(Religious Freedom) Now a crime in VA to attend services?

[McBell]

Peaceable assembly refers to assembly not conducted with the intent to, for example, cause riots, revolts, or kill people. A lynch mob, for example. Suppose we replace the word Coronavirus with "cold". Would you say that it is reasonable to forbid all worship due to a cold? No, you might tell people to cover their noses and wash their hands, but to completely forbid church worship would be seen as unreasonable. At least, not if there are only 11 people. And those people are not meeting to intentionally spread a disease, they are meeting to worship and pray at a time when people need to feel hope. You might strongly recommend people stay home for a gathering of over 500, correct? Especially if those people were being forced to come?

People are in fact allowed to risk their own lives. If it were not so, all alcohol would be banned as it kills an average of 6 people a day (for most of you here, who do not understand orders of magnitude, this is 2190 people a year just in US, not including those who kill themselves in drunk driving accidents (which jumps to 30 people a day, or 10,950 people a year)). Nor are all cars banned, despite accidents for all sorts of reasons. Life is risky. The difference is that nobody is demanding they come. Not even God, they have freedom to come (or not). Sabbath is a gift, it is up to the believer. Mark 2:25-28

By contrast, all members of Congress (roughly 100 Senate, roughly 435 House making them at least ten times the crowd of an average church, and nearly 50 times that of this theoretical 11 person church) are still meeting, and are probably being asked to. Nobody gave them a choice at all, and since they come from every state in the Union, could therefore spread infection far more readily than the average population, especially those living in small towns.

So which of these groups do you think shouldn't be meeting? The church? Or the government?

seems to me you are complaining simply to be complaining.

As if the cold is any sort of comparison to Covid-19.
That you wold think so is a huge reason why the government has to crack down so hard over it.
To many idiots convinced they have every right to infect the whole world so long as they get their way.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

The Constitution guarantees the right to a peaceable assembly. Separation of church and state ALSO means the state cannot compel the church's practices.

The question is where the line is drawn regarding "the general welfare" (health).

It's not quite so clear. The Supreme Court has previously overridden individual rights based on specific health situations impacting on more than the individual.

Where laws pass the 'strict scrutiny' test, I don't think they could be successfully challenged. Opinionative, obviously.

 

[Twilight Hue]

In many states, gathering has been restricted to under 50 ppl because of that virus. However, two news articles have made it to the surface.
The first is that in California, they are apparently turning off power and running water to people who don't close their businesses. What about people whose business is their home? You know, people who run a restaurant and live upstairs?
The second is more relevant to religious freedom. You see, in Virginia, that number got reduced down to about 10 people. Many other states also did this, so fair enough. But many other states like Michigan and Texas admitted that this doesn't apply to religious establishments. This ought to be correct. We have a little thing called separation of church and state, freedom of religion, and freedom of assembly. This ought to be unconstitutional even if it did prevent disease. Nahhhh, let's walk all over those rights! In Virginia, if 11 people show up to church, all of them are felons and can expect to be jailed or fined $2500!

Virginia governor makes attending church a criminal offense



He says this, but Northam has repeatedly pushed back deadlines, and I imagine he'd like it if churches closed indefinitely. As it stands, many will due to lack of funds. Anyone thinking atheism isn't a religion only has to look at how no such restrictions are made to the ABC store (which pays into his salary, and thus is an "essential business") but seems hellbent to get rid of churches. If that doesn't look like a rival religion, I dunno what does. Also, turns out it's racist. The ones most likely staying open are black Baptist churches (Episcopal and Methodists have all closed). Blackface Northam strikes again!

Yes, maybe some people do need to exercise precaution. But we cannot be allowed to overturn the Bill of Rights (in US) or other civil rights in other countries. Once you lose such freedoms, there is precedent for it, and you have trouble getting them back. We do have the right to assemble. And we do have right to religion. Probably there is an expectation that people will do it using social media, but not everyone is tech savvy.

In the mean time, I'll leave you this video. It's very disturbing, as it shows the unsettling event of the major church handing down edicts to backwoods churches. Will monastic groups be forced to split apart when they have no contact with the outside world and are unlikely to get sick?

Well just remember it's the People's Republic of California much like the People's Republic of New York.

They are not governors in those States. They're called Chairman.

Personally I don't think they should close churches down. But I do think there needs to be limited restrictions wereas at church could do rotational services by invite with a limit that is acceptable to help stem the curve of the spread of the virus.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The thing is, even in the interest of containing disease, this is not the same thing as polygamy. Polygamy asks to change a law already in effect (no polygamy), and the state is refusing to make exceptions.

