even go outside the operating room and report events.
Thats a good question.
Ill give the same answer as sam pernia gave to that. He said and i paraphrase, if conciousness is independent of brain then the brain is like a tv and conciousness is like the network wave of electricity. The tv does not produce the network. The network also dont produce the tv. But the network activates the pictures and communications on the tv. If however the tv is broken, the the network even though its not damaged, will not go through properly.
So, your grandmother is still IN THERE as ger real self, just the reciever is broke.
Jollybear
Hey
There is lots of very good youtube videos. Theres also no good ones too. Just like google. Theres good websites and bad ones. Theres good and theres also better.
But, as far as alien abductions, thats a red herring, apples to oranges. Your not dealing with the video i gave you itself. That video is the testimony of the case in the paper charlie gave me. Its a good video.
sooda
Veteran Member
Jollybear
Hey
Yes, thats true, however, in the case of NDErs, you have such a wide variety of backrounds from them and there testimony has similarities, that biases from ALL of the testifiers seams unlikely. Uspeasally the atheists, agnostics and non religious, secular individuals and even some religious folk too.
Well, if this is a lie, then the patient and the hospital worker conspired together to get publicity on it.
Or, one of them lied and either saw the shoe prior and told the worker.
Or, the experience is authentic.
I think its authentic because the description of the shoe was detailed and accurate. The ledge of the building would be dangerious to try to plant this. Also seeing it from the outside would he deficult from such a hight.
Yep, we probably can
Ok, when would you like to look at a example of jeffrey longs NDEs on his website? His questions are also geared to authenticate if the experience is real too. If he suspects fraud, he does not post it on his site, he mentions that.
He asks the experiencer a wide range of questions. Like, the content of the experience. Also did it change them. Also what was there beliefs before and after. All these and more questions are asks. The same questions are asked to over 6 thousand people and building.
charlie sc
Well-Known Member
Indeed. There are similarities. Does that mean people are leaving their body or is it a condition of the dying brain, which makes them have similar experiences. Similarly, we have diagnosis criteria for many diseases, including psychological, that doesn't mean something mystical is going on.
So here are some possible explanations I can think of. I'll go from top(I think most likely) to bottom (less likely).
She didn't know, but the person that went to get it either planted it or just got it from wherever(if she was alone)
She saw it one time or another while passing it inside
She didn't know but someone suggested it to her(you'll see this type of suggestion in police interviews)
She conspired with someone to put it there
She had an outer body experience
I assume you take it as the opposite likelihood? This is why it's importantly to eliminate the other reasons before getting to something unexplained. This is not to say I think like this all the time, but incredible claims require incredible evidence.This is why the best experiments are double blinded. This means that neither the participants nor the experimenters know what the experiment is about. This is to reduce any influence or confounding variables in the results. Btw, for me, the shoe being on such a weird spot makes it less likely it was placed there, at all
Yes, we can but let's discuss one thing on the article I linked before we get there. Gimme a bit to go through it
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ecco
Veteran Member
I did deal with the video that you linked. That's why I said:
A youtube video! Seriously? Is that your standard of evidence?
How can you seriously expect anyone to accept a youtube video showing an anecdotal story as evidence?
How can you seriously accept a youtube video showing an anecdotal story as evidence?
And no, relating her video to videos of alien abductions is not a red herring. That you don't understand that is amazing.
ecco
Veteran Member
You just refuse to understand that anecdotal stories are anecdotal stories.
If OBE is so prevalent, why is there no independent double-blind study confirming it? Don't you think that proponents of OBE would have conducted double-blind studies to prove their contentions? Have they published the results? NO!
charlie sc
Well-Known Member
Btw, I just checked the paper I linked and he did talk about the shoe https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/0f...4.2119046172.1553628971-1635566857.1553628971
I skimmed through it but didn't read all of it. Mostly because everything he says just confirms what I think so it gets a bit boring
This is a pretty easy to read literature review of OBE and NDE studies from to 2015 and prior
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charlie sc
Well-Known Member
I thought you might find this funny.
