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Religious Fundamentalism Could Soon be Treated as a Mental Illness

NewGuyOnTheBlock

Cult Survivor/Fundamentalist Pentecostal Apostate
Admittedly, I haven't real all of the posts here, but ....

Outright denial of other possible theories and firm belief in one, need to harm other living beings for the sake of an unknown scripture or culture, abetting ignorance and aversion towards education and knowledge, hatred of diversity, personal disgust towards other living beings and their ways... Religious or non religious, all these prove a hindrance to a civilized society where education is worshipped instead of idols and single scriptures.
So perhaps yes.

I would say that a key factor in determining who is to be treated is if the fundamentalist shows attitudes of dehumanizing human beings or devaluing life. In other words, if the belief supports or leans towards homocidal tendencies, then by all means, consider it a mental illness and get them off the streets.

A bad thing. A dangerous precedent.

Really? I have 2 names for you: Charles Manson and Jim Jones.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
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allright

Active Member
"Then there are the fanatical atheists whose intolerance is of the same kind as the religious fanatics and comes from the source" Albert Einstein
 

Demonslayer

Well-Known Member
Hallucinations are already treated as a mental illness

I don't know, on another thread I was saying people who report literally hearing God speak to them, or claiming to have visions, should be treated as mentally ill, and I got scolded for being a number of things including attacking religion and stigmatizing mental illness.

So while I personally agree with the categorization, I just don't think everyone agrees that 1) hearing the voice of God is a hallucination and 2) that it should be treated as such.
 

Demonslayer

Well-Known Member
A much as I hate religious fundamentalism, something about this makes me feel uneasy.

Me too and me too. To me, we can only categorize the things that are mental illness as mental illness. If some Christian fundamentalist has been indoctrinated so severely that they spend their life standing on street corners with anti-gay signs and ranting about how everyone is going to hell...not a mental illness. If you have someone...and I've seen reports of it on these boards...who are convinced they had experiences like flying through space with Jesus, and don't recognize it as a dream...mental illness.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
So while I personally agree with the categorization, I just don't think everyone agrees that 1) hearing the voice of God is a hallucination and 2) that it should be treated as such.

It should, if and only if the experiences are debilitating or interfering with their ability to, say, hold a steady job, have healthy interpersonal relationships, and so forth. Mental health professionals do not treat benign behaviors, as this is needlessly intrusive and on the same level as "gay conversion therapy" in terms of sleaziness.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Me too and me too. To me, we can only categorize the things that are mental illness as mental illness.
Like Narcissistic Personality Disorder? Obsessive Compulsive Disorder? And so forth? I believe fundamentalist thoughts and behavior do qualify as a disorder, like those do.

If some Christian fundamentalist has been indoctrinated so severely that they spend their life standing on street corners with anti-gay signs and ranting about how everyone is going to hell...not a mental illness.
That is exactly a mental illness. They have be brainwashed, as you say, "indoctrinated so severely" which is the same thing. When someone has been brainwashed, they develop mental illnesses. They have become, or have been made, mentally disturbed. Who in their right mind does these things? That is what this woman is talking about in the OP.

If you have someone...and I've seen reports of it on these boards...who are convinced they had experiences like flying through space with Jesus, and don't recognize it as a dream...mental illness.
Be careful to not equate religious ecstatic experiences with mental illnesses. A religious vision is not the same thing as a hallucination. Religious visions can and do result in transforming the individual in positive ways. This can be pointed to again and again. Hallucinations on the other hand are most often damaging to the person and their life. Any professional worth their salt should be able to recognize the difference.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
While I agree that fundamentalism is a pathological disorder of the mind and should probably be categorized as such, I also agree that to the layperson, or those who have political aspirations who manipulate the masses' ignorance, could abuse the term to attack anyone they oppose ideologically. That of course can happen now with just about anything, misusing categories to attack other for self-interested political gains. I think when it comes to fundamentalist thought, it demonstrates a pretty specific pattern of how the mind functions, not what the objects of its beliefs are however. Two people can believe in the same things, magic as in your example, but how the person believes about it, how they integrate or fail to integrate in healthy ways is what is considered fundamentalist thought as opposed to simply holding a system of symbolic beliefs. In other words it's not the beliefs but the dysfunctional ways in which those beliefs are held which makes someone fundamentalist.

This is why it can, and should be said, that fundamentalism exists in atheistic beliefs as well. I have met more than my share of fundamentalist atheists, who simply switched their fundamentalist minds' religious beliefs to beliefs in secular systems, replacing the authority of the Bible with the authority of Science, held by them with the same gravity as the Word of God was to them as a religious believer. It's still fundamentalism regardless of what the object of belief is. They have the "truth" and others believe in lies, are "lost" or deceived, and so forth. The exact same thing they said of the "non-believers" when they were in their religious cults. You can take the boy out of the country, but you can't take the country out of the boy, in other words. The illness is not what is believed in, but the manner in which it is held and the results in the person's life; extreme black and white thinking; intolerance of others; incapable of empathy, incapable of holding multiple points of views, fixations with beliefs and allergies towards others, and so forth.