It's exactly the same because you want a change in the law to have a special exemption that others do not get. I am not surprised Christian selfishness and going on about me. You probably haven't even considered social responsibility in your decisions, have you?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Well just remember it's the People's Republic of California much like the People's Republic of New York.

They are not governors in those States. They're called Chairman.

Personally I don't think they should close churches down. But I do think there needs to be limited restrictions wereas at church could do rotational services by invite with a limit that is acceptable to help stem the curve of the spread of the virus.

Or they can do their part like the rest of us. Its straight up bull**** that religion gets so many exemptions to the law amd put other people at risk. From child abuse, outright scams, and enabling an oberstressed medical system, religion lets you get away with it all.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Or they can do their part like the rest of us. Its straight up bull**** that religion gets so many exemptions to the law amd put other people at risk. From child abuse, outright scams, and enabling an oberstressed medical system, religion lets you get away with it all.

Well I'm not a huge fan of assembled religion in general.

Personally I think religion should be self-sufficient and not dependent on things like nonprofit status and the like so I think we can see things eye-to-eye pretty well there.

As for the latter, I think what has been put on the spot light through religious institutions are pretty much the same through any fraternal type associations where do you get things like abuse and racketeering within its ranks.

I do agree with you that we should all be collectively responsible in terms of abiding by the directives made by health experts and professionals. Even though I personally don't have any regard for my own personal safety on things I still do what I can to help curve the spread of the virus. I wash my hands maintain social distancing whenever possible and I will definitely see a doctor if I have signs where I'm having trouble breathing and the like that is conducent of Coronavirus infection.

One thing for certain, the religious needs to pull its own weight and do its part regardless of belief and devotion by adapting to surrounding circumstances.

 

[Father Heathen]

Religious freedom doesn't grant you the right to pose a serious risk to others. The second amendment doesn't make it okay to go around waving a gun in people's faces, does it?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Religious freedom doesn't grant you the right to pose a serious risk to others.

In some cases, yes it does, such as when it allows a parent to forego medical treatment for an ill child.

 

[InChrist]

It's that whole "and OTHERS" part that gets in the way for many who think only of what it means to them personally. "And others" does not compute to narcissists. "Why can't I do what I want to, whenever I want to anymore? It's not fair!! Who do I sue? What do you mean others might get sick and die? People die all the time! It's not fair to me!"

Good point and well said.
Sadly it seems people generally are self-centered and narcissistic in a variety of circumstances. Your words could aptly apply to those who think it’s okay to kill OTHERS by abortion.

 

[dianaiad]

You do know this equally applies to all, don't you? Religion was no target when this happened. This wasn't done to pick on religion, but Christians--per their normal behavior--eagerly scream they are being repressed and made into martyrs by the big, evil, scary, baby eating secular establishment.

(snort)

Not so much....and religion was certainly 'a target' when 'everything happened.' For crying out loud, HOW many threads and anti-theists have been pounding the mantra of 'churches need their tax exemptions removed' and 'the world would be better off without religion' have been written before January 2020? Get a grip.

and I, for one, am not talking about "Christians' per se. Just theists in general. some things must be held inviolate...and religion is one of them. However, as I said, while there must not be a punishment for attending church, or for a church holding meetings of more than ten or so, it doesn't mean that those who attend such meetings unlawfully have to get off consequence free.

(shrug) My idea of 'resetting' the quarantine for everybody who attends such meetings ( of more than ten) is one idea...might even not be the best one, but it is one....IF the same consequence is visited upon those who stand in incredibly crowded lines waiting to buy toilet paper. But no...y'all don't think that people who meet in parks or go to stores or whatever should have problems when THEY congregate.....just those who go to church.

Now tell me that there isn't more than a wee bit of hypocrisy going on here?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Now tell me that there isn't more than a wee bit of hypocrisy going on here?

Yes. Christians wanting to put their own selfish desires before the well-being and safety of their neighbor, and tons of attempts to dodge this fact to look innocent, with your own defense being that people expect you render into Ceasar that which is Ceasar's.

 

[McBell]

... just those who go to church.

AND those who would go to the Hair Salon
AND Nail Salons
AND Tattoo Studios
AND Tanning Salons
AND Dine In Restaurants (including fast food)
AND Court Houses
AND Town Halls
AND Departments (Bureaus) Of Transportation
AND Doctor Offices
AND Prisons
AND Jails
AND Non-Essential Jobs

Now tell me that there isn't more than a wee bit of hypocrisy going on here?

Since it is not only churches...

