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Religious Freedom Bill passed in Missisippi.

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
People already have the freedom to be jerks unless there is some anti-bullying law I am unaware of. Is it too much to ask that they not give a license to be jerks allowing the avoidance of the repercussions of living in a free society that frowns upon it? This is for anyone who cares to answer.

And to top it they want to throw in god we trust in their state seal to rub it in. They know exactly what they are doing.

The problem is you are confusing "people I disagree with" and "jerks". I think they're jerks too, but I think I'm a bigger jerk if I tell them - because I disagree with them - that they are not allowed to choose who to allow in an establishment they own. It is their property, their income, who are you to say what a person can or cannot do with their own property?

It's not bullying either. They are not allowed to harass anyone, harm anyone, steal from anyone - they are allowed to refuse to allow someone onto their property who they feel is a " bad person". I don't know about Mississippi but where I am you already have the right to chose who can come onto your property, when, and under what circumstances. The difference this law would make is that business owners could openly voice their opinions without worrying about legal action - aka the first amendment.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
What's important is that there are Sikhs who do consider their turban to be of obligatory religious importance.
If there are such Sikhs, I haven't met them. As I touched on earlier, the "5 Ks", or the obligations of a baptized Sikh, include long hair, not wearing a turban:

BBC - Religions - Sikhism: The Five Ks

I think what's actually important here is that asking an observant Sikh to remove his turban demonstrates cultural insensitivity and is an affront to his dignity.

Interestingly, though, our hypothetical Sikh friend has another religious obligation that the courtroom staff would probably care quite a bit about: the kirpan. Baptized Sikh men are obliged to carry a dagger or sword.

Is religious obligation enough reason to allow someone to bring a weapon into a courtroom?

My opinion on this bill is neutral at this juncture. I'm still attempting to process and understand it and to wrap my brain around certain inferences.

It's here, in the event that you haven't read it.
Yes, I read it.

I find this section interesting:



And subsection (b) reads:



This reads to me as a reiteration of what the government shouldn't be doing anyway in violation of First Amendment rights.

In this context, do you still disagree with the approach of the bill?
I interpret it differently: I don't think this is just a matter of protecting First Amendment rights; I think it sets up a situation where religious concerns will be the overriding factor on decisions that affect a wide spectrum of concerns.

In particular, I worry that this will give a "get out of jail free card" to churches and religious individuals on all sorts of issues. Will it be considered a "substantial burden on the exercise of religion" to require a church to get a retrofit to allow access for persons with disabilities? Could someone argue that a county should widen Road A instead of Road B because the congestion on Road A (his route to church) amounts to a "substantial burden" on his exercise of religion?

I think that religious issues are just one of many concerns, and it's government's job to try to strike the most appropriate balance between all of them. AFAICT, this law effectively says "screw that balance in favour of religions, as long as the effects on everything else aren't completely unacceptable."

Agreed. Though, I think it's important to consider and understand that for some, such removal would be more than a mere inconvenience.
Of course. It's offensive and unnecessary on several levels. I just think that any religious concerns are minor compared to the more important factors.

How would you justify this to the man who views his turban as a religious requirement? You're assigning it meaning without regard to the person who is wearing it. Or at least, this is how this reads to me.
See... this is part of why I disagree with religious exemptions to the law, because they inevitably end up with the government judging what is and isn't "legitimate" religious expression.

There was a case here in Ontario a few years ago. In one of our government-run Catholic schools (which are a whole kettle of fish that I probably shouldn't get into because it'll just get me riled), a lesbian student at one of these Catholic schools wanted to bring her girlfriend to the prom. The school refused, and she brought a case to the Ontario Human Rights Tribunal, where the school board argued that it would violate Catholic doctrine to allow a student to bring their same-sex boyfriend/girlfriend to an official school function. However, the Tribunal decided that Catholic doctrine doesn't actually prohibit a lesbian student bringing her girlfriend to the prom, and ordered the school to let the girlfriend come.

Do I want the courts (and quasi-judicial bodies like human rights tribunals) ruling on the legitimacy of other people's religions? Not at all... but when the law allows for special treatment on the basis of religion, it's inevitable.

I don't completely disagree with you. But, as I've shared with you before, I care about the rights of BOTH the religious business owner and the individual who may pose conflict or hardship to their beliefs. I am of the personal belief that kindness, inclusivity and accommodation is the best way to do business, whilst keeping a good business mind on your shoulders.

But, any way we slice it, we're weighing the value of one person's rights to another and choosing a side. :shrug:
Of course. But when those rights are in conflict, it's impossible not to choose a side.

Huge parts of our lives, communities, and societies are in the hands of private businesses. Telling those private businesses that they're free to discriminate as they see fit is effectively the same as telling the people being discriminated against that they don't have a right to a community or a society.