I think this is a very good analysis on what the difference is.

My concern, however, is that these subtle nuances could become completely lost on most people. Even if there's no government-sanctioned "witch-hunts" of people who hold certain types of beliefs associated with fundamentalists, I worry about a minimum effect of religious and spiritual people becoming socially ostracized because of their beliefs, regardless of whether they practice in safe, healthy ways or not.

Consider that society already demonizes mental illnesses. "Psychopath" and "sociopath" are colloquially synonymous with "serial killer", even though the vast majority of people with antisocial personality disorder are not killers at all. There's still a stigma against getting therapy. Perhaps most relevant, diagnostic terms for mental disorders are thrown around in colloquial usage in reference to perfectly normal behaviors, such as OCD being used to refer to someone who would very much like the trash to be taken out on time; or more recently and close to home for me, "autist" becoming a new slur against intelligence.

So while I think in theory it makes sense to call fundamentalism a mental illness, I don't think it's a good idea to use the term as a diagnosis in practice.
 

allright

Active Member
Jeffrey Dahmer the serial killer who ate his victims said when interviewed he was a great believer in evolution. That we came from slime and go to nothing. Therefore he had no reason to conform to society's values.
Since belief in evolution causes people to become serial killers and cannibals belief in evolution should be treated as mental illness.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
That is exactly a mental illness. They have be brainwashed, as you say, "indoctrinated so severely" which is the same thing. When someone has been brainwashed, they develop mental illnesses.

I'll grant I'm not a mental health professional, but I took enough psych coursework in undergrad and have done enough mental health first aid training for my job that I'd like to think I'm reasonably knowledgable about this stuff. And, to my knowledge, this is simply not correct. Do yo have a citation that demonstrates that brainwashing (including, say, brainwashing someone to improve their self-esteem) is always diagnosed as a mental illness by the relevant professionals? As far as I'm aware, a charged term like "brainwashing" isn't recognized or used by the relevant professionals. :shrug:


Be careful to not equate religious ecstatic experiences with mental illnesses. A religious vision is not the same thing as a hallucination. Religious visions can and do result in transforming the individual in positive ways. This can be pointed to again and again. Hallucinations on the other hand are most often damaging to the person and their life. Any professional worth their salt should be able to recognize the difference.

It's worth remembering that the definition you are using of hallucination is more of a connotation than a denotation. The vanilla definition of a hallucination is simply a perception in the absence of external stimuli, which can be "good" or "bad." That said, in American culture at least, hallucination has strongly negative connotations and tends to be regarded as "bad."
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
I'll grant I'm not a mental health professional, but I took enough psych coursework in undergrad and have done enough mental health first aid training for my job that I'd like to think I'm reasonably knowledgable about this stuff. And, to my knowledge, this is simply not correct. Do yo have a citation that demonstrates that brainwashing (including, say, brainwashing someone to improve their self-esteem) is always diagnosed as a mental illness by the relevant professionals? As far as I'm aware, a charged term like "brainwashing" isn't recognized or used by the relevant professionals. :shrug:
The proper question is to ask if "brainwashing" even exists in the first place, because psychological testing has revealed that this "brainwashing," as it is commonly understood, does not happen or work. It's a far more complexed and involved procedure to get people to believe certain things. By the common use of the word, brainwashing would be nothing more than cultural and societal upbringing. But, even when I was a Christian, clearly I was not brainwashed because it was the way I was raised to be.
 

lovesong

:D
Premium Member
You have healthy belief patterns, religious or secular, and unhealthy ones.
This is where I have a problem. There are no "healthy" versus "unhealthy" belief patterns. There are unhealthy beliefs, like the belief in justified murder, but you seem to be going beyond that. You mention that a belief pattern is unhealthy if it leads to black and white thinking and the belief that one has the truth and all others are wrong, you seem to be describing fundamentalism as deep passion and unshaking belief in one's ideas. This is something that simply cannot be treated as a mental illness. Passion that strong occurs not only in religion, but in politics, philosophy, and even in feminism, environmentalism, and in animal and human rights movements. Unless someone's beliefs are showing true harm to themselves or others (god told me to kill/kill myself!), which is caused by a separate mental illness anyway, there is no reason to even consider a person's belief system to be a mental illness and treating it as such just begs for the beginning of the end of free thought.
 

blue taylor

Active Member
If anyone needs help for mental illness its this neurologist

You have to wonder what evil shes trying to excuse in her own life
For years people have been rescued from cults by friends and relatives and deprogramed back to normal. There are lots of documented cases of cult brainwashing out there. Look at what happened to Patty Hearst.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
The proper question is to ask if "brainwashing" even exists in the first place, because psychological testing has revealed that this "brainwashing," as it is commonly understood, does not happen or work. It's a far more complexed and involved procedure to get people to believe certain things. By the common use of the word, brainwashing would be nothing more than cultural and societal upbringing. But, even when I was a Christian, clearly I was not brainwashed because it was the way I was raised to be.

