How do you know it is actually hot?
Wouldn't be too hard to create a stove that gives the appearance of being on.
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Religious doubt
- Thread starter TheGunShoj
- Start date
How do you know it is actually hot?
Wouldn't be too hard to create a stove that gives the appearance of being on.
TheGunShoj
Active Member
He didn't say if he stuck his hand on a stove that appeared to be hot, he said a hot stove. we're past the point where he has determined it's hot.
Given enough negative feedback from others about an experience can cause anyone to begin to doubt the reality of it.
People believe they was a ghost. If a dozen people start saying it was just their imagination they'll probably start doubting. The disbelief of others cause the doubt. Cause people to begin to question an experience they were otherwise certain of.
Sure, he "imagined" an scenario of certainty and came to a conclusion of certainty.
If you control everything what's to be uncertain about. In real life we don't get to control everything. That's were uncertainty comes in.
This didn't really seem all that far fetched as it was explained to me as a child that the earth orbits the sun. The global flood however sounded far-fetched even to my child mind.
They had a fairly accurate geocentric model of the universe. Unfortunately is was so complex it caused more inaccuracy.
The current model is much simpler so provides more accuracy.
The geocentric model would probably work well enough to get to the moon but trying to calculate a flight to Saturn would be a nightmare.
Doubt should be normal. Still some have a hard time accepting even a tiny bit of it.
Ah, that clarifies somewhat. In that sense, I sympathize with your confusion as to how a person with direct experience of their gods could then doubt their reality.
I think that it's a good idea to take a look at what the person believes about their god to put this in context.
I can better understand, for example, exhibiting skepticism of gods that are primarily otherworldly, like the Christian god. Because there is no tangible or physical form they are relating with, they can easily reinterpret their experiences to be something other than the Christian god. That voice, they think, could have been some different otherworldly entity or even a hallucination. They won't have materialistic proof, and for some, that derails their enjoyment of the experience.
When it comes to developing relations with otherworldly entities, whether you call them gods or something else, one has to trust in oneself. Push comes to shove, I have no idea if my experiences with otherworldly entities are "actually" that entity, but I also realize that the supposed validity is irrelevant with respect to the meaningfulness I derive from it. Instead I ask "what is the story I want to tell" and go with that. It's not about boring facts and figures, it's spinning a tapestry of meaning.
On the other side of god-concepts, I definitely have trouble understanding why someone would doubt the reality of immanent or this-worldly divinities. Most of the gods I honor fall into this category, and even by the constrained ontological perspective most in my culture take, nobody would doubt that the sun exists, that trees exist, and that storms exist. I can see doubting whether or not one wants to stick the "god" label on them, but the daily experiencing of reality and doubting that one is actually existing is... a little extreme to me.
TheGunShoj
Active Member
I don't have a problem with doubt if that's what you're implying. I have doubts about all kinds of things all the time. My problem is when you claim to know something for certain and then turn around and have doubts about it. If I never saw or heard from my best friend ever again, I wouldn't doubt that they ever existed and that they were a figment of my imagination all along because I know they exist.
I realize the analogy seems silly because I have empirical evidence that people exist but most religious folk that I have spoken to believe they can say the same about God. I don't understand how they can claim to know God exists based on a position of faith but that's a discussion for another thread but the point is, people claim this.
Last edited:
TheGunShoj
Active Member
It's not hard to imagine a scenario where someone is certain a stove is hot. If I walk up to my stove and the burner is black and I turn it onto high, walk away for five minutes and come back to see that it's red hot. I'm pretty sure it's safe to assume that it's hot. I can also put my hand near it and feel the heat. Why do you have such a problem with a simple analogy? You're reading too much into it.
Last edited:
OIC... Conviction. Faith and conviction seem to go hand in hand. Before is was taboo to doubt. Maybe there is still some of that.
For the Pentecostal certainty come in the form of speaking in tongues.
I guess I leave you to it then. Most of the religious folks I talk to though at least say they feel doubt is reasonable.
I guess I deal in a technical environment where certainty is never certain until after the fact. Everything has to be validated and verified by more then one person. There's lots of errors, usually human. Still some unknown environmental change will mess with the results.
And I mess with people sometimes so they don't get their predicted results. One can't control everything especially other people.
"Everything that might go wrong, will go wrong" is a rule of thumb in my life.
I suppose a lot of experience at predicting what might go wrong led me to embrace uncertainty and even look forward to it.
Ouroboros
Coincidentia oppositorum
I had several phases of doubt during my Christian period. The last one never ended.
Basically, it was exactly what you're saying there. The only God that can be the true God would have to be obvious and not cause doubt. A true God must be undeniable, for anyone, anywhere, any time. If you have to find God by looking under rocks and using some obscure philosophical syllogisms, then it can't be God, Creator of All Creation. Creation would have to speak (like Paul says) about this God. Which it does. Creation is the Creator. 
You're asking if they really believe what they are saying. That can be asked of many. Some do, some are hypocrites and so forth.
There is great value in being uncertain. It means you can be open to learn something new.
I think there are those who have powerful experiences (NDE, etc.) that never doubt again.
There are some that have real but more subtle experiences and they can doubt themselves at times.
HeatherAnn
Active Member
When we're younger, we think we KNOW everything.
When we realize that's not the case, a mix of doubt and faith helps us progress in healthier ways.
Last edited:
TheGunShoj
Active Member
I don't see how that follows.
Amechania
Daimona of the Helpless
It seems to me that faith without doubt isn't real. It's more of a delusion. A blind acceptance predicated on fear. To doubt but persevere in hope is true faith, I would think. If someone tells me they love me I have to take it on faith. I suppose I could put them to the test but all that reveals is how little I love them.
Last edited: