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Religious Prejudice

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
It's the starting point for his doctrine of original sin, which he expresses in Romans 5.

Even if that wasn't his argument it remains that he is associating dishonesty with David.

The Lying Spouter and enemy epithets of the community at Qumran were most probably directed at Paul, he apparently responds to with:

Unchecked Copy Box
Gal 4:16 - Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?
Nice! I can see here what you are talking about in Romans 4 and 5. You could be right that they are opposed to James. He's got this idea going that Abraham is a believer rather than a doer. This does not jive with James, true. It is uncertain to me that there is just one Paul though. Also because of the political hierarchies of the bishops and struggles for dominance in early Christianity I don't fully trust that these letters are untouched even after the Pauls are done writing; but its Ok since I don't consider anyone authoritative. People always want to build castles that last forever, but castles do not.

I want to revisit this bit about the "All men are liars." There are two gospels (Matthew and Luke) which mention Jesus teaching about judging another's flaws, and it is the one where a person points out a speck another's eye but cannot see the plank their own eye. James chapter 3 also mentions something about not cursing men with the same tongue that blesses God, and I sense a common source concept of non judgment. So why does Paul mention this psalm 51 ? I have been unable to determine why, but I have benefited from pursuing the question, because I now understand this psalm better.

[Psa 51:5-6 NIV] "5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me. 6 Yet you desired faithfulness even in the womb; you taught me wisdom in that secret place."​

Psalm 51 to which Paul alludes to is about how David feels about a plague that killed so many and which could have destroyed the entire nation -- all because he was envious of a woman and had her husband killed. He is singing for sake of those who will be worthy, please stop the plague...and by extension preserve the name of the LORD. It seems like this psalm is indirectly alluding to Moses intercession for Israel although Moses is a hero while David is a villain. Moses doesn't cause Israel to be plagued. David does, so they are different sort of men. Opposites. The plague is stopped, though. This is the crux of the argument, whatever the argument Paul is making but which is not clear to me. David is guilty, yet he stops the plague. Moses stops the plague, too. Both make the same argument, and the argument is the classic: "Otherwise, the country from which you brought us will say, ‘Because the LORD was not able to take them into the land he had promised them, and because he hated them, he brought them out to put them to death in the wilderness.’" (Deuteronomy 9:28) David's song is more subtle, but it is calling this other story to mind. This is why line 4 says "...so you are right in your verdict and justified when you judge." David is stealing Moses argument, and Paul is alluding to that same argument. But does Paul know this psalm and what it is about? Probably, and we know this because of the line he uses to refer us to it. Therefore we should be able to determine what he is trying to say.

...but it is late. I must go to sleep. Thanks for an intriguing discussion.
 

Ebionite

Well-Known Member
I still think the proud man in Habakkuk refers to the babylonian invaders, because that info comes from previous chapters of the short book.

The proud man of Habakkuk 2:3 belongs to the time of the end, because he's part of the vision.

The "time of the end" (Daniel) relates to "at the end" (Habakkuk).
Many that "run to and fro" (Daniel) relates to "he may run" (Habakkuk).

But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, [even] to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
Daniel 12:4

And YHWH answered me, and said, Write the vision, and make [it] plain upon tables, that he may run that readeth it.
For the vision [is] yet for an appointed time, but at the end it shall speak, and not lie: though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not tarry.
Habakkuk 2:2-3

Daniel's knowledge relates to the the knowledge that justifies

He shall see of the travail of his soul, [and] shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
Isaiah 53:11

... which relates to the repudiation of sacrifice:

But go ye and learn what [that] meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Matthew 9:13

For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of Elohim more than burnt offerings.
Hosea 6:6

... specifically to knowledge about the doctrine of the resurrection, which connects back to the faith of the proud man of Habakkuk 2:5

After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
Hosea 6:2

For I [will be] unto Ephraim as a lion, and as a young lion to the house of Judah: I, [even] I, will tear and go away; I will take away, and none shall rescue [him].
Hosea 5:14

(To the chief Musician upon Aijeleth Shahar, A Psalm of David.) My El, my El, why hast thou forsaken me? [why art thou so] far from helping me, [and from] the words of my roaring?
Psalms 22:1
 

Ebionite

Well-Known Member
Nice! I can see here what you are talking about in Romans 4 and 5. You could be right that they are opposed to James. He's got this idea going that Abraham is a believer rather than a doer. This does not jive with James, true. It is uncertain to me that there is just one Paul though. Also because of the political hierarchies of the bishops and struggles for dominance in early Christianity I don't fully trust that these letters are untouched even after the Pauls are done writing; but its Ok since I don't consider anyone authoritative. People always want to build castles that last forever, but castles do not.
James' argument for justification by works is supported by Ezekiel:

But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
Ezekiel 18:21

Justification by faith relates to the justification by knowledge of Isaiah 53:11, but of course faith and knowledge are not the same, since knowledge can be validated.