I think that often, maximizing liberty is a matter of putting restrictions in place that limit the freedom of people to limit the freedom of others.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
Interestingly, though, our hypothetical Sikh friend has another religious obligation that the courtroom staff would probably care quite a bit about: the kirpan. Baptized Sikh men are obliged to carry a dagger or sword.

Is religious obligation enough reason to allow someone to bring a weapon into a courtroom?

I've read that it can be okay for them to carry the dagger in sensitive places like schools and planes if the dagger is glued to the scabbard and can't be taken out.
 

Drolefille

PolyPanGeekGirl
I've read that it can be okay for them to carry the dagger in sensitive places like schools and planes if the dagger is glued to the scabbard and can't be taken out.

Also a small dagger shaped necklace is sometimes acceptable, this probably varies from Sikh to Sikh. (I kind of wanted to type Sikh sect a lot...)
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
The problem is you are confusing "people I disagree with" and "jerks". I think they're jerks too, but I think I'm a bigger jerk if I tell them - because I disagree with them - that they are not allowed to choose who to allow in an establishment they own. It is their property, their income, who are you to say what a person can or cannot do with their own property?

It's not bullying either. They are not allowed to harass anyone, harm anyone, steal from anyone - they are allowed to refuse to allow someone onto their property who they feel is a " bad person". I don't know about Mississippi but where I am you already have the right to chose who can come onto your property, when, and under what circumstances. The difference this law would make is that business owners could openly voice their opinions without worrying about legal action - aka the first amendment.
I hear you so when a person can already do it why exempt religious from suit? A suit is supposed to determine a fault of some sort. Why make a bill that mimics the first amendment while throwing in religion which is against separation of church and state. And you dont find it peculiar that they also want to throw in god we trust on their state seal? Its making a statement, religious are a protected class.
 

dawny0826

Mother Heathen
If there are such Sikhs, I haven't met them. As I touched on earlier, the "5 Ks", or the obligations of a baptized Sikh, include long hair, not wearing a turban:

BBC - Religions - Sikhism: The Five Ks

I think what's actually important here is that asking an observant Sikh to remove his turban demonstrates cultural insensitivity and is an affront to his dignity.

Interestingly, though, our hypothetical Sikh friend has another religious obligation that the courtroom staff would probably care quite a bit about: the kirpan. Baptized Sikh men are obliged to carry a dagger or sword.

Is religious obligation enough reason to allow someone to bring a weapon into a courtroom?

Yes, I read it.

I interpret it differently: I don't think this is just a matter of protecting First Amendment rights; I think it sets up a situation where religious concerns will be the overriding factor on decisions that affect a wide spectrum of concerns.

In particular, I worry that this will give a "get out of jail free card" to churches and religious individuals on all sorts of issues. Will it be considered a "substantial burden on the exercise of religion" to require a church to get a retrofit to allow access for persons with disabilities? Could someone argue that a county should widen Road A instead of Road B because the congestion on Road A (his route to church) amounts to a "substantial burden" on his exercise of religion?

I think that religious issues are just one of many concerns, and it's government's job to try to strike the most appropriate balance between all of them. AFAICT, this law effectively says "screw that balance in favour of religions, as long as the effects on everything else aren't completely unacceptable."

Of course. It's offensive and unnecessary on several levels. I just think that any religious concerns are minor compared to the more important factors.

See... this is part of why I disagree with religious exemptions to the law, because they inevitably end up with the government judging what is and isn't "legitimate" religious expression.

There was a case here in Ontario a few years ago. In one of our government-run Catholic schools (which are a whole kettle of fish that I probably shouldn't get into because it'll just get me riled), a lesbian student at one of these Catholic schools wanted to bring her girlfriend to the prom. The school refused, and she brought a case to the Ontario Human Rights Tribunal, where the school board argued that it would violate Catholic doctrine to allow a student to bring their same-sex boyfriend/girlfriend to an official school function. However, the Tribunal decided that Catholic doctrine doesn't actually prohibit a lesbian student bringing her girlfriend to the prom, and ordered the school to let the girlfriend come.

Do I want the courts (and quasi-judicial bodies like human rights tribunals) ruling on the legitimacy of other people's religions? Not at all... but when the law allows for special treatment on the basis of religion, it's inevitable.

Of course. But when those rights are in conflict, it's impossible not to choose a side.

Huge parts of our lives, communities, and societies are in the hands of private businesses. Telling those private businesses that they're free to discriminate as they see fit is effectively the same as telling the people being discriminated against that they don't have a right to a community or a society.

I think that often, maximizing liberty is a matter of putting restrictions in place that limit the freedom of people to limit the freedom of others.

I need to mull a bit before responding.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I've read that it can be okay for them to carry the dagger in sensitive places like schools and planes if the dagger is glued to the scabbard and can't be taken out.
AFAIK, whether that's considered an acceptable compromise depends on the individual Sikh in question. Some see the kirpan as merely a reminder that they should protect the defenseless; others consider the kirpan to be a literal weapon ready to be used to defend people in a real, literal way.
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
I hear you so when a person can already do it why exempt religious from suit? A suit is supposed to determine a fault of some sort. Why make a bill that mimics the first amendment while throwing in religion which is against separation of church and state. And you dont find it peculiar that they also want to throw in god we trust on their state seal? Its making a statement, religious are a protected class.