That's been my general understanding of the term as well. "Brainwashing" does not seem to be a thing, aside from it being a snarl word used by one group to paint the another group as nasty somehow.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
This is where I have a problem. There are no "healthy" versus "unhealthy" belief patterns. There are unhealthy beliefs, like the belief in justified murder, but you seem to be going beyond that.
I am being specific to patterns of thought, yes. Certainly things such as patterns of violence, for instance are different than simply an act of violence in and of itself. What I see fundamentalism as is much more a thought pattern or mode of thinking, than simply a single belief.

You mention that a belief pattern is unhealthy if it leads to black and white thinking and the belief that one has the truth and all others are wrong, you seem to be describing fundamentalism as deep passion and unshaking belief in one's ideas.
Not quite. First, I didn't intend to convey I believe that fundamentalism leads to black and white thinking and intolerance. It's really black and white thinking which creates fundamentalism itself and makes it attractive to those who have that mode of thinking already. Fundamentalist systems of belief simply reinforce that pattern, not create it out of nothing. I think what best defines fundamentalism is that it keeps someone locked into bad patterns, rather than helping them to grow. It reinforces negative things which work against the individual.

As far as "passion", I hardly equate that with black and white thinking. I can be and am deeply passionate about the things I believe in, however I am also quite open and receptive to challenges. I grow though them. I consider myself a passionate explorer of ideas and understandings to expand myself with. The fundamentalist on the other hand is the exact opposite. They are closed into their beliefs, locked on them, and resist any and all challenges to them. They become irrational in defensive of their beliefs, as their beliefs are the very footing upon which they stand. It's all they have, and what you may mistake as "passion" in their "zeal" for their beliefs, I see as the opposite. I see their "passion" as sheer fear and terror on their part they may be wrong. I see it as desperation. They need to be right, and hence why everyone else with a different perspective than their own must be demonized or destroyed. There's a radical difference between the two. The former is healthy, the latter is not.

This is something that simply cannot be treated as a mental illness. Passion that strong occurs not only in religion, but in politics, philosophy, and even in feminism, environmentalism, and in animal and human rights movements.
Again, there is a difference between being passionate about something one believes in, and being irrational and fanatical. The latter is a sickness, not healthy passion. It's like saying someone who has has OCD is just passionate. It's actually not passion at that point, but an illness. A healthy passion leads to one expanding one's self into others. An illness feeds upon itself and others. Fundamentalism is like vampirism. It feeds off others to feed itself. And it's like cancer in that it feeds off the host itself. It kills.

Unless someone's beliefs are showing true harm to themselves or others (god told me to kill/kill myself!), which is caused by a separate mental illness anyway, there is no reason to even consider a person's belief system to be a mental illness and treating it as such just begs for the beginning of the end of free thought.
Again, I never, ever said a belief system is a mental illness. I said how someone holds those beliefs is. Fundamentalism takes otherwise healthy beliefs and turns them into poison, both for the person holding them and those around them. Nothing good comes from it. Therefore, it's an illness.
 
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When someone comes to the point where they believe it is morally acceptable to kill people I am comfortable calling that a mental illness. Whether or not this illness has a religious flavour or not.

Then the vast majority of the world's population is mentally ill.

Humans are frequently violent, that's part of our collective nature. Most of us can rationalise killing in certain circumstances, even in the mollycoddled West (let alone the majority of the World).

Are chimpanzees mentally ill when they kill other chimps?
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
It has been shown that some fear based ideologies and beliefs present simultaneously with increased amygdala function. I guess that increased function might be termed a disease and some solution might be suggested. I think this is a rather slippery slope given today level of knowledge and that prescribing some medical intervention for the amelioration of increased amygdala function might be premature. That would, however, greatly reduce the numbers of fundamentalists, republicans and gun lovers.
 
It has been shown that some fear based ideologies and beliefs present simultaneously with increased amygdala function. I guess that increased function might be termed a disease and some solution might be suggested. I think this is a rather slippery slope given today level of knowledge and that prescribing some medical intervention for the amelioration of increased amygdala function might be premature. That would, however, greatly reduce the numbers of fundamentalists, republicans and gun lovers.

In your opinion, why might it be termed an illness, rather than simply reflecting the normal functioning of one part of humanity?
 
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