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Republican Ron Paul and Media Ignorance

T-Dawg

Self-appointed Lunatic
Hmm, this thread drove me to do a token amount of research on Ron Paul, and it turns out he is even worse than I thought:

The Founding Fathers envisioned a robustly Christian yet religiously tolerant America, with churches serving as vital institutions that would eclipse the state in importance...
Questions for Supporters to Ask Ron Paul-Part V « The Politiconomist
War on Christmas Ron Paul | War against Religion
Ron Paul - RationalWiki



Assuming this quote I've found referenced in multiple sources isn't completely and utterly forged, this makes him just as evil, if not more so, than every other person in congress. He explicitly wants to replace the State - the closest existing thing to a deity that the People have - with an institution that considers the God of the Bible to be worthy of worship. In essence, he is exactly the opposite of what I (and hopefully others) want leading our country.
 

DandyAndy

Active Member
Teachers can decide best since they're actually trained in both the subjects and the methods of teaching, but at the moment city and district offices are filled with politicians, businessmen, and lunatic parents anyway...

And are teachers currently allowed to decide or are they forced to follow strict guidelines handed to them in the form of curriculums and plans designed not to challenge and educate the children about a variety of topics, regional issues or history, but rather to prep them to pass a meaningless, standardized exam designed to show how 'well educated' the kids are?

I mean no disrespect to those less intelligent, this is just the way it is, but when a classroom is filled with a mixture of students with different intelligent levels, won't a standardized test written with the SOLE purpose of producing numbers showing that 'our children are being educated real good' pander to the dumbest of the dumb and leave the smart kids bored and unchallenged?

Teachers are forced to produce 'good standardized test scores' rather than bright, intelligent and hard-working kids - the teachers jobs depend on it, again, because someone in a department far away decided so.
 

DandyAndy

Active Member
Hmm, this thread drove me to do a token amount of research on Ron Paul, and it turns out he is even worse than I thought:


Questions for Supporters to Ask Ron Paul-Part V « The Politiconomist
War on Christmas Ron Paul | War against Religion
Ron Paul - RationalWiki



Assuming this quote I've found referenced in multiple sources isn't completely and utterly forged, this makes him just as evil, if not more so, than every other person in congress. He explicitly wants to replace the State - the closest existing thing to a deity that the People have - with an institution that considers the God of the Bible to be worthy of worship. In essence, he is exactly the opposite of what I (and hopefully others) want leading our country.

What is so bad about a country founded and run based upon a Christian moral system - many of these morals shared by other religions and common sense such as don't murder, don't steal, don't lie and whatnot - that, just like GOD Himself, still allows for the freedom of the individual? These laws based upon 'Christian morality' only kick in when you violate the freedom and liberty of another (like when you kill them or steal their stuff).

That sounds like a good idea to me.
 

Skorzeny

Member
Hmm, this thread drove me to do a token amount of research on Ron Paul, and it turns out he is even worse than I thought:


Questions for Supporters to Ask Ron Paul-Part V « The Politiconomist
War on Christmas Ron Paul | War against Religion
Ron Paul - RationalWiki



Assuming this quote I've found referenced in multiple sources isn't completely and utterly forged, this makes him just as evil, if not more so, than every other person in congress. He explicitly wants to replace the State - the closest existing thing to a deity that the People have - with an institution that considers the God of the Bible to be worthy of worship. In essence, he is exactly the opposite of what I (and hopefully others) want leading our country.

To me, religious belief is irrelevant. It is how the person applies their beliefs and translates them into political attitudes. So what if he takes his faith seriously? He would make a better President than any of the other candidates and Obama. Why? Because of how he applies personal attitudes without forging theocracy like Santorum is (plus psychopathy).
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
Assuming this quote I've found referenced in multiple sources isn't completely and utterly forged, this makes him just as evil, if not more so, than every other person in congress. He explicitly wants to replace the State - the closest existing thing to a deity that the People have - with an institution that considers the God of the Bible to be worthy of worship. In essence, he is exactly the opposite of what I (and hopefully others) want leading our country.
It took awhile, T-Dawg, but finally it appears there is something we agree on. Don't even get me going about Paul's delusion idea of foreign policy. That said, I'm not especially comfortable with the idea of President Alex Jones... errr, oopsie, Ron Paul.
 

Skorzeny

Member
It took awhile, T-Dawg, but finally it appears there is something we agree on. Don't even get me going about Paul's delusion idea of foreign policy.

