Religious views on abortion

[9-10ths_Penguin]

So as a Canadian, you think US Law (Roe v Wade) is foolish because it grants certain rights to viable fetuses? I'm sorry, my nausea is going to prevent further discussion.

How did you get from "I'm Canadian" to "I think Roe v. Wade is foolish?"

Before asking whether fetuses should have rights at all, maybe ask whether they should have more rights than an actual baby.

If the answer is no, then a pregnant person should have just as much right to refuse the use of their body and its component parts as a parent of a child should have the right to refuse the use of their body and its component parts.

In both of our countries, in almost all contexts, the right to bodily security supersedes someone else's right to life.

In fact, even the bodily security of a corpse supersedes someone else's right to life. If you say you don't want to donate your organs, then your wishes will still be respected even after you die, regardless of how many lives your decision costs.

Do you think a pregnant person is entitled to at least the rights that we grant to corpses? If not, why not?

 

[BilliardsBall]

That's quite a list. Is there anyone left who you think actually deserve basic human rights?


Sure: it's something wonderful when it's freely consented to, but a horrendous crime when it's forced.

It's kind of like sex that way, which is why I compare your position to that of a rapist.

Basic human rights doesn't equal "right to murder".

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Basic human rights doesn't equal "right to murder".

Basic human rights often place one person's right to something (e.g. bodily security) ahead of someone else's right to life.

A pregnant person's right not to be pregnant any more and your right not to have a kidney forcibly removed against your will are the same right.

... so understand that I view you in the same light as I view people who support illegal organ harvesting. Your position is evil.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Basic human rights often place one person's right to something (e.g. bodily security) ahead of someone else's right to life.

A pregnant person's right not to be pregnant any more and your right not to have a kidney forcibly removed against your will are the same right.

... so understand that I view you in the same light as I view people who support illegal organ harvesting. Your position is evil.

No, human rights rarely, not often, place a right ahead of a right to life. Here are two examples in your world:

1) Someone is coming to rape or kill you (evil person) so you kill them first (self-defense).

2) You don't want to gain weight and retain water, or deal with trauma of adoption, so you take an innocent baby and . . .

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No, human rights rarely, not often, place a right ahead of a right to life.

What do you spend each year on comfort items... non-necessities: your internet and whatever smartphone or laptop you're on RF with, for instance? Probably not zero.

You can spend your money as you see fit because you have a right to property.

How many people die each year because of stuff that just needs money in order to fix the problem? How many deaths could have been foregone if someone had decided that someone else's right to life superseded your right to property?

The reason no government says "nope - you don't get to go on vacation. We're using your vacation fund to install a water treatment system in a village somewhere" is because your right to property supersedes those villagers' right to life.

 

[McBell]

What do you spend each year on comfort items... non-necessities: your internet and whatever smartphone or laptop you're on RF with, for instance? Probably not zero.

You can spend your money as you see fit because you have a right to property.

How many people die each year because of stuff that just needs money in order to fix the problem? How many deaths could have been foregone if someone had decided that someone else's right to life superseded your right to property?

The reason no government says "nope - you don't get to go on vacation. We're using your vacation fund to install a water treatment system in a village somewhere" is because your right to property supersedes those villagers' right to life.

I strongly suspect you have presented a reality they are simply unable to accept.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

A pregnant person's right not to be pregnant any more and your right not to have a kidney forcibly removed against your will are the same right.

A fetus is not analogous to a kidney. It has its own distinct DNA.

Neither is it analogous to a born person.

The truth is, there is just nothing quite like a fetus. It is in a class all by itself. It is NACIENT human life, by which I mean new human life coming into existence. There really is no analogy for it. This is what makes the abortion debate so complicated. Both sides are throwing around metaphors that really don't work.

 

[McBell]

A fetus is not analogous to a kidney. It has its own distinct DNA.

Neither is it analogous to a born person.

The truth is, there is just nothing quite like a fetus. It is in a class all by itself. It is NACIENT human life, by which I mean new human life coming into existence. There really is no analogy for it. This is what makes the abortion debate so complicated. Both sides are throwing around metaphors that really don't work.

ouch

 

[BilliardsBall]

What do you spend each year on comfort items... non-necessities: your internet and whatever smartphone or laptop you're on RF with, for instance? Probably not zero.

You can spend your money as you see fit because you have a right to property.

How many people die each year because of stuff that just needs money in order to fix the problem? How many deaths could have been foregone if someone had decided that someone else's right to life superseded your right to property?

The reason no government says "nope - you don't get to go on vacation. We're using your vacation fund to install a water treatment system in a village somewhere" is because your right to property supersedes those villagers' right to life.

I have rights to defend my civil liberties, property and body (and bodily autonomy), YES.

I believe in medical abortions for ectopic pregnancies (life-saving for the mother). YES.

I cannot kill my neighbor because he is standing in my way and I have to walk around him. My bodily autonomy does not allow me to up my level to murder for the sake of weight gain or loss or other inconvenience. This besides the fact that a pregnancy is a blessing, a baby--not a parasite.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I have rights to defend my civil liberties, property and body (and bodily autonomy), YES.

There you go. Now support these rights for others... including pregnant people.

I believe in medical abortions for ectopic pregnancies (life-saving for the mother). YES.

No you don't.

Every pregnancy is potentially life-threatening. If you wait until it's clear that the only thing that will save a pregnant person's life is an abortion, it's often too late.

Your position costs lives. Own it.

I cannot kill my neighbor because he is standing in my way and I have to walk around him. My bodily autonomy does not allow me to up my level to murder for the sake of weight gain or loss or other inconvenience. This besides the fact that a pregnancy is a blessing, a baby--not a parasite.

Stuff like this is why I say that your take on consent and bodily security is that of a rapist or an organ harvester.

 

[BilliardsBall]

There you go. Now support these rights for others... including pregnant people.


No you don't.

Every pregnancy is potentially life-threatening. If you wait until it's clear that the only thing that will save a pregnant person's life is an abortion, it's often too late.

Your position costs lives. Own it.


Stuff like this is why I say that your take on consent and bodily security is that of a rapist or an organ harvester.

Huh? My family had to make a challenging decision re: an ectopic pregnancy. Doctors/sonograms, etc. and proactivity was in play.

"Your position costs lives. Own it."

Your position has cost tens of millions of lives since Roe v. Wade in America alone!