Religious symbols in schools

[McBell]

A school should not have bad rules.

Who gets to decide what rules are "bad"?

 

[nilsz]

Who gets to decide what rules are "bad"?

Ideally whoever is right.

I argue that a rule that bans modest religious symbols in school is bad because it tells students to suppress their heritage. A perhaps more extreme example of that would be the Norwegian assimilation policy towards the Sami, which meant for instance that in school, the Sami were often not allowed talk their native language. Samis have argued that the policy has caused major psychological trauma in making students believe they came from an inferior culture.

I also find it questionable whether it is beneficial to other students to have the world around them obscured in such a manner. Will they learn to accept that we are different, and believe different things?

 

[Ingledsva]

Ideally whoever is right.

I argue that a rule that bans modest religious symbols in school is bad because it tells students to suppress their heritage. A perhaps more extreme example of that would be the Norwegian assimilation policy towards the Sami, which meant for instance that in school, the Sami were often not allowed talk their native language. Samis have argued that the policy has caused major psychological trauma in making students believe they came from an inferior culture.

I also find it questionable whether it is beneficial to other students to have the world around them obscured in such a manner. Will they learn to accept that we are different, and believe different things?

Not allowing religious symbols in a school, is not the same as the Saami forced reeducation, and forced language change. By the way the Saami are fighting these countries.


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[nilsz]

Not allowing religious symbols in a school, is not the same as the Saami forced reeducation, and forced language change. By the way the Saami are fighting these countries.

That is true, every experience is unique. But does that mean that we can never learn anything from past experience? You will have to argue why the wisdom gained from one experience cannot be extrapolated to another. What countries are you referring to, and how are the Sami fighting against them?

I figured I should read someone who likely had deeper insight into the issue than I do. Here's an essay by Marjane Satrapi, a Irianian-born woman who told about her experience with suppression in Iran through the award-winning Persepolis comic:

Marjane Satrapi: women should have a choice over hijab | World news | The Guardian

 

[bobhikes]

It is fine to discuss it, in fact children should have an understanding of all the major religions as a matter of general knowledge. However it is not acceptable to try to force one's faith on a child, they should make up their own minds about such matters.

Putting a Cross or Star in a school is not forcing a child. The worst I heard is that is makes my son/daughter uncomfortable.

 

[dantech]

On a similar, related note...

It always peeves me off when ever I think of how Konami totally censored their Trading Cards for a Western demographic, yet they remain unchanged in Japan:

Monster Reborn went from this:
http://plamoya.com/bmz_cache/b/b5ca9aa23f04f6c742bb4f432aae01a8.image.345x500.jpg

to this:
http://toylynx.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/monsterreborndpyg-en-r-1e.jpg

Foolish Burial went from this:
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/_...ioh/images/c/c1/FoolishBurial-JP-Anime-5D.png

To this:
http://static4.wikia.nocookie.net/_.../images/3/3c/FoolishBurial-LCJW-EN-ScR-1E.png

Injection Fairy Lily went from this:
http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/_...oh/images/0/02/InjectionFairyLilyMA-JP-NR.jpg

To this:
http://static2.wikia.nocookie.net/_...ages/d/da/InjectionFairyLily-LCJW-EN-C-1E.png

Konami removed every religious symbol, every reference to it...even removing the horns from monsters and making demons (the deck I play, which they call 'Fiends' to discredit any religious significance) all cuddly and 'cute'...it is deplorable.

They do it so as not to offend any 'religious sensitivity', so that Muslim mothers (for example) would have no qualms about letting their children play a 'children's' card game.

'Soccer Moms' have too much sway in politics. That is for certain.

While ever a religious symbol is displayed anywhere, somebody is going to whine about it...and if they whine for long enough, hard enough and to the right people, legal stuff can happen, so they remove all this religious imagery so that these kinds of people won't have any legs to stand on.

It's bad that society has to pander to this all in the name of 'religious tolerance', when if it takes a symbol to upset people, their faith mustn't be all that strong to begin with.

I agree with most of what you said, but if there was a card with a swastika on in, It would bother me to see my child playing with it.

 

[McBell]

Ideally whoever is right.

How wold it be determined who is right?

I argue that a rule that bans modest religious symbols in school is bad because it tells students to suppress their heritage

What poor poor heritage indeed if not being allowed to wear a symbol for it during school hours would so easily suppress it.

Would you also defend a firefighters child the right yell fire in a crowded movie theatre so said child does not feel their heritage is being suppressed?

 

[nilsz]

How wold it be determined who is right?

This is a discussion about whether it is a good idea to ban religious symbols in school. When you reject commonly agreed upon notions of whether this is right and wrong, then you have rejected a premise for partaking in this debate. You are saying that this is a stupid discussion to have, and I disagree.

Now what are you doing here? Shoo!

What poor poor heritage indeed if not being allowed to wear a symbol for it during school hours would so easily suppress it.

Would you also defend a firefighters child the right yell fire in a crowded movie theatre so said child does not feel their heritage is being suppressed?

There's a thing you may have heard of, called nuance. It is difficult to argue that wearing a veil is disrespectful to anyone present, the same can not be said for yelling in a movie theatre.

 

[Ingledsva]

That is true, every experience is unique. But does that mean that we can never learn anything from past experience? You will have to argue why the wisdom gained from one experience cannot be extrapolated to another. What countries are you referring to, and how are the Sami fighting against them?

