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Reparation?

Except that those injustices became culturally inbedded and the discrimination institutionalized such that it affected generation after generation. The harm persists.

Changing culture is extremely difficult.

Changing culture seems to have been remarkably effective. It's just that inequities between groups remain even without discrimination.

In England you can still see the legacy of The Norman invasion 1000 years ago.

People with Norman names are richer than those with Anglo-Saxon names.

There is obviously no discrimination against Saxons, but inequities remain after centuries.

This is the problem of simply saying inequities = racism.

Britain would still be under the Yoke of Norman supremicism by this metric and Saxons must demand reparations :D
 

Ella S.

Well-Known Member
I am not in favor of reparations per se, but I am strongly in favor of us putting more funding and effort into public schools in poor areas and also having stricter enforcement against acts of racism and discrimination. The U.S. is the only one of the 20 most industrialized countries that spends less on educating the poor in lower-income districts than on middle and upper-income districts.

Do you mind if I ask for a source for that statistic?
 

MikeF

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Changing culture seems to have been remarkably effective. It's just that inequities between groups remain even without discrimination.

In England you can still see the legacy of The Norman invasion 1000 years ago.

People with Norman names are richer than those with Anglo-Saxon names.

There is obviously no discrimination against Saxons, but inequities remain after centuries.

This is the problem of simply saying inequities = racism.

Britain would still be under the Yoke of Norman supremicism by this metric and Saxons must demand reparations :D

Does that speak to a culture of poverty?
 

Ella S.

Well-Known Member
He's probably right because the cost of education in most communities is paid for by property taxes and properties aren't as valuable in poor areas.

I wouldn't be surprised if the statistics are accurate, but I would prefer to confirm it with a reliable source before accepting the data.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
He calls symbolic actions “laissez-faire reparations” and argues that people who discover they have slave-owning ancestors are morally obliged to campaign for national reparations.

I don't see any benefit or logic in holding people accountable for things their ancestors did decades or centuries ago. I think it's much more reasonable to hold people accountable for their own actions and words. By that logic of guilt by association, should we also demand reparations from ancestors of, say, dictators or imperialist generals?

My country was colonized by the British for 74 years, during which many atrocities and abuse occurred that some of my ancestors personally witnessed and experienced. However, I don't expect the average Briton in 2022 to pay any reparations, nor do I think they're obligated to. Nowadays, most Britons wouldn't support a reenactment of the colonization that happened back then, and they're generally friendly to people from other countries (or so my experience has been, anyway).

Present actions and words matter much more than expecting people to pay reparations for things they had no control over and most likely wouldn't even support now.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
Oh, look - another liberal/progressive white person trying to speak on behalf of other groups of people. It just never ends. They can't help themselves, no matter how offensive and tone-deaf it is. That white savior complex is obviously an addiction of the ego.

Slavery is in the past. I was never a slave and it has nothing to do with us now. I have a job, I don't want your white guilt money. Get over it. This isn't the 19th century or even the 20th century.

Sometimes I feel similarly when a Western liberal tries to speak on behalf of Arabs on, say, "Islamophobia" or immigration. I don't mind if someone uses qualifiers like "many" or "some" to indicate they're speaking about a subset of a specific group, but generalizing about what we want as if we were monolithic or implying that belonging to a specific ethnicity entails having certain views is presumptuous and dismissive of many voices within those communities.
 

AlexanderG

Active Member
I'm reminded of Western allies stating that Ukraine itself should be the body that decides whether Ukraine will surrender to Russia, or what conditions it will set for an end to hostilities.

I think descendants of slaves should be the ones calling the shots on Reparation, and no one else. The rest of us can be supportive and affirming and then get out of their way.

Personally, I'd like to live in a society without structural racism, such that everyone can reach the full potential of their talents and ambitions. But I shouldn't be the one deciding how this is resolved, since as a white person I overwhelmingly benefit from the current unfair system.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
If this policy was successful, why limit it to black communities? Start with the most needy communities regardless of race, and black people should gain disproportionately if the legacy of slavery remains.

