Repenting after death

[1137]

And you're welcome to think that. From all my dealings with her on the forum, I'm inclined to disagree.

Fair enough!

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Because we are all capable of recognizing Truth and having faith.

Not to start a debate: If that is true, why does the majority of the world (percent of Christians compared to percent of all others) not recognize this Truth?

 

[JayJayDee]

Go rant to someone else. I'm very close to putting you on ignore since you're not interested in having real discussions, but only in belittling and attacking beliefs that differ from yours. You go ahead and believe whatever the Watchtower tells you and I'll continue not to care, since there's no point in talking to you anyway.

I am interested in having real discussions SF...but you just cant seem to handle anyone disagreeing with your church. I am showing you what the Bible says, not what the WT teaches. As a Catholic (again,) aren't you interested in what God's word says? Do you believe that your church is founded on the teachings of Jesus Christ and his apostles? This is what I am showing you, yet you prefer the imaginings of men over the word of God....why?

The Catholic explanations you cited are unsubstantiated nonsense and yet you tell me that I am the one with the problem?

If it makes you feel better to ignore me then go ahead. :ignore: Can't say I didn't try.

 

[JayJayDee]

Not to start a debate: If that is true, why does the majority of the world (percent of Christians compared to percent of all others) not recognize this Truth?

Matthew 24:36-39 Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)36 “Now concerning that day and hour no one knows—neither the angels in heaven, nor the Son —except the Father only. 37 As the days of Noah were, so the coming of the Son of Man will be. 38 For in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah boarded the ark. 39 They didn’t know until the flood came and swept them all away. So this is the way the coming of the Son of Man will be."

It isn't for the want of trying. The truth is out there, but most people reject it. Most are putting their faith in the wrong place.

 

[Pegg]

Where did people who died before Christ go? | Catholic Answers

What do you make of this declaration by the Apostle Peter?

Acts 2:29 “Men, brothers, it is permissible to speak with freeness of speech to you about the family head David, that he died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 Because he was a prophet and knew that God had sworn to him with an oath that he would seat one of his offspring on his throne, 31 he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that neither was he forsaken in the Grave nor did his flesh see corruption. 32 God resurrected this Jesus, and of this we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore, because he was exalted to the right hand of God and received the promised holy spirit from the Father, he has poured out what you see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend to the heavens, but he himself says, ‘Jehovah said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand 35 until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.”’


Peter made this statement after Christ had been risen from the dead, and according to this, King David was still asleep in his grave "to this day"

Now if the Catholic church teaching is accurate, then why would Peter say that David was still in his grave and had not ascended to the heavens?

 

[Awkward Fingers]

In general, we are. If you're able to think and reason, you are able to find Truth.

And yet, SOMEHOW, all the threads that say they can easily show god exists, last hundreds of pages, and never make it anywhere.
...weird.

If your statement is true, I don't even understand how that could happen.

Perhaps you could link me to a post that simply and easily shows this simple truth, maybe I've missed it.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

And yet, SOMEHOW, all the threads that say they can easily show god exists, last hundreds of pages, and never make it anywhere.
...weird.

If your statement is true, I don't even understand how that could happen.

Perhaps you could link me to a post that simply and easily shows this simple truth, maybe I've missed it.

Thanks in advance.

This is a DIR. We're not supposed to be debating in here (although some of the Christians like to ignore that rule and continuously bicker with other, which is annoying).

 

[Awkward Fingers]

This is a DIR. We're not supposed to be debating in here (although some of the Christians like to ignore that rule and continuously bicker with other, which is annoying).

Oop!
Was using the "show updated since last visit"button, and forgot to double check which section thus was in.

My apologies, I'll save it for the correct area.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Oop!
Was using the "show updated since last visit"button, and forgot to double check which section thus was in.

My apologies, I'll save it for the correct area.

No worries. We all make that mistake at times.

 

[1137]

This is a DIR. We're not supposed to be debating in here (although some of the Christians like to ignore that rule and continuously bicker with other, which is annoying).