History is written by the winners, and for the first century CE the winners were the Romans. Paul endorsed Roman authority, so that implies that there wasn't much motive for the redaction Paul's epistles.

Occam's Razor is a useful tool for rationalizing belief in the most probable explanation. It implies that beliefs should be retested when new information turns up.

I want to revisit this bit about the "All men are liars." There are two gospels (Matthew athe LORDnd Luke) which mention Jesus teaching about judging another's flaws, and it is the one where a person points out a speck another's eye but cannot see the plank their own eye. James chapter 3 also mentions something about not cursing men with the same tongue that blesses God, and I sense a common source concept of non judgment.
The idea that all men are liars isn't consistent with the common law presumption of innocence. Judgment with prejudice doesn't lead to a just outcome.

I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
John 5:30

Justice and judgment [are] the habitation of thy throne: mercy and truth shall go before thy face.
Psalms 89:14

To do justice and judgment [is] more acceptable to YHWH than sacrifice.
Proverbs 21:3

So why does Paul mention this psalm 51 ?
IMO it is to provide a context in which dishonesty is of value, since it can leads to knowledge of the judgment of Elohim.

[Psa 51:5-6 NIV] "5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me. 6 Yet you desired faithfulness even in the womb; you taught me wisdom in that secret place."
Possibly this relates to David's grandfather Obed, who was the son of Ruth the Moabitess.

An Ammonite or Moabite shall not enter into the congregation of YHWH; even to their tenth generation shall they not enter into the congregation of YHWH for ever:
Deuteronomy 23:3

Psalm 51 to which Paul alludes to is about how David feels about a plague that killed so many and which could have destroyed the entire nation -- all because he was envious of a woman and had her husband killed.
No, the plague was about David numbering Israel.

And again the anger of YHWH was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.
2 Samuel 24:1

And David built there an altar unto YHWH, and offered burnt offerings and peace offerings. So YHWH was intreated for the land, and the plague was stayed from Israel.
2 Samuel 24:25

The reason for the anger relates to the adversarial response, which leads back to dishonesty. Satan is a title, not a proper name.

And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.
1 Chronicles 21:1

For he said, Surely they [are] my people, children [that] will not lie: so he was their Saviour.
In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old.
But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, [and] he fought against them.
Isaiah 63:8-10

Thanks for an intriguing discussion.
You're most welcome, I find it useful too.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Religious prejudice is in line with racial, ethnic, racial orientation, and other identity prejudices.

Religious prejudice is based mainly on ancient tribal religious identities that exclude other tribes from the 'chosen' believers in the one 'True tribe.'

Some gloss this over with the illusion of tolerance of other tribes, but in reality tolerance is by degree intolerance of those that believe differently
 

Ebionite

Well-Known Member
Religious prejudice is in line with racial, ethnic, racial orientation, and other identity prejudices.

Religious prejudice is based mainly on ancient tribal religious identities that exclude other tribes from the 'chosen' believers in the one 'True tribe.'

Some gloss this over with the illusion of tolerance of other tribes, but in reality tolerance is by degree intolerance of those that believe differently
How would someone objectively identify religious prejudice?
 
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ppp

Well-Known Member
Religious prejudice is in line with racial, ethnic, racial orientation, and other identity prejudices.

Religious prejudice is based mainly on ancient tribal religious identities that exclude other tribes from the 'chosen' believers in the one 'True tribe.'

Some gloss this over with the illusion of tolerance of other tribes, but in reality tolerance is by degree intolerance of those that believe differently
Tolerance is not approval. There is nothing about tolerance that require one to participate or even like some aspect of another culture. It is the ability to recognize that it is to our advantage to accept that people may be different from us; in their customs, in their behavior, in their dress, in their sex lives, and that if this doesn’t directly affect our lives, it is none of our business. Mere disagreement is not intolerance.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Tolerance is not approval. There is nothing about tolerance that require one to participate or even like some aspect of another culture. It is the ability to recognize that it is to our advantage to accept that people may be different from us; in their customs, in their behavior, in their dress, in their sex lives, and that if this doesn’t directly affect our lives, it is none of our business. Mere disagreement is not intolerance.
The issue of religious prejudice and intolerance is not simply disagreements. Simple disagreements are simple everyday disagreements.

Religious prejudice and worse is based on basic tribal barriers that run deeper than simple disagreements. History is a witness to the relationship between religious tribes such as Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, and between their divisions.

Tolerance is just a degree of intolerance when you are in a different tribe.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
How would someone objectively identify religious prejudice?

By the definition of prejudice, actually, the relationships between the tribal religions and their divisions are most often worse than mere prejudice.