Saying poor black people deserve special help, but other poor folk don't is not a recipe for building racial harmony as it builds new sources of resentment. This is even more so if reparations are given to better off black people, while poorer people of other races get nothing.
Well this is my suggestion when the issue of reparations is suggested. My question is why give reparations to only those black people who can be verified to have ancestors who were slaves, and no other black people? No doubt there are people descended from slaves who are very well off and don't need the reparations. So to my mind if reparations are going to be used to solve an ongoing problem related to our history of slavery then use the money to help those who are still suffering from discrimination and segregation.

I understand there are poor communities of other racial backgrounds, but can we suspect their situation is related to racial prejudice? Poverty in the USA has numerous causes, but this topic is focusing on why there are so many black people who don't have access to opportunities like the average white person.
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
I never thought it was historically accurate to suggest that slavery was caused by an entire race of people. It was caused by an ideology and a political/economic system which existed at the time of America's founding and still remains mostly intact to this day (except for a few minor tweaks).

Slavery was perfectly legal, according to the Constitution the slaves were 'property'.
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
Personally, I'd like to live in a society without structural racism, such that everyone can reach the full potential of their talents and ambitions. But I shouldn't be the one deciding how this is resolved, since as a white person I overwhelmingly benefit from the current unfair system.

I think one of the ways the US attempted to address the problem of systemic racism was through 'Affirmative Action', which I think is now being considered unfair to white people and either is or will be eliminated by the Court. It seems the law was considered to be discrimination against whites.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Slavery was perfectly legal, according to the Constitution the slaves were 'property'.

Yes, exactly. It's an ideological position in which property rights are considered sacrosanct. Although the 13th Amendment to the Constitution formally forbade slavery, it was done mainly for economic rather than humanitarian reasons. The same basic ideological principle remains intact today, where the basic human rights of common people are overshadowed by the property rights of big business and the wealthy class.
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
The same basic ideological principle remains intact today, where the basic human rights of common people are overshadowed by the property rights of big business and the wealthy class.

Yet theoretically we have the means by which to change this, yet nothing changes.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I don't see any benefit or logic in holding people accountable for things their ancestors did decades or centuries ago. I think it's much more reasonable to hold people accountable for their own actions and words.

I agree. The main problem is that much of this contradicts the core idea of judging people as individuals, not by their race or nationality. Should individuals be judged according to the color of their skin or by the content of their character?

The embracing of identity politics still had the tendency of classifying and categorizing people into groups, which had the effect causing the narrative and political thought to focus on group identity. Consider terms such as "white privilege" or "black lives matter." Regardless of whether one is offended by the terms or convinced that the arguments behind them are sound, the net effect is that it puts in people's minds that there are two groups of people, "white" and "black," which still carries meaning and significance in today's society. (There are, of course, other groups and group identities, but I'm just using this as an example.)

If society considers it morally just to identify on the basis of group membership in a race, then that's what we will have. The problem with Affirmative Action isn't really that it was unfair or racist towards white people (which it really wasn't), but the deeper issue is that it still creates in people's minds a sense of racial group identity which leads to even greater consequences.

That's the real problem, as I have observed it over the course of my life. I remember many years ago, there was a case where a white college student observed that there was a black students association on her campus. So, she thought, "Why not form a white students association? If they can do it, we can do it, right?" Well, she ended up finding out just how wrong she was and faced quite a backlash. Of course, we all know the standard arguments used to justify one but not the other (which are similar to the arguments used to support Affirmative Action), and perhaps they may be valid, albeit overused and stale at this point. But it still perpetuates a sense of group identity which remains the major part of the problem we face.

By that logic of guilt by association, should we also demand reparations from ancestors of, say, dictators or imperialist generals?