I was wondering when his most controversial attitude was going to come up.

Please explain why it is you disagree with his foreign policy.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
I was wondering when his most controversial attitude was going to come up.

Please explain why it is you disagree with his foreign policy.
Any discussion of his views would add credibility to said views. I'm not inclined to give him that much attention. Feel free to dazzle us though. :rolleyes:
 

Skorzeny

Member
Any discussion of his views would add credibility to said views. I'm not inclined to give him that much attention. Feel free to dazzle us though. :rolleyes:

So, you're mouthing off at the foreign policy because you've never bothered to examine it?

[youtube]jFZpL8F4FgU[/youtube]

He is basically saying that as a major part of cutting spending he would end unjustified warfare, like the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq. Those wars are unwinnable, and they have cost unimaginable amounts of money for the American military to maintain them. However, this does not mean he is anti-war. It means he is anti-stupidity and anti-overspending. He is all about preventing international terrorism and defending American borders from attack, as well as maintaining a major role in NATO. He also will not allow the USA to become a push-over in the eyes of rapidly developing countries like China, India and to a lesser extent Brazil. He believes that ending the 'world-police' image the USA has been maintaining since the Cold War is the key to healing the economy, and when you take in the fact that there are no negative effects on the average American's way-of-life inherent in such a process, this is something you should be encouraging too.

He also promotes the sovereignty of Israel. What makes this okay is the fact that Israeli leaders agree with him - they don't want the U.S.' military support around any-more. They can defend themselves.
 

Shermana

Heretic
That's right, Netanyahu has said "We don't need American troops".

What Israel needs is a free hand to do what it wants without any strings attached, and it seems Gingrich and Romney, for all the nice words they say, want Strings attached.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Anonymous Hacks Neo-Nazis and Finds Many Current Ron Paul Connections
After reading the article, scroll down to read the official Anonymous report.
My security software is blocking this site.

Anyone who wants to believe that he secretly leads an underground Nazi group or puppy eating club will find someone out there providing
'evidence'. I'll evaluate him by what platforms he espouses, his voting record, & I'll look for telltale signs of puppy fur on his necktie.

It very much reminds me of the claims that Obama is a Muslim & a Kenyan. I can't verify or disprove scraps of suggestive evidence
cropping up here or there. But even if he were a ferriner, I would judge him by he actually does in office. That's what matters.

Btw, I have areas where I disagree with Paul. Criminy, I disagree with every politician who ever ran for office. But some less so than others.
If I ran for office (Heaven forbid), I'd disagree with myself. I'm even bigoted in some areas.
 
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T-Dawg

Self-appointed Lunatic
What is so bad about a country founded and run based upon a Christian moral system - many of these morals shared by other religions and common sense such as don't murder, don't steal, don't lie and whatnot - that, just like GOD Himself, still allows for the freedom of the individual? These laws based upon 'Christian morality' only kick in when you violate the freedom and liberty of another (like when you kill them or steal their stuff).

That sounds like a good idea to me.

You're forgetting that Christian morals are not founded on actual morals, or even what Jesus taught - they're founded on being like God.
This means campaigns of genocide (like the genocide of Canaan), misogyny (ie, women were forced to marry their rapists, could be executed if their husband was suspicious that she was not a virgin on their wedding night, and in general were thought of as lesser beings), hypocrisy (God violates or contradicts most of his rules at some point, especially the command not to murder), infanticide (rebellious children were stoned), slavery (the Bible gives clear instructions on how to maintain slaves), racism (certain ethnic groups were explicitly never allowed in the Temple, no matter how many generations they had been integrated into Hebrew society), and those sorts of things.
I'm a bit rusty on sources, since I tend to memorize stories as opposed to verse numbers, but I'm pretty sure can find each and every one of these with a little searching, if anyone's interested.

To me, religious belief is irrelevant. It is how the person applies their beliefs and translates them into political attitudes. So what if he takes his faith seriously? He would make a better President than any of the other candidates and Obama. Why? Because of how he applies personal attitudes without forging theocracy like Santorum is (plus psychopathy).

Well, Ron Paul wants to give control of social issues over to the state governments (rather than the federal government), which, coincidentally, would be great for the religious right in most states.

It took awhile, T-Dawg, but finally it appears there is something we agree on. Don't even get me going about Paul's delusion idea of foreign policy. That said, I'm not especially comfortable with the idea of President Alex Jones... errr, oopsie, Ron Paul.