Prejudice is an assumption or an opinion about someone simply based on that person's membership to a particular group. For example, people can be prejudiced against someone else of a different ethnicity, gender, or religion.

If someone is acting on their prejudices, they are pre-judging (hence the term "prejudice") someone before even getting to know them on a deeper level. This is an irrational attitude and mindset which does no good for anyone involved.
 

ppp

Well-Known Member
The issue of religious prejudice and intolerance is not simply disagreements. Simple disagreements are simple everyday disagreements.
Agreed.
Religious prejudice and worse is based on basic tribal barriers that run deeper than simple disagreements. History is a witness to the relationship between religious tribes such as Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, and between their divisions.
True.

Tolerance is just a degree of intolerance when you are in a different tribe.
Can you break that down? Tolerance is the willingness to accept, or even endure the Other. Intolerance is the unwillingness to accept or endure the Other. While one may shift from one view to its opposite, That does not make one a degree of the other, does it?
 

Ebionite

Well-Known Member
By the definition of prejudice, actually, the relationships between the tribal religions and their divisions are most often worse than mere prejudice.
OK, so what are the essential differences between Judaism, Christianity, and Islam?

I would argue that they are the differences in the interpretation of the crucifixion. If there is an objective view of that then there is a reasonable basis for identifying prejudice.
 
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ppp

Well-Known Member
OK, so what are the essential differences between Judaism, Christianity, and Islam?

I would large that they are the differences in the interpretation of the crucifixion. If there is an objective view of that then there is a reasonable basis for identifying prejudice.
That sounds like the perspective of a Christian unfamiliar with either other religion. That the others are merely Christianity without Christ.
 

Bthoth

Well-Known Member
Denial is a natural expression of prejudice which is described in the gospel of John:

If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
John 15:19

What I'm looking to debate is my claim that looking at religious prejudice in the context of the betrayal by Judas Iscariot leads to insight about the crucifixion and fulfilment.
Persons claiming to be chosen above any others of mankind is a religious expression of prejudice.

Why are so many so blind to that?
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
OK, so what are the essential differences between Judaism, Christianity, and Islam?
I am not sure why you are asking this question without a very basic knowledge of these religions and the history of their relationships. Judaism does not accept the beliefs of Christianity or Islam. Christianity does not accept the beliefs of Judaism or Islam. Islam does not accept the beliefs of Judaism and Christianity. Each considers itself the highest Revelation from God and is definitely separated by tribal boundaries and often at war with each other and persecuting the followers of the other religions.

Their relationships over time go beyond simple prejudice, which is a common general theme includes negative generalizations about the believers of other religions.


I would argue that they are the differences in the interpretation of the crucifixion. If there is an objective view of that then there is a reasonable basis for identifying prejudice.
 

Ebionite

Well-Known Member
I am not sure why you are asking this question without a very basic knowledge of these religions and the history of their relationships.
Why are you assuming that I don't have that knowledge?
Judaism does not accept the beliefs of Christianity or Islam. Christianity does not accept the beliefs of Judaism or Islam. Islam does not accept the beliefs of Judaism and Christianity
That's an oversimplification. Both Christianity and Islam endorsed the prophets of Judaism.
 

Ebionite

Well-Known Member
It isn't. Both islam and Christianity appropriated and reconned the Hebrew prophets.
Bollocks. Islam describes Abraham as being a Muslim, but that's about submission, not about him holding to ordinary Muslim belief about Muhammad etc. Christianity's text just says "it is written", and it doesn't pretend that the prophets were Christians.
 

Ebionite

Well-Known Member
That sounds like the perspective of a Christian unfamiliar with either other religion. That the thers are merely Christianity without Christ.
More bollocks. I said that the interpretations were different. Islam recognises Isa (Yeshua) as the Messiah.
 

ppp

Well-Known Member
Bollocks. Islam describes Abraham as being a Muslim, but that's about submission, not about him holding to ordinary Muslim belief about Muhammad etc. Christianity's text just says "it is written", and it doesn't pretend that the prophets were Christians.
Is that supposed to be some sort of refutation of, "It isn't. Both islam and Christianity appropriated and retconned the Hebrew prophets"?

Retconning is re-spinning the story, either textually, or via interpretation. You literally describe appropriation with Islam and Abraham. Being about submission, if you are correct about that, would not make it less appropriative. As for Christianity, while both Jews and Christians recognize the importance and prophetic nature of Isaiah 54, they often interpret it differently based on their own theological frameworks. In Judaism, the focus is usually more on the collective future of the Jewish people, while in Christianity, the text is about the Church and the redemptive work of Jesus Christ. And Christianity shoved the Original Sin/Tainted Soul narrative in. That BS does not exist in Judaism.
 
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