Religious Intermediaries

[sun rise]

What are these exceptions?

There are a very few who strike me as advanced such as historically Sri Ramarkrishna, Rumi, St. Francis of Assisi, Baal Shem Tov, Rabia of Basra and others. What I know of them is that they were never religious intermediaries but rather functioned as guides and advisors.

To me, their advice could be summarized as "if you are trying to grow in a spiritual direction, this is a helpful way to go but the choice is yours".

 

[Vee]

A few questions here...

What makes these holy men or clergy members any closer to God than you? Nothing in the Bible indicates that. They are humans like the rest of us.

Why is it that they can commune or communicate with God better than you? We all have the same tool for communicating with God: prayer.

Are these intermediaries necessary in your religion? Why? No. We are encouraged to talk to God ourselves by praying. If we used other humans as intermediaries we would be giving them a superior position to ours. God didn't assign superior positions to humans over other humans. We are all on the same level.

 

[Kemosloby]

Why confess to God, God knows what you've done. If you confess your sins to a priest sworn to secrecy you can confess and nobody has to know about what you did. If you do like the bible says and confess your sins to one another then everybody knows what you done.

James 5:16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Allowing other humans to act as "stand-ins" for God is a terrible idea that almost always blows up in our faces. Amongst we humans, power corrupts. And the absolute power of a god will corrupt a human absolutely. Such that we should NEVER give another human being the pretense of possessing that kind of power.

Think Jonestown.

The People's Temple - the group at Jonestown - were Pentecostals. They didn't believe in intermediaries between God and man.

 

[Jainarayan]

Who is overseeing the pope?

The Pope is not accountable to anyone except Christ. When the Pope speaks ex cathedra, i.e. "from the chair (of St. Peter)" he is guided by the Holy Spirit. In that capacity he is infallible. He has advisors when acting as a ruling bishop, but in a sense he is an absolute monarch.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

What makes clergy closer to the gods than laity?

There is little question that those who center their professional careers around their religious tradition are going to have a deeper understanding of that religious tradition. Generally speaking, that's going to include deeper relationships and connections with the gods of that tradition as well. It's a simple function of time investment - when you invest more time in an activity and in a relationship, you have a stronger grasp of it. Non-professionals usually don't have the luxury of investing a lot of time in studying their religious traditions. They don't develop the level of expertise that professionals do. There are exceptions here and there, but as a general rule, career professionals are going to have more depth and understanding than non-professionals.

I'm a transportation engineer. There's a complaint about old-school traffic engineers who just apply standards without putting thought into why the standards are the way they are: "you don't have 30 years of experience! You have one year of experience repeated 30 times!"

I'm sure that other professions, including religion as a profession, can fall into this trap as well. It certainly seems that way from my perspective: of course it varies by religion and by individual, but often, religious study seems to have more to do with memorization than with cultivating insight.

It's this way in my profession: there are people who can quote chapter and verse from the AASHTO green book, but not be able to explain why the number they're quoting is what it is and not something else. I would be very surprised if professional religionists are immune from this.

 

[Scott C.]

A few questions here...

What makes these holy men or clergy members any closer to God than you?

Why is it that they can commune or communicate with God better than you?

Are these intermediaries necessary in your religion? Why?

If you have such intermediaries but don't feel they are necessary, do you use them? Why or why not?

In my LDS faith...

Every local congregation (ward) has a bishop. The bishop did not choose that position or vocation. He was called by the Lord, through the Stake President, to serve. He is then ordained a bishop. He continues to be employed in his own profession. He serves usually for about 5 years and then someone else is called. Here are what I consider to be important points in answer to your questions...

1. Because the bishop was called of God and has certain priesthood keys, he is the one God wants to help congregation members in specific ways. There are some things that only he is authorized to do.

2. This calling in no way means that the bishop is necessarily closer to God than any member of his congregation. He has his own problems and challenges in life. But bishops take their responsibility seriously and I think most men, when called as bishops, really try to be close to the Lord. They know that they need to receive inspiration and a few hundred church members now count on them to be in tune with God.

3. LDS church members are expected to confess "serious" sins to their bishop. This is done face to face in the bishop's office or somewhere else.

4. Because the bishop was called of God and holds the necessary priesthood keys, and not because he is necesarily closer to God, God gives the bishop the inspiration he needs to help the member.

5. The bishop does not forgive sins. He can put a member under church discipline, if needed, to encourage repentance, and he can end the discipline. That is done by inspiration. But only God forgives sin. God can and does tell the Bishop what steps the person should be encouraged to take to facilitate repentance and forgiveness.

6. God expects church members to follow this process for serious sins, which helps lead to forgiveness and a stronger discipline to resist the same temptation the next time around.