Separation of church and state doesn't imply the government not protecting religious freedom, simply not playing favorites. Also the state seal thing is old news, I'm against it, but I don't remember seeing that anywhere on the bill.
 

Mycroft

Ministry of Serendipity
Meanwhile_5a4d9e_2841072.jpg
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
Separation of church and state doesn't imply the government not protecting religious freedom, simply not playing favorites. Also the state seal thing is old news, I'm against it, but I don't remember seeing that anywhere on the bill.

They are picking favorites by excluding non-religious opinion as valid enough and a judge has to pick legitimate religious reasoning. They the state seal changed too, shows their true motives. Did they take it out?
SB2681 (As Passed the Senate) - 2014 Regular Session
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
They are picking favorites by excluding non-religious opinion as valid enough and a judge has to pick legitimate religious reasoning. They the state seal changed too, shows their true motives. Did they take it out?
SB2681 (As Passed the Senate) - 2014 Regular Session

That's true, the bill shouldn't specify religious belief, it should just be about personal values, hell even personal preference. But while there's no doubt a bunch of bigots created the bill it still is protecting all religions. You don't need the seal to realize the spirit of the bill is black as night, but something like that wouldn't pass.

I'm still baffled as to how Christians can deny someone service due to their judgment of them when that's absolutely anti-christian.
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
I think the problem with this debate is there are far too many variables that all deserve their own debate.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
I'm still baffled as to how Christians can deny someone service due to their judgment of them when that's absolutely anti-christian.
Its a game these states are playing trying to pass religious agendas, isnt the first and wont be the last. It takes some time for objections to go to the highest court.

That really gets me too. A product of paulism vs jesuism. Weird thing is that isnt even possible without someone being obvious at the time otherwise there is no knowledge of what sins someone partakes in. They are all serving serial killers and rapists for all we know.
 

Drolefille

PolyPanGeekGirl
Its a game these states are playing trying to pass religious agendas, isnt the first and wont be the last. It takes some time for objections to go to the highest court.

That really gets me too. A product of paulism vs jesuism. Weird thing is that isnt even possible without someone being obvious at the time otherwise there is no knowledge of what sins someone partakes in. They are all serving serial killers and rapists for all we know.

That's what gets me. It's always "same sex marriage" that's the problem and NEVER EVER second marriages. No one refuses to make cake for a divorcee. Just the gay guys. Never for the premarital sex havers, just the lesbians.
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
That's what gets me. It's always "same sex marriage" that's the problem and NEVER EVER second marriages. No one refuses to make cake for a divorcee. Just the gay guys. Never for the premarital sex havers, just the lesbians.

Homosexuals are the "plague" archetype (or whatever you'd want to call it) of our time. All this just proves that. I mean people even thought you could only catch AIDS if gay and that it could be spread easily, not only through blood. It's sad, but once it's over there will just be another plague archetype.
 

nazz

Doubting Thomas
That's what gets me. It's always "same sex marriage" that's the problem and NEVER EVER second marriages. No one refuses to make cake for a divorcee. Just the gay guys. Never for the premarital sex havers, just the lesbians.

Yes, it is definitely inconsistent
 

Mycroft

Ministry of Serendipity
Since Christians are so caught up on the biblical aspect of this, let's look at something else Biblical.

Now. Let's be clear. Either the Bible is correct, or it is not correct. It's an all-in-all-out kind of deal. The Bible is not trailmix, you can't pick the bits you like and discard the rest.

So, that being said. Let's look at what else the Bible has to say in regards to marriage:
"A marriage shall be considered valid only if the wife is a virgin. If the wife is not a virgin, she shall be executed" Deuteronomy 22:13-21.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
Since Christians are so caught up on the biblical aspect of this, let's look at something else Biblical.

Now. Let's be clear. Either the Bible is correct, or it is not correct. It's an all-in-all-out kind of deal. The Bible is not trailmix, you can't pick the bits you like and discard the rest.

So, that being said. Let's look at what else the Bible has to say in regards to marriage:
"A marriage shall be considered valid only if the wife is a virgin. If the wife is not a virgin, she shall be executed" Deuteronomy 22:13-21.

Cant we just take deutoronomy out, its disturbing. Thats why jefferson cut out like ninety percent of the bible.

Deuteronomy 22:
28*“If a man finds a young woman*who is*a virgin, who is not betrothed, and he seizes her and lies with her, and they are found out,*29*then the man who lay with her shall give to the young woman’s father*fifty*shekels*of silver, and she shall be his wife*because he has humbled her; he shall not be permitted to divorce her all his days.
 
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