Removal of Feeding Tube

[martha]

I believe all of the hype has clouded judgements. I believe death is a natural part of life's journey. We are all going to die. No one wants it to happen to our loved ones and we and the doctors would hold out hope by giving extreme measures to extend existance. We always hope for a miracle, doctors, spouses and judges included. I believe our technology has gotten hold of the natural progression of the human being. IMHO tubes, forced air and forced nutrition is not the way, at least, not for an extended period of time. If the prognosis is not favorable for a normal life, then who are we to try to prolong it for our own heartfelt loving reasons? What I describe as a normal life is being able, even if paralyzed, to interact with people to some degree. If a person's brain is still functional, then technology can afford them the opportunity to "speak" by means of computer optic interraction. If the brain is non-functional, then it is my belief that life is over and existance is futile. We try to keep them here because we love them and it is we who would suffer if we let them die. We also must consider there is much pressure put upon the family by the opinions of others, ie; how will we be viewed by others if we let our loved ones die. This is the most trying and difficult position to be in. We can all speculate about what we would do. In reality we can never understand until we are placed in that same position.

I pray that this woman will be given the right to live or die without the aid of extreme measures. As someone said, just try to lay still for one hour, and then imagine that for the rest of your existance. The body will live out it's natural life with no help from others. If it is time to leave then let them leave.

Technology is a wonderful thing if it enhances life. If technology only prolongs existance of the body and not the mind and soul, then it is futile. In respect to the husband, I don't think his wife being alive and force fed or not has any bearing upon his relationship with another woman. I do not believe he truly wants to "kill" his wife. He wants her to live or die naturally.

 

[jamaesi]

http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/infopage.html

You're left with a woman who suffered a heart attack 15 years ago, who essentially died but was resuscitated, though not entirely. Her brain had suffered enormous damage from the heart attack. As time passed, her brain further deteriorated -- to the point where much if not most of her cerebral cortex (the portion of the brain that controls conscious thought, among other things) was literally gone, replaced by spinal fluid. Doctors hired by Terri's husband say the deterioration of Terri's brain left her without thoughts or feelings, that the damage is irreversible, and that Terri's life-like appearance is merely the result of brain stem activity -- basically involuntary reflexes we all have. An independent doctor hired by the court reached the same conclusions. Doctors hired by Terri's parents did not dispute the physical damage done to Terri, but they claim there are new therapies that could improve her condition. In two separate trials, the trial court found such claims of potential improvement to be without merit. Terri's body continues to function without her cerebral cortex. She is sustained by a feeding tube surgically inserted into her stomach. She cannot eat through her mouth without a strong likelihood of choking to death.

You're left with a husband who lived with his in-laws following Terri's heart attack, who apparently provided care and therapy for years but who later came to believe Terri would never recover. He believes she would not have wanted to be kept alive in this brain-degenerated condition by a surgically implanted tube. He is apparently willing to continue his fight to achieve what he believes Terri would want despite ridicule, hatred, expense, and threats.

Some believe that removing Terri's feeding tube would cause her pain and is inhumane (I'm no doctor, but the medical information I've seen on this subject uniformly says the opposite.)

Death Process From Withdrawal of Feed Tube

Patients who do not have mental cognition to have a sense of thirst or hunger will not be uncomfortable.

For patients in a persistent vegetative state, there may be no discernible change in their movements.

I'm interested in hearing some hard evidence of how Terri's husband is a meanypooface instead of vague argumentum ad hominems.

If you allow parents to override a spouse's decision, what other rights will we let over-zealous parents take away from their married children?


What is the point of keeping her alive?
Most doctors agree there is no chance for her to recover and therapy will not work. It's selfish to keep her alive just because you can't let go. When your dog gets old- has trouble walking, eating, cleaning himself- you will do the kind thing and have him put to sleep. I'm in no way comparing Terri to an old dog; but, if you love someone, letting them suffer needlessly is cruel.

I can't imagine spending the rest of my life confined to a small bed, unable to communicate, and kept alive only by machines. Recovering after my back surgeries was hell enough for me, unable to move around to take care of myself and stuck in bed for weeks. I couldn't imagine years of it. If my soul was trapped there; in my body, in that bed, in that room... it would surely have withered away long ago.

 

[Melody]

A nuisance to a faithless husband grown tired of the toll on his new love interest and depleting bank account — an account that was inflated only because a jury, in 1992, awarded him over a million dollars, mostly as a trust to pay for Terri’s continued care, in a medical malpractice verdict.