7. Usually when a member talks to their bishop, they feel a great sense of relief and love. Bishops are compassionate and understanding.

8. While the bishop plays a necessary role in such cases of repentance, of course the individual prays for personal inspiration and draws closer to God through the process. There is no intermediary that stands between the individual and God. There must be a personal relationship between each of us and God. But we respect and understand the roles that God has appointed for his called and ordained ministers.

9. I have had around 30 LDS bishops in my life time and have known some better than others. I can honestly say that whenever I have needed a Bishop for any reason, my experience has been positive. I have always felt that they loved and cared about me and my situation. I have sensed at times that they received very specific and timely inspiration for me. A few of my bishops significantly helped shape the course of my life in a positive way.

10. Bishops are called from various walks of life. My current bishop is an attorney. Prior bishop is a retired telephone company man (climbed the telephone poles). One owned a business. One managed a Sears store. They work very, very hard in their callings. The have full time jobs and families and spend many hours a week as bishop. While they are not perfect and will at times offend someone or do something dumb, I have a lot of respect and gratitude for them.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Every local congregation (ward) has a bishop. The bishop did not choose that position or vocation. He was called by the Lord, through the Stake President, to serve. He is then ordained a bishop. He continues to be employed in his own profession. He serves usually for about 5 years and then someone else is called. Here are what I consider to be important points in answer to your questions...

What event, aside from an arbitrary calendar date, marks the end of one's bishophood?

3. LDS church members are expected to confess "serious" sins to their bishop. This is done face to face in the bishop's office or somewhere else.

What sorts of sins are considered "serious?" What authority determines whether or not a sin is "serious?"

5. The bishop does not forgive sins. He can put a member under church discipline, if needed, to encourage repentance, and he can end the discipline. That is done by inspiration. But only God forgives sin. God can and does tell the Bishop what steps the person should be encouraged to take to facilitate repentance and forgiveness.

By what medium does God tell the bishop?

 

[Scott C.]

What event, aside from an arbitrary calendar date, marks the end of one's bishophood?



What sorts of sins are considered "serious?" What authority determines whether or not a sin is "serious?"



By what medium does God tell the bishop?

5 years seems to be a guideline, but it's not offical. My grandfather was a bishop for 10 years back in the '60's. It's the Stake President's call. He's the leader of a Stake which consists of several wards with Bishops. He is also called to his position and is usually in for 9 years. The Stake President asks God for inspiration on who to call and when to release them. He has to submit his recommendation (for the calling) to the church First Presidency for approval.

Serious sins are sexual sins, such as adultery and pre-marital sex. Crimes such as felonies are probably on the list. Acts of violence. Spouse abuse. Theft. There isn't really a comprehensive list. Sometimes people don't know for sure if they should confess. I've heard church leaders say "if you're not sure how serious the sin was, and if after asking the Lord in prayer, you don't feel the peace that comes from forgiveness, then go have a talk with your bishop." I like to remind myself that there are some serious sins or weaknesses that don't require confession to the bishop, but which still require serious soul searching and repentance. These are sins like not loving your neighbor as yourself. If someone feels they need help with that type of issue, the bishop would welcome a chat, but it's not the kind of sin that requires a confession.

The Lord speaks with the bishop the same way he speaks with any church member who receives revelation, inspiration, or spiritual promptings. It usually comes as impressions from the Holy Ghost. I believe those prompting are to a large extent, what makes the church tick.

I'll give an example. My wife is almost always called to serve in positions as a leader of the young women 12-18 years old. She was first called to do that when she was only 19. It seems to be a place that God wants her. She is called under the same inspiration as a bishop is called. I married my wife 2 years ago and she moved into my ward where she was not known. Nobody knew her history with youth. She was asked to give a talk in church one Sunday. She talked about adversity and how she dealt with her recent divorce and the rejection by her husband after 30 years. A bishop's councilor, while listening to the talk, had a strong spiritual feeling that she was the next young woman's president for the ward. The next Sunday, I spoke in church and he told me the impression returned that my wife should be called. He made the recommendation to the bishop and the bishop agreed. He called us in together to ask her if she would accept. When my wife told him that she had worked with young women for most of her life, he smiled and said he knew that the impression to call her was real. I know that may be a small story and many people will dismiss it, but it's quite common and very real.

And there's more to that story. My wife quickly became close to a girl who was 16 and had some struggles. She had some depression and threatened suicide. The mom told my wife that when her daughter was just about to turn 16, she knew she did not relate well to the current leader for 16+ year olds. She was worried and prayed that the right leader would come into her life as she entered that new age group. It was then that the bishopric decided to change the leadership and announced the new callings. Today we are both close to this girl and she is doing much better. I attribute my wife's relationship to her and the help she has given her, to the Lord who heard a mom's prayer, inspired a bishopric councilor, who then made a suggestion to the bishop, who then agreed. These spiritual impressions to act, with observed results that confirm the validity of the inspiration, happen over and over again.