But by all means, please continue to tell those of us here in the USA how it is just the churches being singled out...

 

[BilliardsBall]

It's not quite so clear. The Supreme Court has previously overridden individual rights based on specific health situations impacting on more than the individual.

Where laws pass the 'strict scrutiny' test, I don't think they could be successfully challenged. Opinionative, obviously.

I understand, but as an originalist, I see a real problem. Where rubber meets the road is the length of the shut down orders and how flat the Corona curve becomes in the USA.

Thank you.

 

[McBell]

AND those who would go to the Hair Salon
AND Nail Salons
AND Tattoo Studios
AND Tanning Salons
AND Dine In Restaurants (including fast food)
AND Court Houses
AND Town Halls
AND Departments (Bureaus) Of Transportation
AND Doctor Offices
AND Prisons
AND Jails
AND Non-Essential Jobs


Since it is not only churches...

But by all means, please continue to tell those of us here in the USA how it is just the churches being singled out...

AND Theaters
AND Museums
AND Gyms
AND Workout Centers
AND Casinos
AND Racetracks
AND Sports Venues
AND Concerts
AND Bowling Alleys
AND Shopping Malls
AND Bars
AND Night Clubs
AND Lodges (Moose, Elk, Eagle, Etc.)
AND Schools (K-12)
AND Libraries
AND ...

 

[Jainarayan]

Have you seen footage of the hospitals in Italy? Only in America would someone be more concerned about constitutional rights rather than the lives of their children, parents, extended family and friends.

That's an appeal to emotion, a logical fallacy. I never said I'm not concerned about people's lives. Don't strawman, that's another logical fallacy that immediately loses the argument for you.

This is not Italy. Conditions are completely different. Italians are probably more reluctant to isolate themselves than Americans. Italians can't keep their hands to themselves... I know, I'm Italian and Sicilian. Extended families in close proximity are more common in Italy than in the US. Picture a boardwalk at the Jersey Shore or in California. That's many towns in Italy after dinner... the passegiata, the evening walk and get together in town to have un po' di caffè e pasticcino, coffee and pastry.

Do they deserve it? Of course not, but the comparisons between Italy and the US are invalid. If we want to compare, why does India, with a population of over 1.3 billion, some living in abject poverty, and extended families, have roughly 600(+/-) cases? Should we compare India and the US? What does India know that the US doesn't? Only recently PM Modi ordered a lockdown. Comparing the US to any other country is an invalid meme being latched onto and parroted.

The US economy is already showing signs of trouble. People have already lost jobs they'll probably never get back, not if businesses shut down and never re-open. Are you going to pay their bills, rent or mortgage or buy their food? Are you going to give them a place to live? No, I didn't think so.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. Amendment IV.

What violates the 4th Amendment?
An arrest is found to violate the Fourth Amendment because it was not supported by probable cause or a valid warrant. Any evidence obtained through that unlawful arrest, such as a confession, will be kept out of the case.4th Amendment Search and Seizure Protections - FindLaw

Gov. Murphy's executive order orders the police to break up gatherings in a private home of more than 10 people. So yeah, I'm concerned about our Constitutional rights.

 

[Windwalker]

Good point and well said.
Sadly it seems people generally are self-centered and narcissistic in a variety of circumstances.

Egocentrism is natural and normal in young children. It's part of normal healthy ego development which starts with them defining who they are as a person apart from others, and then it eventually expands to include others as they grow and mature. If allowed to continue to grow, it will expand in ever-wider circles, to where we see everyone in the whole world, regardless of race, creed, religion, culture, age, gender, etc., as extensions of our own self as Jesus taught us, "To love your neighbor as yourself".

Many people get stuck at early developmental stages and spend their entire adult lives at the ego developmental stages of either adocences, or preadolescence. Being an adult biologically, does not mean we are adults emotionally, psychologically, or spiritually. Many are still 8 year olds, thinking mainly of themselves and lacking compassion for others.

Your words could aptly apply to those who think it’s okay to kill OTHERS by abortion.

I do not agree with your judgement of others here. I'm quite certain if you were to take the time to speak with women who have chosen to abort unwanted pregnancies for a variety of reasons, quite a number of them viewed it as a terrible sacrifice to make for the greater good, for the sake of the child itself being born into a difficult, or impossible situation for the child and all others concerned. In other words, not selfishness, but selflessness to not allow a pregnancy to come to full term where a baby is born into the world.

There are many reasons people do things that we don't understand. A Christian response should be compassion and understanding, not judgement and dismissal based upon one's own situation and ideals.