You are one of the last people I expected to agree with me on the divine nature of the State. :eek:
(Or was it Christianity being evil that you were agreeing with me on?)
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Well, Ron Paul wants to give control of social issues over to the state governments (rather than the federal government), which, coincidentally, would be great for the religious right in most states.
This is more a matter of how he sees power granted the states by the Constitution.
I agree with him about this, but I don't share his faith in Xianity.
It would be nice if he were a heathen, but there ain't nobody who's perfect.
I think Paul would be great for heathens too.
But it's all moot.....he scares normal people, who can't stomach overly anti-war, pro-drug, limited government, free speech types.
 
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Mathematician

Reason, and reason again
This is more a matter of how he sees power granted the states by the Constitution.
I agree with him about this, but I don't share his faith in Xianity.
It would be nice if he were a heathen, but there ain't nobody who's perfect.
I think Paul would be great for heathens too.
But it's all moot.....he scares normal people, who can't stomach overly anti-war, pro-drug, limited government, free speech types.

It's a dead argument. Ever since the Civil War, the Constitution has been used to ascribe basic rights to citizens that the states can't supersede. Try arguing "states rights" to African Americans when it was federal courts, the national guard, and the federal government in general that triumphed over Jim Crow.

And his inability to answer what the stance of government should be towards dying children who can't secure private money or insurance is telling. He's not willing to admit to himself that raw capitalism allows for misery.

It very much reminds me of the claims that Obama is a Muslim & a Kenyan. I can't verify or disprove scraps of suggestive evidence

That's a false comparison. If Obama published political journals and had pro-terrorist articles under his name which he referenced during interviews, he'd have to address them. Furthermore Ron Paul has associated with Neo-Nazi and white supremacists. Why should minority voters not fear this man if that's who he associates with? Questions emerge about who he's going to associate with in the White House.
 
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Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
It's a dead argument. Ever since the Civil War, the Constitution has been used to ascribe basic rights to citizens that the states can't supersede. Try arguing "states rights" to African Americans when it was federal courts, the national guard, and the federal government in general that triumphed over Jim Crow.
It's more complicated than that.
The incorporation doctrine requires that states honor some constitutional liberties, but doesn't waive states rights in other areas.
If the Fed Gov tries to grab power explicitly granted to states by the Constitution, then I'd say it's proper to oppose this. We can
amend it if necessary.

And his inability to answer what the stance of government should be towards dying children who can't secure private money or insurance is telling.
I've never noticed that he was unable to answer a question.
Elaborate, please.
 

Drolefille

PolyPanGeekGirl
I'm against Ron Paul:
Civil Rights:
Wants to allow states to ban flag burning
Thinks people who are sexually harassed should just quit their jobs
Continues to support DOMA while being super wishy-washy on same-sex marriage - he's not exactly supporting a bill to remove marriage from any federal recognition so inconsistencies abound. In fact, he's basically avoided sounding like he might even think about supporting it recently, even in Iowa, where you'd think he'd be supporting the state's decision.
Sponsors the Marriage Protection Act to prevent the courts from hearing cases on DOMA to "protect marriage"
Only opposed the Federal Marriage Amendment because he thought the liberals would use it against them, not because he disagreed with it.
Supported DADT until 2010 - too little, too late when combined with everything else.
Essentially supports allowing states to define their own civil rights- which is a flat out no go for me. If he was universally libertarian in supporting everyone's rights to do what they wish, that's one thing. But in general he just wants the federal government out of it, which means that when a state is violating someone's rights, they have no more recourse.


Abortion:
Wants to federally define life as beginning at conception - inconsistent with 'states rights'
Wants to allow states to ban abortion - consistent with 'states rights', inconsistent with my right to control my own body.
Opposes Roe vs. Wade

Other:
Wanted to abolish public schools in the 80s and 90s
Wants to get rid of federal financial aid.
Opposes universal health care - or any government health care
Opposes requiring physicians to treat ER patients without concern for ability to pay.
Opposes the 14th amendment
Supports the gold standard
Supports a national sales tax as a 'fairer' way to get income

As for the racist newsletters - he's indicated previously that he was aware of them, although he didn't write them, and frankly you sign your name off on it and you're responsible. You make the money on it after all... Whether he's a a racist or a man who decided he'd make more money pandering to racists, he's a no go for me either way.