And I thought this would be important for our discussion.
I always try check if there's a conflict of interest. So, I was curious who this Kimberly Clark Sharp social worker is, who found the shoe. She's not just social worker. She, apparently also had NDEs and sells books on this topic - Amazon.co.uk: Kimberly Sharp: Books and she also talks about her experience in numerous YouTube videos. Therefore, she's not neutral nor objective in this matter.
This is a bit of a double whammy, because not only does she make money from NDE but she is one herself. This is only from a brief internet search and I bet she makes some money from being some sort of psychic as well
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ecco
Veteran Member
And I thought this would be important for our discussion.
I always try check if there's a conflict of interest. So, I was curious who this Kimberly Clark Sharp social worker is, who found the shoe. She's not just social worker. She, apparently also had NDEs and sells books on this topic - Amazon.co.uk: Kimberly Sharp: Books and she also talks about her experience in numerous YouTube videos. Therefore, she's not neutral nor objective in this matter.
.
This is a bit of a double whammy, because not only does she make money from NDE but she is one herself. This is only from a brief internet search and I bet she makes some money from being some sort of psychic as well
If I was going to write about NDE's for the sheeples, I would definitely claim that I had several.
On one of them, it was the strangest thing, my body moved slowly toward the ceiling for several feet and then my body rotated and I was looking down on myself. I never realized how handsome I really was. I could now see why the women always flocked to me. I could see the lovely nurse staring longingly at me. I felt my body descending into to standing position behind her, I slowly...
Oops. Better stop there. Maybe instead of writing NDEs I should write Erotic Romance Novels.
Jollybear
Hey
And if you wrote that as your NDE, i would feel it was BS, just because of the WAY its written.
And you just refuse to understand theres millions of them and i have a few of my own, which are authentic, but only i know that.
Yes! They did publish papers, i gave those in a prior link.
But, you just want better then that, but due to the nature of the experience it cannot be fully studied as they want, perhaps in the future they can figure out more ways to study it further.
But, in my view, remote viewing, astral projection and NDEs have been studied enough for me to conclude its real. The evidence just is not enough to your satisfaction however.
Because its a case in point and its one out of millions.
Because its a case in point, and its 1 out of millions. I had my own, so i know its real, the phenomenon.
And yes, relating NDE stories to alien abduction stories is a red herring. That you dont understand that is amazing.
Jollybear
Hey
So, if the experience is authentic and similar, why would the one part of it be authentic (the OBE) but the veridical perceptions part not be authentic? Is it because the veridical perceptions would indicate the OBE is none halucinatory?
Yes, i take it as the opposite likelyhood.
Thats just the thing, i dont think this is incredable, i think its a normal part of reality that wer not sensetive too due to being in our bodies that puts us on a lower frequency if ya will.
This is why the best experiments are double blinded. This means that neither the participants nor the experimenters know what the experiment is about. This is to reduce any influence or confounding variables in the results. Btw, for me, the shoe being on such a weird spot makes it less likely it was placed there, at all
Yes, double blind tests. I agree. But even when things are double blind, if the results go against someones biases, the bias person is still going to find a way to twist or cry conpiracy went on. This is what scedoskeptisims is all about.
Yes, we can but let's discuss one thing on the article I linked before we get there. Gimme a bit to go through it
Ok
I thought you might find this funny.
And I thought this would be important for our discussion.
I always try check if there's a conflict of interest. So, I was curious who this Kimberly Clark Sharp social worker is, who found the shoe. She's not just social worker. She, apparently also had NDEs and sells books on this topic - Amazon.co.uk: Kimberly Sharp: Books and she also talks about her experience in numerous YouTube videos. Therefore, she's not neutral nor objective in this matter.
.