I have a Swedish Saami background. Swedish and Norwegian Saami, and their reindeer where brought to Alaska in the 1800's after trappers tried to wipe out anything with fur.

The Saami started fighting back against the countries trying to claim them, and force reeducate them, in the 50's. At that point they started organizations to fight such.

Today they have The Saami Council Sámiráđđi, their own independence day, and their own flag and parliament.


They continue to fight for their freedom to this day. Just Google Saami independence.


While on Google Saami, click the IMAGES, they are very interesting.


The Saami used teepees in the Summers while traveling just like some American Indians, and built teepee/domed earth dwellings (like the Vikings) for the winter.


Flag - http://mw2.google.com/mw-panoramio/photos/medium/5304134.jpg


Swedish Saami - note the mound house in the background - http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/images/stories/large/2012/08/06/sami-2574128-crop.jpg



Song with drum and throat singing - [youtube]LpiFmZLICgM[/youtube]
Eivør - Trøllabundin - YouTube


Some Saami - http://thornews.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/samer.jpg


Swedish Sammi lavvu on lake - http://sweden.se/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Traditional-Sami-tents-2048x1152.jpg


Teepees (lavvu) - http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-PXHEGjbRn...Zd9hI8j5nxk/s640/mongolian+tepee+download.jpg


Lavvu - http://lavvu.com/picts/lavvu53.gif


Winter earth mound house - http://week.ge/uploads/posts/2012-02/1330029156_3585253220_30b239b2db.jpg






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[Bismillah]

What poor poor heritage indeed if not being allowed to wear a symbol for it during school hours would so easily suppress it.

 

[Nakosis]

This is a subject that causes a lot of problems here in France and there are constantly talks about removing religious symbols from schools.
If I had a saying religious symbols of any kind would never be allowed inside a school and religion in general would not be mixed with secular affairs such as politics and public education. It's not disrespect but simply a belief that things belong in their own place.
What is your view? Should schools allow crosses, veils, t-shirts with religious messages, etc?

I'm all for freedom of speech and freedom of religion. I think the problem is when there is an expectation that speech or religious holds any special authority.

A teacher, bringing a Bible/Koran, some other religious text and reading it in class everyday would not bother me. I suppose I teach my kids to question what anyone claims, including myself.

People are afraid of the power of religion...? But we are who gives it power. I think if children are taught to understand that then there is nothing to fear from religion.

 

[Tarheeler]

I don't see any problem with students and even teachers wearing religious symbols- and not just my religion, all faiths. But, as for wall hangings, if they let one religion do that, then they would have to let all faiths do it, as well. That may not be too practical, so maybe limit wall hangings to secular items.

I agree. I don't have a problem with Christians wearing crosses, Jewish boys wear kippot, Muslim girls wear hijab, or anyone else wearing symbols of their faith if they choose to. It's a personal display and observance.

I do have a problem with a public school displaying religious symbols, requiring religious instruction, or otherwise attempting to indoctrinate students into any religion.

 

[Bismillah]

I agree. I don't have a problem with Christians wearing crosses, Jewish boys wear kippot, Muslim girls wear hijab, or anyone else wearing symbols of their faith if they choose to. It's a personal display and observance.

I do have a problem with a public school displaying religious symbols, requiring religious instruction, or otherwise attempting to indoctrinate students into any religion.

I agree completely.

 

[FunctionalAtheist]

This is a subject that causes a lot of problems here in France and there are constantly talks about removing religious symbols from schools.
If I had a saying religious symbols of any kind would never be allowed inside a school and religion in general would not be mixed with secular affairs such as politics and public education. It's not disrespect but simply a belief that things belong in their own place.
What is your view? Should schools allow crosses, veils, t-shirts with religious messages, etc?

I believe any child or grown up should be able to have the symbols on their book covers or other personal property. They should be able to pray during breaks etc. As long as they are respectful to everyone else's rights.

I do not believe religious symbols should be hung in class or prayers should be a class activity.

 

[McBell]

This is a discussion about whether it is a good idea to ban religious symbols in school. When you reject commonly agreed upon notions of whether this is right and wrong, then you have rejected a premise for partaking in this debate. You are saying that this is a stupid discussion to have, and I disagree.

Now what are you doing here? Shoo!

Why are you afraid of answering the question?
I mean, you are the one saying that someone, somewhere needs to declare what is and what is not a "bad" rule, yet you cannot say who?
I have not even gotten into what criteria is to be used to determine what is and is not a "bad" rule....

There's a thing you may have heard of, called nuance.

Yes, I know what nuance is.
It is what you are trying to hide behind.

the problem is that you are merely tossing out the word with nothing but your claim of a nuance to support your use of the word.....


No worries though.
Now that I know the specifics are this difficult for you, I shall stop pestering with the annoying detail questions.

have a nice day.

 

[McBell]

Am I to take it you disagree?
Why?

 

[HiddenHijabi]

I have often felt it should be an all or nothing situation- either all symbols are allowed or none at all. That way there is no favouritism shown to any one religion (especially in the case of countries with one especially dominant religion) whilst no-one can then say they're unfairly being discriminated against either.

I would personally see little issue with personal religious symbols, which have meaning and significance to the wearer, if they're posing no issue to anyone else.