It's still an interesting point. You made a claim, he asked for support. As a green DIR I think he's in the clear.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

What do you make of this declaration by the Apostle Peter?

Acts 2:29 “Men, brothers, it is permissible to speak with freeness of speech to you about the family head David, that he died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 Because he was a prophet and knew that God had sworn to him with an oath that he would seat one of his offspring on his throne, 31 he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that neither was he forsaken in the Grave nor did his flesh see corruption. 32 God resurrected this Jesus, and of this we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore, because he was exalted to the right hand of God and received the promised holy spirit from the Father, he has poured out what you see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend to the heavens, but he himself says, ‘Jehovah said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand 35 until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.”’


Peter made this statement after Christ had been risen from the dead, and according to this, King David was still asleep in his grave "to this day"

Now if the Catholic church teaching is accurate, then why would Peter say that David was still in his grave and had not ascended to the heavens?

Those verses have nothing to do with David's soul. You've completely misinterpreted them and pulled them out of context. The full passage is this:

22 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs which God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know— 23 this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. 24 But God raised him up, having loosed the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it. 25 For David says concerning him,

‘I saw the Lord always before me,
for he is at my right hand that I may not be shaken;
26 therefore my heart was glad, and my tongue rejoiced;
moreover my flesh will dwell in hope.
27 For thou wilt not abandon my soul to Hades,
nor let thy Holy One see corruption.
28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life;
thou wilt make me full of gladness with thy presence.’
​

29 “Brethren, I may say to you confidently of the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants upon his throne, 31 he foresaw and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses. 33 Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this which you see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend into the heavens; but he himself says,

‘The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at my right hand,
35 till I make thy enemies a stool for thy feet.’
​

36 Let all the house of Israel therefore know assuredly that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.”

Peter was speaking a Jewish audience and telling them that Jesus is the one that David was speaking of in the prophecy. Peter is saying that it was Jesus Who was crucified, resurrected and ascended to Heaven. The "to this day" part says "his tomb is with us to this day", not "he is still asleep in his grave to this day"! You made that up, apparently. All it means is that David is not the One Who has resurrected bodily and ascended to Heaven.

It bewilders me that you completely missed the point of that, when it's so obvious.

 

[Pegg]

Those verses have nothing to do with David's soul. You've completely misinterpreted them and pulled them out of context. The full passage is this:

22 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs which God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know— 23 this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. 24 But God raised him up, having loosed the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it. 25 For David says concerning him,

‘I saw the Lord always before me,
for he is at my right hand that I may not be shaken;
26 therefore my heart was glad, and my tongue rejoiced;
moreover my flesh will dwell in hope.
27 For thou wilt not abandon my soul to Hades,
nor let thy Holy One see corruption.
28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life;
thou wilt make me full of gladness with thy presence.’
​

29 “Brethren, I may say to you confidently of the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants upon his throne, 31 he foresaw and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses. 33 Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this which you see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend into the heavens; but he himself says,

‘The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at my right hand,
35 till I make thy enemies a stool for thy feet.’
​

36 Let all the house of Israel therefore know assuredly that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.”

Peter was speaking a Jewish audience and telling them that Jesus is the one that David was speaking of in the prophecy. Peter is saying that it was Jesus Who was crucified, resurrected and ascended to Heaven. The "to this day" part says "his tomb is with us to this day", not "he is still asleep in his grave to this day"! You made that up, apparently. All it means is that David is not the One Who has resurrected bodily and ascended to Heaven.

It bewilders me that you completely missed the point of that, when it's so obvious.

is there any reason why David would not have ascended to heaven?
Dont all good people go to heaven when they die???

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

is there any reason why David would not have ascended to heaven?
Dont all good people go to heaven when they die???

It was talking about Jesus' ascension to Heaven 40 days after the resurrection. It was not talking about people's souls going to Heaven after they die. That particular passage says nothing about where David's soul was.