Doesn't wash. A divorce would solve both the toll on his new family and bank account. Accepting the $1 million or $10 million that he was offered to give up custody, would also have solved both the toll on his family and bank account.

She is alive and, periodically, both alert and responsive.

According to the medical reports she is not responsive. These "responses" are just autonomic reflexes and do not indicate that she has any brain capacity to attempt communication or even have awareness of her surroundings.

Her parents love her and want to care for her. Imagine if you had a child who was defenseless, dependent, and vulnerable — many of us, indeed, need not imagine — and the state told you not only to step aside but that you had to watch, helpless, while it took two weeks to kill her.

If this was a "child", then I would agree with you that it is the parent's decision. However, this is a married adult and outside the legal guardianship of her parents. As a married adult, and without a living will, it falls within her husband's jurisdiction to make these decisions unless proof can be found that the husband has less than pure motives....which apparently has not happened despite the emotional rhetoric of the opposition.

By court-ordered torture over the wrenching pleas of parents ready and willing to care for her?

Using inflammatory words such as "torture" does not help promote your case...particularly when the medical community is saying there won't be any pain for a variety of reasons.

 

[Melody]

So this weeks sinister motive is 'advancing the cause of the left'?

Oh, and Maize, I'll answer that question for you. She'll be allowed to die after her parents are dead, unless it suits someone's agenda to keep her alive a little longer.

It won't take that long. She'll be allowed to die when the funds to keep her alive run out.

 

[Ceridwen018]

People, there is a difference between someone who is living as a vegetable, and someone who is dying. Terri was dying. Her body had already begun the process of death, and was simply frozen due to the feeding tube. For god's sake people, just let the woman die and let it be. It's always very sad when someone dies, but we need to use our brains here. You can't just keep people around forever.

 

[michel]

People, there is a difference between someone who is living as a vegetable, and someone who is dying. Terri was dying. Her body had already begun the process of death, and was simply frozen due to the feeding tube. For god's sake people, just let the woman die and let it be. It's always very sad when someone dies, but we need to use our brains here. You can't just keep people around forever.

Of course you're completely right Ceridwen. However, just because you are right won't stop those who feel irrationally emotional about this from 'keeping on trying'; and, in a way, you can't blame them.

I have had to the harsh descision of wether to continue keeping an animal alive before now ( and although that was an animal, I can assure you, that, to me, it made no difference), and 'letting it go'. I will never feel 'good' about it's death, but I know it had to die, and I was the only one around who could actually do something about it. And I don't mean physically, I mean emotionally.

A lot of people who will not give up often are reacting, quite subconsciously, for a 'by proxy' emotional need (ie they themselves may well have a fear of death), and the idea of standing by while someone takes the feeding tube out is totally repugnant. There is another point; those who are against the withdrawing of food are, again subconsciously shielding their own consciences.ie if they can say "I was against the withdrawl of the feeding tube", they feel a jolly sight better about themselves and don't have to confront the issue.

 

[BUDDY]

So, I was pretty much up all night researching this particular case. I want to make clear that this thread is in relation to Terri, and not about right to life and right to die arguments in general. I say this because, while I may agree with you on the euthenasia issue on a case by case basis, in Terri's case there are some startling facts that one should consider before making a decision.

http://www.blogsforterri.com/archives/2005/02/a_few_facts_abo.php

Also, I think it is important to look at some facts about her husband that for the most part have been left unreported. The women he is seeing now, he has been with for a very long time (I believe about seven years, they are under a common law marriage and have two children together. As legal guardian, he ended her therapy about seven years ago. This therapy was ordered by the state when Terri was awarded the 1.7 million dollar settlement. Curiously enough, he ended the therapy about the same time he started his relationship with his common law wife. Also, if Michael divorces his wife, he will lose the money awarded to Terri, as it will be used for her continued care by her new guardians, her parents. But, if Terri were to die, he will inherit the balance of the settlement. Also, Mr. Schivo and his lawyer have an injuction against anyone filming or taping Terri. This was put in about three years ago. That is why when you see pictures of Terri on the news, they are not dated any earlier than 2002. It should also be noted that up until Michael ended Terri's rehab, she was making slow, but steady, progress towards walking and talking again.

You can choose not to believe all of these facts if you want, but the bottom line is, Terri is not in a vegetative state, her husband has a new family, and yesterday we started starving an innocent young women that, by all the evidence we have, wants to live. And if you try to tell me that she would have wanted to die, I would ask for some kind of signed document proving such. That is usually what the courts demand.

 

[Ceridwen018]

Terri is not in a vegetative state

At the very most, she is in a vegetative state. Most of her brain is dead, and doctors have declared it so.

