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Religious Headgear in Austria

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Hair =/= Fingernails. Baptised Sikhs keep unshorn hair, not fingernails.
I could explain why, but it'd be time consuming, and frankly I don't see a point in explaining something which will take me a long time and will be ignored.
Tis true that no explanation is needed.
I'd view it as a rationalization to do what they want (eg, cut fingernails) & avoid what they don't want (eg, cutting hair).
But the wearing of helmets could be rationalized too. After all, we live in a society where one person's traumatic brain injury
could incur enormous expense which would be paid for by the rest of us. It would be reasonable to disallow this exception,
& Sikhs would just drive cars instead....which would be their reasonable accommodation.
Now if they lived in Revoltistan, where no one is forced to pay for anyone else's medical bills, they could go helmetless &
wear only a Speedo if they so pleased. It would be entirely their risk if they couldn't pay for the burn ward or brain surgery,
& croaked as a result. But America is not Revoltistan (much to the relief of 99.99% of Americans).
 
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9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Now if they lived in Revoltistan, where no one is forced to pay for anyone else's medical bills, they could go helmetless &
wear only a Speedo if they so pleased. It would be entirely their risk if they couldn't pay for the burn ward or brain surgery,
& croaked as a result. But America is not Revoltistan (much to the relief of 99.99% of Americans).
In Revoltistan, do they simply scoop up injured motorcyclists and dump them in the ditch to die?

If they don't, then the injured motorcyclist will still be blocking the road and impeding traffic, creating collision risk for all the people behind.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
In Revoltistan, do they simply scoop up injured motorcyclists and dump them in the ditch to die?
If they don't, then the injured motorcyclist will still be blocking the road and impeding traffic, creating collision risk for all the people behind.
The prudent traveler carries money & ID, so that all such problems could be addressed as intended.
One could depend upon good samaritans to get to the hospital & get stiched up, but no rehab
center will do hundreds of thousands of dollars of work for free. Insurance is a useful thing to buy.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
Ideally, I will like uniform civil code everywhere. But the world is not ideal and acute sensitivities involved require delicate sensitive handling. In my view, that sensitivity is lacking in the arguments in this thread. Rationalisation can be seen on both sides, if that is what one wants to do.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Ideally, I will like uniform civil code everywhere. But the world is not ideal and acute sensitivities involved require delicate sensitive handling. In my view, that sensitivity is lacking in the arguments in this thread. Rationalisation can be seen on both sides, if that is what one wants to do.
Sensitivity to peoples whims & wants can go overboard too.
Thoughtful balancing is best.
 

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
Personal obligation counts for less than it does for religious obligation in the real world.

Got a problem? Take it up with the government, and not with us.
And that's exactly what the the Austrian guy was doing with the strainer....
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
I recognize this viewpoint (though I disagree with it, at least when it comes to motorcycle helmets), but it doesn't really deal with the issue at hand: you're arguing for no mandatory helmets for anyone, not that helmets should be mandatory for some but not others, which is what we're talking about with these religious exemptions.

IMO, if a religious exemption is reasonable, then it indicates that the law in question probably isn't reasonable. If it really is okay for a Sikh to ride a motorcycle without a helmet, then it should be okay for anyone to ride a motorcycle without a helmet. OTOH, if it's not okay for anyone else to ride a motorcycle without a helmet, then it's probably not okay for a Sikh, either. A Sikh will get just as dead or injured in a crash as a non-Sikh. It doesn't cost the taxpayers any less to treat a Sikh than anyone else, and a Sikh with a severe brain injury doesn't create any less of a burden on his family than a non-Sikh in the same condition.

But you're missing my point. Here was the end of my post:

"The only time headgear should be outlawed is when the safety or rights of others are compromised by the person wearing the headgear.​

Keep the religious question out of it. The state has no right determining the legitimacy of religious expression."

I'll add this - the only time headgear should be MANDATED is when the safety or rights of others are compromised by a person not wearing the headgear. (This would include on construction sites, or other places where headgear is protective, because of the risk to others if one is injured).

This is another debate, so let's please not get sidetracked. My point is that when the state steps in and tries to mandate just what is religious headgear and who can and can't wear religious garb - that's a really slippery slope. I believe the state should stay completely out of that question.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I remember applying for conscientious objector status back in the 70s. Certain religions (eg, the Amish)
got an automatic exemption. The rest of us had to convince Uncle Sam that we were religiously qualified.
That didn't work to well for me. Screw preferential treatment for state sanction religions.
 

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
I'll add this - the only time headgear should be MANDATED is when the safety or rights of others are compromised by a person not wearing the headgear. (This would include on construction sites, or other places where headgear is protective, because of the risk to others if one is injured).
What about, as in this case, outlawing the wearing of certain headwear? I'd assume the same conditions apply-- as long as it's not harming anyone or compromising their rights-- it should all be fine.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
What about, as in this case, outlawing the wearing of certain headwear? I'd assume the same conditions apply-- as long as it's not harming anyone or compromising their rights-- it should all be fine.

Well, of course. I said that a couple of posts back. If a guy wants to wear a spaghetti strainer on his head and look like a damn fool, that's his business.

Of course, I've seen worse. I was in the grocery store the other day and saw a girl come in wearing Emo clothes and a leather face mask with a zipper over her mouth -and a vest with black feather wings that stuck out - oh, and knee hi athletic socks, stupid looking tennis shoes with big tongues all flipped out, and a plaid school uniform skirt. And her hair looked like she'd just walked through an automatic car wash.

And the mask had a chain on it that was went around her neck. I gotta tell you - that's a crazy *** get up to wear to the grocery store.
 
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9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
But you're missing my point. Here was the end of my post:

"The only time headgear should be outlawed is when the safety or rights of others are compromised by the person wearing the headgear.​

Keep the religious question out of it. The state has no right determining the legitimacy of religious expression."
No, I got your point and responded to it. I just went off on a bit of a rant afterward. :D

I'll add this - the only time headgear should be MANDATED is when the safety or rights of others are compromised by a person not wearing the headgear. (This would include on construction sites, or other places where headgear is protective, because of the risk to others if one is injured).
It would also include motorcycle riders on the highway, for reasons that I've already gone into. An injury or fatality collision creates more risk for other users of the roadway than a property damage only collision would, and the decision to wear a helmet has a significant effect on the likely severity of a collision.

This is another debate, so let's please not get sidetracked. My point is that when the state steps in and tries to mandate just what is religious headgear and who can and can't wear religious garb - that's a really slippery slope. I believe the state should stay completely out of that question.
So do I... by not granting religious exemptions.

Of course, the flipside to this is that the prohibitions and requirements of our laws should be well thought out and justified. Once we're sure that what the law says is reasonable, then granting exemptions to it becomes unreasonable.

Just a thought, though: I can leave some wiggle-room open for religions in one way. IMO, the important thing is the overall purpose of the rule or law. If someone can come up with an alternate way of acheiving the same ends, that's fine by me.

For instance, the point of hard hat rules is to protect workers from head injuries. I don't really care whether it's done with a standard hard hat, plywood hoarding, a futuristic force field, or something else. If someone can create a way to acheive the objective while still maintaining their religious obligation, that's fine by me.

I mean, if some enterprising Sikh came up with an impact-absorbing version of an EZ-Up tent and got it certified by CSA, UL or whoever as an impact protection device, I'd have no problem with him (or anyone else) working under one of those on a construction site without a hard hat.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
I'm not arguing FOR religious exemptions. I'm saying that the state should not be in the business of determining the legitimacy of religious expression when that expression doesn't infringe on the rights of others.
 
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