I think you must mean "descendants" instead of "ancestors." But this does raise an interesting point. Should the leadership of a country be held less responsible than the people as a whole? I always thought it was rather shady that the Allies after WW1 decided to demand reparation from the German people, while letting the Kaiser off the hook and allowing him to live out his life in exile in the Netherlands.

On that note, perhaps all of the royal families of Europe should give up their wealth and property and to go work at McDonald's. Let's see if they're willing to do that first.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Yet theoretically we have the means by which to change this, yet nothing changes.

It's a familiar pattern throughout history. Governments and leaders rarely change until they're on the precipice or there's a threat of upheaval. And by then, it's usually too late.
 

AlexanderG

Active Member
I think one of the ways the US attempted to address the problem of systemic racism was through 'Affirmative Action', which I think is now being considered unfair to white people and either is or will be eliminated by the Court. It seems the law was considered to be discrimination against whites.

That's why I said "overwhelmingly" benefit. There have been studies showing that resumes are more likely to be rejected if they have a "non Caucasian" name, that infant mortality rates are halved if a black mother has a black doctor during childbirth, compared to a white doctor, that black people are more likely to be searched and arrested by police and receive longer sentences for the same crimes compared to white people, toxic industries are more likely to be built in black neighborhoods, etc etc etc etc. That is on top of black people being excluded from bank loans, the Homestead Act, and other basic social benefits, just in living memory.

You can point to maybe being 5% less likely to be admitted to a particular college as discrimination against white people, but I think you'll have a hard time pointing to much else, and nothing on the level of the structural issues non-white people have faced for centuries. There's really no comparison, and to argue from a position of white grievance is extremely sketchy.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Do you mind if I ask for a source for that statistic?
I really can't remember but I did not make it up. I'll google it and see if I can find it.


Added: This wasn't exactly what I was looking for but it gets the general message across:
The education system in the United States is one of the most unequal systems in the developed world. Students are presented with extremely different options, which vary according to their family’s social status. Compared with the rest of the member countries of the OECD (the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development), an American child born into a low-income family has less chance of accessing a better standard of university education than a child born into a middle-class family in, for example, a European country.

Students coming from upper-class families have the means to access high-quality resources to prepare them for college, a significant advantage for ensuring success in the university admissions process. Therefore, it is not surprising that only 10% of students attending the best 146 US universities come from lower- or middle-class backgrounds...
-- Access to Education in the United States = Inequality - Humanium
 
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pearl

Well-Known Member
Personally, while I approve the concept of reparation, I do not think it feasible to reach all descendants of slaves today, identifying who to compensate and by how much. Actually, I don't believe slavery has ended, as discrimination is just another form determining where one may live, work, shop. If seeking a loan from a bank one's address is considered, 'wrong side of the tracks', due to housing discrimination, all of which is illegal, but persists. Fortunately, I live on the 'right side of the tracks'. Within a short distance I have 5 large supermarkets, several pharmacies, etc. In neighborhoods with large black population mostly convivence stores not exactly offering a healthy diet.
We give ourselves a pat on the back as we remove statues, rename historical sites in an effort to erase the lasting symbols of national slavery, but these actions are purely symbolic.

As for collective guilt for white descendants who prospered from owning slaves, sort of visiting the sins of the father on the son. However, "American slave-produced cotton came to dominate the global economy, Berry said. American cotton was, by the 1850s, as essential to global markets as oil is today. And, because of the nation’s slave workforce, entire industries developed in ways that created jobs open only to whites, allowing some white Americans to make economic gains."
As McConnell's family shows, the legacy of slavery persists in most American lives (nbcnews.com)

We cannot change the past, but we certainly have the ability to acknowledge present injustices and the desire to act for change within our own circumstances.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Exactly. The time for reparations was right when the slaves were freed, to give to the people who were actually slaves. But now it's many generations in the past.
Right . It would apply to a specific population of people for which the reparations were intended, to which limits the scope to a set population and not an expansion of additional people afterwards.

If anything it would be best served to see any unpaid reparations in the form of localized community benefits and not individual.
 
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