 

[dianaiad]

AND those who would go to the Hair Salon
AND Nail Salons
AND Tattoo Studios
AND Tanning Salons
AND Dine In Restaurants (including fast food)
AND Court Houses
AND Town Halls
AND Departments (Bureaus) Of Transportation
AND Doctor Offices
AND Prisons
AND Jails
AND Non-Essential Jobs


Since it is not only churches...

But by all means, please continue to tell those of us here in the USA how it is just the churches being singled out...

Of course.

this thread:
(Religious Freedom) Now a crime in VA to attend services?

And many of the answers to it, as well as the complete lack of mention (until, perhaps, Mestemia) of gatherings anywhere else. Such as supermarkets...which weren't mentioned above, either, I notice.

.........I am rather interested in precisely how, if one makes it a felony to attend such meetings, one can avoid crowding the jails, but hey. Just a side 'hmmmnn....'

However one can shut down these businesses. It is unconstitutional to shut down religions. That's a problem. Now my own faith group shut everything down HARD earlier than most, but it does make me wonder; what a glorious excuse a law like this would be in terms of getting rid of churches! BUILT for it!

I came up with an idea that doesn't make holding these meetings illegal (we can't) but that provides real, and appropriate, consequences to those who deliberately attend them. How about you come up with a couple more instead of moving the goalposts all the way off the planet?

 

[John53]

That's an appeal to emotion, a logical fallacy. I never said I'm not concerned about people's lives.

I never said you weren't concerned and said only in America would be people be more concerned about constitutional rights than people they care for

Don't strawman, that's another logical fallacy that immediately loses the argument for you.

Ok you win 2 - 0 so there will be no need for you to answer my logical fallacies with a bit of a gish gallop and your own strawmen and appeal to emotion... well play Sir.

This is not Italy. Conditions are completely different. Italians are probably more reluctant to isolate themselves than Americans. Italians can't keep their hands to themselves... I know, I'm Italian and Sicilian. Extended families in close proximity are more common in Italy than in the US. Picture a boardwalk at the Jersey Shore or in California. That's many towns in Italy after dinner... the passegiata, the evening walk and get together in town to have un po' di caffè e pasticcino, coffee and pastry.

Do they deserve it? Of course not, but the comparisons between Italy and the US are invalid. If we want to compare, why does India, with a population of over 1.3 billion, some living in abject poverty, and extended families, have roughly 600(+/-) cases? Should we compare India and the US? What does India know that the US doesn't? Only recently PM Modi ordered a lockdown. Comparing the US to any other country is an invalid meme being latched onto and parroted.

The US economy is already showing signs of trouble. People have already lost jobs they'll probably never get back, not if businesses shut down and never re-open. Are you going to pay their bills, rent or mortgage or buy their food? Are you going to give them a place to live? No, I didn't think so.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. Amendment IV.



Gov. Murphy's executive order orders the police to break up gatherings in a private home of more than 10 people. So yeah, I'm concerned about our Constitutional rights.

 

[dianaiad]

AND those who would go to the Hair Salon
AND Nail Salons
AND Tattoo Studios
AND Tanning Salons
AND Dine In Restaurants (including fast food)
AND Court Houses
AND Town Halls
AND Departments (Bureaus) Of Transportation
AND Doctor Offices
AND Prisons
AND Jails
AND Non-Essential Jobs


Since it is not only churches...

But by all means, please continue to tell those of us here in the USA how it is just the churches being singled out...

And exactly where in the USA are the attendees being made felons and fined huge amounts for going to these places? I mean, really...that's not even true of California.

If this is your opinion of what SHOULD be, fine..it's an opinion that should be discussed, again IMO, in a thread that isnt completely devoted to church attendance.

In other words, don't move the goal posts. BTW, here in California,, I DARE you to find a Nail Salon, Tattoo studio, dine in restaurant, ect that is open so that people can violate a 10 person law. Since I had a medical appointment yesterday, and another set of medical tests the day before in preparation for a fairly long hospital stay beginning to day (NOT COVID 19 related) The cops would find it difficult to arrest anybody.

Shoot, in the City of Hope they wouldn't so much as be allowed in. No visitors.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Such as supermarkets...which weren't mentioned above, either, I notice.

Supermarkets sell food. We all need food to live.
No one has going to church as a necessity for life. You won't die without.

That's a problem.

The problem is that you want to go about as of you're the only one being burdened by this, the only one told they can't assemble, and the only funding generous having to follow these emergency policies.
Now, instead of trying to plead for special privileges and exemptions that no one else gets just accept the fact like anyone else you are not above the law. I have to follow it, you have to follow it.