 

[Melody]

http://www.blogsforterri.com/archives/2005/02/a_few_facts_abo.php

Also, I think it is important to look at some facts about her husband that for the most part have been left unreported. The women he is seeing now, he has been with for a very long time (I believe about seven years, they are under a common law marriage and have two children together.

First, I would go to a less biased site to look for *facts* about the Schiavo case. Second, he's been with this woman for seven years? So, he waited 8 years before getting on with his life? Admirable...and I'm not being sarcastic.

As legal guardian, he ended her therapy about seven years ago. This therapy was ordered by the state when Terri was awarded the 1.7 million dollar settlement. Curiously enough, he ended the therapy about the same time he started his relationship with his common law wife. Also, if Michael divorces his wife, he will lose the money awarded to Terri, as it will be used for her continued care by her new guardians, her parents. But, if Terri were to die, he will inherit the balance of the settlement.

I read in one report that she has $50,000 left in her estate. *Even* if he still had all of the 1.7 million dollars (which he didn't originally because the lawyers got a large chunk of that), it still doesn't wash. If it was about money, he would've taken the $10 million and handed over custody to the parents.

Also, Mr. Schivo and his lawyer have an injuction against anyone filming or taping Terri. This was put in about three years ago. That is why when you see pictures of Terri on the news, they are not dated any earlier than 2002. It should also be noted that up until Michael ended Terri's rehab, she was making slow, but steady, progress towards walking and talking again.

I've not seen this stated anywhere (the fact that she's making progress in any way) on any site but the one you posted and it is seriously biased.

I think what this case will result in, however, is the awareness that you need a living will to protect yourself from interfering, but well meaning, outsiders.

 

[Saw11_2000]

Well, the debate exists over whether she wants to live or not, and here is where we have to make some inferences.

If Terri truely would like to live in this condition (by previous thought, I know she can't make that decision now), I hope they do overturn the order.

 

[Quoth The Raven]

Also, I think it is important to look at some facts about her husband that for the most part have been left unreported. The women he is seeing now, he has been with for a very long time (I believe about seven years, they are under a common law marriage and have two children together. As legal guardian, he ended her therapy about seven years ago. This therapy was ordered by the state when Terri was awarded the 1.7 million dollar settlement. Curiously enough, he ended the therapy about the same time he started his relationship with his common law wife.

I'm pretty sure J4L found something that stated it was illegal for any person to be denied therapy. That being the case, if Michael Schiavo was in fact illegally denying her therapy then why was there no case regarding this? Surely her parents could have used that as the thin edge of the wedge if there were any substance at all to that allegation. The fact that it wasn't makes me question the validity of the claim.

It should also be noted that up until Michael ended Terri's rehab, she was making slow, but steady, progress towards walking and talking again.

A large part of her brain is gone. It's like taking half the peaches out of a tin, topping up the juice and claiming there's still a full tin...the space is full, but there's no substance to what it's full of. The bits that would make her capable of walking and talking aren't there anymore. There are scans to prove it. Yes, people have woken from vegetative states before, but if you read this it may go some way toward explaining what the difference is in this case:
http://www.sptimes.com/2005/02/25/Tampabay/In_Kansas_recovery__h.shtml

 

[kiwimac]

People,

Seven out of the eight Neurologists who have examined Ms. Schiavo have found her to be in a "presistent vegatative state" a CT of her brain showed "such a profound loss of tissue … that the normal brain cortex has been lost" and replaced by fluids. Electroencephalograms show "a flat tracing" -- no evidence of cerebral activity at all."

[Source]http://www.courier-journal.com/apps/pbcs.d.../503190337

And from the same article


Quote:And Ms. Schiavo's husband, Michael, doesn't appear to be motivated by money, as her parents have accused. The $700,000 he won in a malpractice suit to pay for her care is mostly gone. He has offered to donate what's left to Hospice.

He has been attentive: He went to nursing school to learn to care for her. He took her to California for experimental surgery. He waited eight years after her collapse, when it was clear she wasn't going to improve, to go to court to get her feeding tube removed.

Ms. Schiavo's parents and their Right to Life and Operation Rescue friends point out that for the past few years Mr. Schiavo has lived with a woman, and that they have had two kids. But when all hope for his wife's recovery was gone, was it really so wrong to move on?

Mr. Schiavo visits his wife twice a week, does her laundry, and pays for services most patients in a vegetative state don't get. She is dressed every day, for example, and make-up is put on.


