Religious belief and morality

[viole]

I don't know why you have come over here to play when you have so much to answer on the other thread. Like Mockingturtle you seem unable to give any historical backing to your claim that the bible endoses exploitative slaughtrer, see how i addressed both your concerns. Surley between you you can come up with multiple examples of how the scriptures ordered conquest, rape, pillaging, genicide and slavery of peoples for over a 1000 years. Good luck'


Below is an extract from a site that records over the 100 Bible Verses about Rich Exploiting The Poor. I did not post them all but i can f you still wish to try and tell me the bible endorses exploitation of the weak i can post another 80 or so examples.


Proverbs 22:16 ESV / 38 helpful votes
Whoever oppresses the poor to increase his own wealth, or gives to the rich, will only come to poverty.

Matthew 6:24 ESV / 24 helpful votes
“No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money.

Proverbs 14:31 ESV / 24 helpful votes
Whoever oppresses a poor man insults his Maker, but he who is generous to the needy honors him.

Proverbs 22:22-23 ESV / 21 helpful votes
Do not rob the poor, because he is poor, or crush the afflicted at the gate, for the Lordwill plead their cause and rob of life those who rob them.

Proverbs 22:9 ESV / 20 helpful votes
Whoever has a bountiful eye will be blessed, for he shares his bread with the poor.

Proverbs 17:5 ESV / 20 helpful votes
Whoever mocks the poor insults his Maker; he who is glad at calamity will not go unpunished.

James 2:2-6 ESV / 19 helpful votes
For if a man wearing a gold ring and fine clothing comes into your assembly, and a poor man in shabby clothing also comes in, and if you pay attention to the one who wears the fine clothing and say, “You sit here in a good place,” while you say to the poor man, “You stand over there,” or, “Sit down at my feet,” have you not then made distinctions among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts? Listen, my beloved brothers, has not God chosen those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom, which he has promised to those who love him? But you have dishonored the poor man. Are not the rich the ones who oppress you, and the ones who drag you into court?

Proverbs 19:17 ESV / 19 helpful votes
Whoever is generous to the poor lends to the Lord, and he will repay him for his deed.

Ezekiel 16:49 ESV / 17 helpful votes
Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy.

Proverbs 22:16 ESV / 38 helpful votes
Whoever oppresses the poor to increase his own wealth, or gives to the rich, will only come to poverty.

Matthew 6:24 ESV / 24 helpful votes
“No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money.

Proverbs 14:31 ESV / 24 helpful votes
Whoever oppresses a poor man insults his Maker, but he who is generous to the needy honors him.

Proverbs 22:22-23 ESV / 21 helpful votes
Do not rob the poor, because he is poor, or crush the afflicted at the gate, for the Lordwill plead their cause and rob of life those who rob them.

James 2:2-6 ESV / 19 helpful votes
For if a man wearing a gold ring and fine clothing comes into your assembly, and a poor man in shabby clothing also comes in, and if you pay attention to the one who wears the fine clothing and say, “You sit here in a good place,” while you say to the poor man, “You stand over there,” or, “Sit down at my feet,” have you not then made distinctions among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts? Listen, my beloved brothers, has not God chosen those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom, which he has promised to those who love him? But you have dishonored the poor man. Are not the rich the ones who oppress you, and the ones who drag you into court?

Proverbs 19:17 ESV / 19 helpful votes
Whoever is generous to the poor lends to the Lord, and he will repay him for his deed.

Ezekiel 16:49 ESV / 17 helpful votes
Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy.

Proverbs 28:27 ESV / 16 helpful votes
Whoever gives to the poor will not want, but he who hides his eyes will get many a curse.

James 1:27 ESV / 14 helpful votes
Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.

Psalm 14:6 ESV / 14 helpful votes
You would shame the plans of the poor, but the Lord is his refuge.

James 2:5 ESV / 13 helpful votes
Listen, my beloved brothers, has not God chosen those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom, which he has promised to those who love him?

Hebrews 13:5 ESV / 13 helpful votes
Keep your life free from love of money, and be content with what you have, for he has said, “I will never leave you nor forsake you.”

Ezekiel 22:29 ESV / 13 helpful votes
The people of the land have practiced extortion and committed robbery. They have oppressed the poor and needy, and have extorted from the sojourner without justice.
.....................


OK..... I hope this finally puts the Exploitation is not prohibbited by God crap to bed.

Do we need multiple examples? Is that a majority vote? Apart from showing inconsistencies in your book, I am not sure what your point is.

You remind me of that guy who insisted to have proved a hugely long theorem, since all steps were correct, while one or two were not.