 

[Shiranui117]

is there any reason why David would not have ascended to heaven?
Dont all good people go to heaven when they die???

No one experiences the fullness of Heaven until after the Resurrection and Last Judgement. David went down into Sheol after he died, along with everyone before him. Christ later descended into Sheol and freed the souls held captive there.

 

[Pegg]

It was talking about Jesus' ascension to Heaven 40 days after the resurrection. It was not talking about people's souls going to Heaven after they die. That particular passage says nothing about where David's soul was.

well one thing we do know, he certainly wasnt in heaven.

And if King David, a man chosen by God and who was deeply loved by God, did not go to heaven, then why not?

Don't you think it may be the same with other people too?

 

[Pegg]

No one experiences the fullness of Heaven until after the Resurrection and Last Judgement. David went down into Sheol after he died, along with everyone before him. Christ later descended into Sheol and freed the souls held captive there.

'sheol' is often translated as 'hell' in the bible.

What is the church teaching about hell?

 

[Glaurung]

After death, before judgment, will there be one last chance to repent? Say I logically conclude that there is no god or that paganism is true. I live my life in "sin" due to this. Then I die and I see the truth of god. I realize my ignorance (I'm only human, and god made me such) and am truly sorry for my apparently flawed reason. I see the truth of God / Christ and want to accept it. Will I get the chance? Or is it too late, requiring faith before death as opposed to the empirical evidence received at judgment?

No one can know what occurs between a soul and God. Nonetheless, there have been some Catholic visionaries who have indicated that at the very point of death every single person will be supernaturally given one final moment in which they will see the truth much more clearly, and thus will have the opportunity to accept Christ's mercy once and for all. This is not something to bet on, but due to my belief in God's infinite magnanimity I wouldn't be surprised if God does grant us this final generosity.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

No one can know what occurs between a soul and God. Nonetheless, there have been some Catholic visionaries who have indicated that at the very point of death every single person will be supernaturally given one final moment in which they will see the truth much more clearly, and thus will have the opportunity to accept Christ's mercy once and for all. This is not something to bet on, but due to my belief in God's infinite magnanimity I wouldn't be surprised if God does grant us this final generosity.

I hope that is true.

 

[JayJayDee]

No one can know what occurs between a soul and God.

Do you know what the Bible's definition of a soul is?
It is a living, breathing creature. Never is a soul spoken of as disembodied.

Did you know that the soul is not immortal? (Ezekiel 18:4) Souls die.

The words "immortal" and "soul" do not appear side by side in one single passage of scripture.

Nonetheless, there have been some Catholic visionaries who have indicated that at the very point of death every single person will be supernaturally given one final moment in which they will see the truth much more clearly, and thus will have the opportunity to accept Christ's mercy once and for all. This is not something to bet on, but due to my belief in God's infinite magnanimity I wouldn't be surprised if God does grant us this final generosity.

That is a nice thought Tlaloc......but how does Matt 7:21-23 factor into those Catholic visions?

When Jesus spoke about the "sheep and the goats"' I did not see any "one last chance" scenario mentioned there.....do you? (Matt 25:31-46)

 

[Katzpur]

After death, before judgment, will there be one last chance to repent? Say I logically conclude that there is no god or that paganism is true. I live my life in "sin" due to this. Then I die and I see the truth of god. I realize my ignorance (I'm only human, and god made me such) and am truly sorry for my apparently flawed reason. I see the truth of God / Christ and want to accept it. Will I get the chance? Or is it too late, requiring faith before death as opposed to the empirical evidence received at judgment?

According to my religion, yes, you will be given another chance to repent after death. Of course, if you sincerely know right now that there is a God and that He sent His Son to Earth to pay the price for your sins, I don't know that you'd make a different choice when given a second chance. On the other hand, if you genuinely believe that "there is no god or that paganism is true," I believe there will be a time after your death but before you stand before God to be judged when you will come to realize that you were wrong and when you will be able to repent and accept the gift that Jesus Christ is offering you.