This is a bit of a double whammy, because not only does she make money from NDE but she is one herself. This is only from a brief internet search and I bet she makes some money from being some sort of psychic as well
Ill look at the video in a bit here and respond with a seperate post.
But, briefly, just because someone writes books and makes money off them, does not perse mean the message in the books is lies. If that wer the case, then all books ever written would be lies, lol, and we know that is not the case.
Jollybear
Hey
Ok, i seen the video. She tells her own NDE. Anything specific you want me to note of it?
charlie sc
Well-Known Member
They may be the same thing. However, this is not saying it's not authentic. This would be like saying a dream is not authentic, but dreams are authentic dreams. What we want to know is if it actually reflects reality outside this vision.
Yes, it's true that biases are difficult to combat. However, scientists all over the world have an opportunity to study NDE with OBE, not just sceptics of souls/energy/stuff. The only controlled study that did this was the shelf one and the literature review says thus on it, "Data was collected from 15 hospitals in the UK, USA and Austria over a four-year period. A total of 2060 cases were included, of which only 330 patients actually survived to be discharged. Of these, 140 were found eligible for interviews but only 101 could actually be interviewed. Only 55 had memories or awareness of the resuscitation of which only nine had Craffert 4 experiences compatible with NDEs and only two had specific auditory or visual awareness. Only one of them could describe his perceptions during the resuscitation. The non-NDE persons reported themes such as fear, animals and plants, seeing their family and bright lights," and then, "On the other hand, many prospective studies in hospitals with cardiac wards where it is to be expected that people might experience NDEs have been conducted. In the study mentioned at the beginning of this article, between 50 and 100 shelves with images visible only from above the shelves were installed in acute medical wards in each of the 15 hospitals. More than 1 000 target images were displayed in these hospitals but over a period of four years not a single identification took place (see Parnia, et al. 2014:6). The same zero result characterises all other known studies with hidden targets (see Trent-von Haesler and Beauregard 2013:199). The remark by Ring a NDE sympathiser says it all: “but isn’t it true that in all this time, there hasn’t been a single case of a veridical perception reported by an NDEr under controlled conditions? I mean, thirty years later, it’s still a null case” (in Holden 2009:loc 2970). The problem with these studies, as Blackmore pointed out more than a decade ago, is that there “are many claims from case studies that people can really see at a distance during OBEs but the experimental evidence does not substantiate them” (2005:191)."
So I don't know how you can assume OBE with NDE reflect reality when the studies don't suggest it, nor can I be intellectually honest and do the same. Out of 330 patients that survived, only 9 had NDE experiences and no one could describe one image out of the 50-100 images.
This does not describe, to me, a normal part of reality. If OBE with NDE was actually describing reality it wouldn't be so difficult. It would be easy peasy. Everyone with an OBE in NDE would describe these pictures in detail. This is not me saying it doesn't exist, but it lacks evidence.
Ok, I have a question I'd like you to answer. I'll answer it myself first. Do you think it's possible OBE in NDE is the soul leaving the body?
Yes, it's possible
Now you. Do you think it's possible that no soul leaves the body during OBE in NDE?
Please either say yes or no. Please don't go on a tangent and refute what you just said.
Yes, it doesn't mean it was lies or false, etc. It does mean there's a conflict of interest in this case. So, there's that to keep in mind. This is why, for instance, in trials if a juror knows the person they're asked to leave or if the detective knows the person, they may be assigned to another case.
It's to reduce bias, which may be an influencing factor.
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SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
Yes, it is simple. The patient was in the room, so the patient probably knows something about what is in said room.
Why complicate it and make stuff up?
Okay so my grandmother had a stroke that resulted in damage to her brain. Damage that was visible on various different types of brain scans.
Her personality accordingly changed. She also began to have auditory and visual hallucinations, also in accordance with damage to particular brain areas responsible for interpreting auditory and visual input.
But you want me to believe the two things aren't really connected? And you want me to believe my grandmother's original consciousness and original personality were still inside her somewhere? Seriously?