But every third grader knows that one incorrect, or contradicting step, is enough to toss the whole thing.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Moz]

Do we need multiple examples? Is that a majority vote? Apart from showing inconsistencies in your book, I am not sure what your point is.

You remind me of that guy who insisted to have proved a hugely long theorem, since all steps were correct, while one or two were not.

But every third grader knows that one incorrect, or contradicting step, is enough to toss the whole thing.

Ciao

- viole

If you do not see the point it is not my problem. I have shown that exploitation of the weak was repeatedly counseled against in the scriptures spanning over a 1000 years. That was the challenge.

 

[viole]

If you do not see the point it is not my problem. I have shown that exploitation of the weak was repeatedly counseled against in the scriptures spanning over a 1000 years. That was the challenge.

Deu. 20:10 “When you draw near to a city to fight against it, offer terms of peace to it. And if its answer to you is peace and it opens to you, then all the people who are found in it shall do forced labor for you and shall serve you.”

Deu.20:12 “but the women and the little ones, the cattle, and everything else in the city, all its spoil, you shall take as booty for yourselves; and you shall enjoy the spoil of your enemies, which the Lord your God has given you”

Numbers 31:17 “Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man by lying with him. But all the young girls who have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves”

If that is not exploitation (the most despicable form of, involving sexual exploitation of little girls whose parents have just been murdered) I am not sure how to call it.

Not so surprising He did not add them to His Commandments. He did not want to undermine His own nature.

CIao

- viole

 

[Moz]

Deu. 20:10 “When you draw near to a city to fight against it, offer terms of peace to it. And if its answer to you is peace and it opens to you, then all the people who are found in it shall do forced labor for you and shall serve you.”

Deu.20:12 “but the women and the little ones, the cattle, and everything else in the city, all its spoil, you shall take as booty for yourselves; and you shall enjoy the spoil of your enemies, which the Lord your God has given you”

Numbers 31:17 “Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man by lying with him. But all the young girls who have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves”

If that is not exploitation (the most despicable form of, involving sexual exploitation of little girls whose parents have just been murdered) I am not sure how to call it.

Not so surprising He did not add them to His Commandments. He did not want to undermine His own nature.

CIao

- viole

I am still waiting for the numerous examples of a 1000 years of Hebrew slaughter that must litter the history of such a violent people led by such a bloodthirsty God.

As has been stated every time you try that ploy. Bronze age warfare was not a pretty thing and the Hebrews played by the rules set by their opponents.

 

[viole]

I am still waiting for the numerous examples of a 1000 years of Hebrew slaughter that must litter the history of such a violent people led by such a bloodthirsty God.

As has been stated every time you try that ploy. Bronze age warfare was not a pretty thing and the Hebrews played by the rules set by their opponents.

And I told you that if my enemy burns my kids at the stake, that does not make me moral by doing the same to his kids, if he loses. Even if it were true that they would have done the same ,as you claimed. That is a very strange definition of morality. I thought your God would add some value to what people like Genghis Khan would do, anyway.

And if someone accepts peace terms, it is exploitation to force them into slavery. Same with sexually exploiting little girls (a godly endorsement of both slavery and pedophilia in one fell swoop) after their parents have been murdered because they lost. What can be more despicable than that?

So, In the same way I would tell a math student that a long list of correct inferences is invalidated by the smallest incorrect one, I am asking you what your point is, apart from showing us that your book is internally incoherent, and does not offer much more than what people like Al Capone would do to his enemies, too. And i am not even sure whether Al would have been so ruthless.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Moz]

And I told you that if my enemy burns my kids at the stake, that does not make me moral by doing the same to his kids, if he loses. Even if it were true that they would have done the same ,as you claimed. That is a very strange definition of morality. I thought your God would add some value to what people like Genghis Khan would do, anyway.

And if someone accepts peace terms, it is exploitation to force them into slavery. Same with sexually exploiting little girls (a godly endorsement of both slavery and pedophilia in one fell swoop) after their parents have been murdered because they lost. What can be more despicable than that?

So, In the same way I would tell a math student that a long list of correct inferences is invalidated by the smallest incorrect one, I am asking you what your point is, apart from showing us that your book is internally incoherent, and does not offer much more than what people like Al Capone would do to his enemies, too. And i am not even sure whether Al would have been so ruthless.

Ciao

- viole

Even if it were true that they would have done the same ,as you claimed.
Even if it were true? So.... what, now you doubt that "slaughter or enslavement" was the societal norm of the times. I give up.
................................

 

[viole]

Even if it were true that they would have done the same ,as you claimed.
Even if it were true? So.... what, now you doubt that "slaughter or enslavement" was the societal norm of the times. I give up.
................................

How is that relevant?