Having men and women who are called of God, to serve in specific capacities, does not imply superiority or greater closeness to God. Nor does it imply that we can't have our own one on one personal relationship with God. Such a one on one relationship is vital. We are God's family. He puts us here to help one another. And I believe he calls people to specific positions for specific reasons.

 

[arthra]

Are these intermediaries necessary in your religion? Why?

In the Baha'i Faith there are no priests and we have no confession procedure as such. You can pray to God to have your sins forgiven. Our marriages are also without a minister or priest. We have a minimum of ceremony and basically require that the prospective bride and groom state that they will abide by the will of God in front of two witnesses. There are no altars or rites involving priests. The burial of a believer occurs where a prayer is recited in a congregation.

The "Intermediary" for us is the Manifestation of God..the Prophets and Messengers of God:

"For the Apostles and Messengers of God have ever been the channels of His abounding grace, and whatsoever man hath received from God hath been through the intermediary of those Embodiments of holiness and Essences of detachment, those Repositories of His knowledge and Exponents of His Cause."

~ Baha'u'llah, Tabernacle of Unity

 

[Jumi]

What makes these holy men or clergy members any closer to God than you?

Nothing. I'd say many of them are the furthest from God.

Why is it that they can commune or communicate with God better than you?

Not what I believe.

Are these intermediaries necessary in your religion? Why?

Quite the opposite.

If you have such intermediaries but don't feel they are necessary, do you use them? Why or why not?

Only for the comfort of those I care about.

 

[Thief]

When I was a child in a Catholic household, I had to confess my sins to a priest, and when asked, I was told because he was closer to God. I had to confess these sins so later in the day or the next day, I could be given communion by, yes, a priest. I never really understood why I couldn't confess my own sins to God or commune with Him myself.

Last rites are given to the dying by a priest for purpose of absolution of sin to prepare a dying person's soul.

In some traditions, marriage isn't recognized by God unless it is performed and sanctified by a holy man.


It appears that there are those that require a liaison to commune with God, or to offer God's seal of approval.


A few questions here...

What makes these holy men or clergy members any closer to God than you?

Why is it that they can commune or communicate with God better than you?

Are these intermediaries necessary in your religion? Why?

If you have such intermediaries but don't feel they are necessary, do you use them? Why or why not?

fair questions.....indeed
(I almost became a priest for cause of the schooling)

but it is written....
Go to your closet and close the door
and the Spirit that knows you will hear your prayer

 

[Vinayaka]

Are these intermediaries necessary in your religion? Why?

Definitely not. It's direct ... devotee to God.

 

[Jainarayan]

What makes these holy men or clergy members any closer to God than you?

Holy, closer to God? Nothing. Respected for their knowledge and dedication, yes.

Why is it that they can commune or communicate with God better than you?

Maybe only in the sense that they spend more time with the gods, but otherwise, nothing I can think of.

Are these intermediaries necessary in your religion? Why?

If you have such intermediaries but don't feel they are necessary, do you use them? Why or why not?

No, not necessary except in a communal setting such as a temple or at a blót. Then it's a matter of leading, guiding and/or performing the ritual for the gods on behalf of the gathering. It could get a bit chaotic if everyone were performing his or her own ritual in the same place at the same time.

On a personal level, e.g. at home, in Hinduism everyone is his or her own pujari (priest). In Heathenry everyone is his own goði (priest) or her own gyðja (priestess).

 

[PureX]

The People's Temple - the group at Jonestown - were Pentecostals. They didn't believe in intermediaries between God and man.

Of course they did. Each of their "leaders" acted as and was accepted by their followers as the absolute and unquestionable human representative of God's truth, and of God's will. What people say they believe, and what people actually believe, are often very different things.

 

[pearl]

Think Jonestown.

Or, Warren Jeffs’ FLDS (Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints).

 

[suncowiam]

I think this thread shows how arbitrary this concept is.

Every person, religion, sect has a personal answer.

I know what that already implies but people just aren't going to be honest about it.

I don't know God. Never met him so I can't say how to get close to him.

 

[pearl]

There have always been intermediaries otherwise one would have to believe in God's direct intervention.

The divine is mediated in and through man.

 

[Enoch07]

Nothing wrong with a Pastor or Nun or Priest etc. If someone wants to devote their life to studying the word and helping people that is perfectly ok.

What is not ok is when people say they are a intermediary/avatar/right hand of God/whatevs. Imho the Pope is no closer to God than the most hardcore atheist is. In God's eyes we are all equals regardless of ethnicity, religion, gender, etc.