As well


Quote:In Schiavo's case, seven of eight neurologists who physically examined her over time determined that the Pinellas County woman suffered irreversible brain damage after her heart attack 15 years ago, according to Dr. Ron Cranford, a neurologist at the University of Minnesota and one of those who assessed her brain function. He examined Schiavo in 2001, as part of a court-ordered assessment.

"She has no electrical activity in her cerebral cortex on an EEG (electroencephalogram), and a CT (computerized tomography) scan showed massive atrophy in that region," he said. The cerebral cortex, which is the outer layer of the brain, is involved in higher brain functions, such as processing thoughts and storing memories.

"There is no medical dispute," Cranford said. "She is in a primitive vegetative state, and she has been for 15 years."


http://www.floridatoday.com/apps/pbcs.dll/...80350/1006

Terri died 15 years ago. She is showing no sign of higher brain function, indeed her Cortex has dissolved, atrophied, been replaced by fluid. Let her go.

Kiwimac

 

[kiwimac]

Why is Michael Schiavo being demonised?

Well he has the audacity to actually care about his wife's wishes as counterpoised to her parents demands and he has moved on with his life. Oh and BTW, he is not "having an affair." An affair requires a LIVING partner, Terri died fifteen years ago, her soul is long gone, only the shell remains.

Kiwimac

 

[Halcyon]

I find it terrifying that I live in a world that would allow me to exist in such a condition, I hope to God that she, if not brain dead, is totally unconcious. It makes me feel physically sick when i imagine being conscious in such a condition, i haven't made a living will yet because i believe my family would do the right thing, but i'm thinking of writing one now in case some ghoulish protestors or judge succeeds in prolonging what would be a miserable existance.

 

[Valjean]

I think the US' real attitude toward the sanctity of life is best demonstrated by Madelaine Allbright's comment when asked about the 500,000 children dead due to US sanctions against Iraq: "This is a hard choice but we think the price is worth it."

The brouhaha on the Senate floor is pure, self-serving hypocrisy.

 

[jamaesi]

Why is Michael Schiavo being demonised?

I wonder that, too. He's done naught to deserve it.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I find it terrifying that I live in a world that would allow me to exist in such a condition, I hope to God that she, if not brain dead, is totally unconcious. It makes me feel physically sick when i imagine being conscious in such a condition, i haven't made a living will yet because i believe my family would do the right thing, but i'm thinking of writing one now in case some ghoulish protestors or judge succeeds in prolonging what would be a miserable existance.

Yes,
This issue affects all of us. If the courts or Congress establish precedence, then there will be legal reason for further interference from the government and infridgement on civil liberties. I know that it is wrong of me, but the lack of empathy from those in power makes me wish that they will have a similar experience. They are unable to conceptualize the pain that the family is going through.

I know that Terri's parents are fighting for their daughter, but it really looks like they have clouded judgement. Terri's husband has the right, plain and simple. We should have the right to die with dignity.

 

[Doc]

Well I have avoided watching or debating about this for some time, but it has been hard to avoid this past week. I support life and I feel it necessary to look out for the vulnerable of society. But sometimes there comes a point when I feel death is sometimes better than life. This for example. Here is why...

When I was in the 3rd grade, my mom got a call in the middle of the night saying that my Grandfather had become very ill during the night and was rushed to the hospital. My mom then drove the 4 hours in a blizzard hoping that he would be all right. Well, when she got there, he was already passed.

During that frightful morning, my Grandma one of the most painful decisions of her life. She decided not to have him stay alive by machines. (Grandpa would have hated that) He had suffered some terrible blood clot in the brain and a vessel had exploded and left him brain dead. Had she allowed for him to stay alive, it would have caused much more suffering for him, my grandma, and the entire family.

I may be pro-life but I am also Anti-Suffering. Had my grandma not have made that decision, she would have been depressed for the rest of her life watching her husband suffer needlessly day in and day out. She now is married to an old friend from highschool and enjoys travelling.

I just dont think anyone would want to live like that, not my Grandpa, not even Terri Schiavo.

 

[Saw11_2000]

I asked my father, a conservative Christian, and even he says she should be pass on.

 

[michel]

Damn it Doc! - another person on my iOU list of 'must give fruballs to' the mean machine says I've given out too much! It's a difficult subject, and obviously very delicate, and subjective. I do, however agree that in the case of keeping someone who has been proved to be 'brain stem dead' that the switching off of the machine is a kindness to the relatives - the 'patient' can't or won't feel anything; prolonging his or her life seems to have only the purpose of causing more grief for the family. That may sound hard, and un-Christian, but that's my view. I apologise if it upsets anyone.