Is “do as the societal norm” part of godly standard? You forget that the subject here is God morality, not the morality of those bronze age tribes who made Him up. Since you believe they did not make Him up, probably, then I would expect a bit more from an alleged source of objective morality than commands saying “do as the others, no matter how nasty”.

Again, you imply all the time that what God commands is not worse than the societal norm at a certain time. Not worse than Stalin, not worse than bronze age people. And not much better either, I am afraid. Are you sure those were really commands from God?

If yes, Is that what objective morality means? Do as the societal norm?
Really?

Cool, does God accept gay marriage now? Looks like, considering what Swiss evangelicals decided yesterday.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Valjean]

How is that relevant?

Is “do as the societal norm” part of godly standard? You forget that the subject here is God morality, not the morality of those bronze age tribes who made Him up. Since you believe they did not make Him up, probably, then I would expect a bit more from an alleged source of objective morality than commands saying “do as the others, no matter how nasty”.

Again, you imply all the time that what God commands is not worse than the societal norm at a certain time. Not worse than Stalin, not worse than bronze age people. And not much better either, I am afraid. Are you sure those were really commands from God?

If yes, Is that what objective morality means? Do as the societal norm?
Really?

Cool, does God accept gay marriage now? Looks like, considering what Swiss evangelicals decided yesterday.

Ciao

- viole

Deontological drivel.
This isn't a religious question, any more than heliocentrism, medicine or any of the other disciplines where the church once considered itself arbiter ne plus ultra.
Look to psychology, sociology, anthropology and neurology for real answers and analysis.

 

[tayla]

"believing in an omniscient creator doesn't contain any inherent moral value -- you still have to decide whether to obey His commands."

Add to this the fact that there are many interpretations of specifically what the commands even are.

Basing morality on such gibberish is irrational.

 

[Spartan]

Refuse to kill.

Butcher the Isis terrorists. It's ok with God to be an agent of wrath against the evildoer (Romans 13).

 

[Spirit of Light]

Butcher the Isis terrorists. It's ok with God to be an agent of wrath against the evildoer (Romans 13).

If you feel it's ok, that is on you.
Killing to me is immoral no matter who does it. So no I will not take part in or support any form of killing.

 

[Spartan]

If you feel it's ok, that is on you.
Killing to me is immoral no matter who does it. So no I will not take part in or support any form of killing.

 

[Spirit of Light]

No, Actually I am not protected by men I refuse to take help from military or other bullies with weapons.

 

[Spartan]

No, Actually I am not protected by men I refuse to take help from military or other bullies with weapons.

You must not live in America then. Or a free country.

 

[Spirit of Light]

You must not live in America then. Or a free country.

Norway (North Europe) And yes it is a free county. But I don't hold the feeling of being Norwegian, To me, the earth is the home to me, no matter where I go I will be home. But at the moment I do not seek to go to countries who are in a war, or who invade other countries from assumptions made by sick leaders

 

[Spartan]

Norway (North Europe) And yes it is a free county. But I don't hold the feeling of being Norwegian, To me, the earth is the home to me, no matter where I go I will be home. But at the moment I do not seek to go to countries who are in a war, or who invade other countries from assumptions made by sick leaders

Sorry to burst your bubble but you are protected by the armed forces of Norway.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Sorry to burst your bubble but you are protected by the armed forces of Norway.

LOL, what they do in the near area of me does not concern me. I have never been in the military, and will not use weapons and certainly will not have other people kill for me or kill to "protect" me.
I have no enemies and see no reason to hate other human beings

 

[Spartan]

LOL, what they do in the near area of me does not concern me. I have never been in the military, and will not use weapons and certainly will not have other people kill for me or kill to "protect" me.
I have no enemies and see no reason to hate other human beings

And what are you going to do when an invading army or a gang of criminals breaks into your house to rape and murder your family? You going to sit by and doodle your thumbs?

 

[Spirit of Light]

And what are you going to do when an invading army or a gang of criminals breaks into your house to rape and murder your family? You going to sit by and doodle your thumbs?

Ah, you are one of the guys who go directly to the extreme
I was asked by the military about this when I was supposed to enroll, and my answer then and still is. I will do anything in my power to stop them, except not to use weapons or kill.
If I die in protecting my fianceè so be it, but it is very little chance something like this happens where I live. far from gangs and evil people.

 

[Spartan]

Ah, you are one of the guys who go directly to the extreme
I was asked by the military about this when I was supposed to enroll, and my answer then and still is. I will do anything in my power to stop them, except not to use weapons or kill.
If I die in protecting my fianceè so be it, but it is very little chance something like this happens where I live. far from gangs and evil people.

If they have knives or guns your fight will be very short lived. Anyway, good luck with that.