Assuming that lack of discussion means lack of knowledge is limiting. Assuming that people who disagree are lacking the knowledge as well is foolish.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I'm against Ron Paul:
Civil Rights:
Wants to allow states to ban flag burning
Thinks people who are sexually harassed should just quit their jobs
Continues to support DOMA while being super wishy-washy on same-sex marriage - he's not exactly supporting a bill to remove marriage from any federal recognition so inconsistencies abound. In fact, he's basically avoided sounding like he might even think about supporting it recently, even in Iowa, where you'd think he'd be supporting the state's decision.
Sponsors the Marriage Protection Act to prevent the courts from hearing cases on DOMA to "protect marriage"
Only opposed the Federal Marriage Amendment because he thought the liberals would use it against them, not because he disagreed with it.
Supported DADT until 2010 - too little, too late when combined with everything else.
Essentially supports allowing states to define their own civil rights- which is a flat out no go for me. If he was universally libertarian in supporting everyone's rights to do what they wish, that's one thing. But in general he just wants the federal government out of it, which means that when a state is violating someone's rights, they have no more recourse.


Abortion:
Wants to federally define life as beginning at conception - inconsistent with 'states rights'
Wants to allow states to ban abortion - consistent with 'states rights', inconsistent with my right to control my own body.
Opposes Roe vs. Wade

Other:
Wanted to abolish public schools in the 80s and 90s
Wants to get rid of federal financial aid.
Opposes universal health care - or any government health care
Opposes requiring physicians to treat ER patients without concern for ability to pay.
Opposes the 14th amendment
Supports the gold standard
Supports a national sales tax as a 'fairer' way to get income

As for the racist newsletters - he's indicated previously that he was aware of them, although he didn't write them, and frankly you sign your name off on it and you're responsible. You make the money on it after all... Whether he's a a racist or a man who decided he'd make more money pandering to racists, he's a no go for me either way.
Those are all nominally valid reasons for your wanting to oppose him.
But some of them deserve background.
A few:
- I've never seen him oppose the 14th Amendment, yet you say he does. On what basis?
- Since Paul favors the right to burn the flag, please explain.
- Regarding DADT, he was more liberal than the law, since he favored only discharging soldiers whose behavior was disruptive, both hetero & homo.
Moreover, he took action to repeal DADT (as a rep in Congress) when Obama had the power to do so (de facto) but declined.

I wonder if perhaps you agree with him on more issues than you think.
- He's one of the few pols to take a stand against the military draft, which is also an issue about controlling one's body.

There are many areas where I disagree with him too, btw.
 
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Drolefille

PolyPanGeekGirl
Those are all nominally valid reasons for your wanting to oppose him.
But some of them deserve background.
A few:
- I've never seen him oppose the 14th Amendment, yet you say he does. On what basis?
He objects to the children of illegal immigrants being citizens. He wants to amend the constitution to change this.

- Since Paul favors the right to burn the flag, please explain.
No, he opposes the feds banning it but supports the states banning it. (He called it desecration and obviously doesn't consider it as speech protected by the constitution if it's not a federal issue.)
Bill Text - 105th Congress (1997-1998) - THOMAS (Library of Congress)
- Regarding DADT, he was more liberal than the law, since he favored only discharging soldiers whose behavior was disruptive, both hetero & homo.
And yet said that it was a decent law. That's not really more liberal. To consider DADT good requires seeing the existence of homosexuality as disruptive.

Moreover, he took action to repeal DADT (as a rep in Congress) when Obama had the power to do so (de facto) but declined.
Are you saying when Obama was IN congress or when Obama was president? It had to be repealed by Congress.

I wonder if perhaps you agree with him on more issues than you think.
- He's one of the few pols to take a stand against the military draft, which is also an issue about controlling one's body.
I'm not opposed to a draft inherently. I'm opposed to it being used in a case like Vietnam. I'm opposed to it being only for men. But I can't say that we'll never need it again. I'm not sure we really need SS. I tried to register when I turned 18 FWIW.

I agree with him on some things, but the other stuff, overall, is too important to me. I won't vote for an anti-choice candidate ever, particularly in the face of new laws like virginia's mandated vaginal ultrasounds. It's essentially government mandated rape and I'm done with it.

There are many areas where I disagree with him too, btw.
Fair enough. I objected the tone of the OP who wasn't really talking about media coverage but was singing the praises of the right thinking Ron Paul.

RP is interesting, I appreciate that he bucks his own party in the same way I appreciate it out of the Dems. But he's not magically better and some of his stuff is way out there if only because we're talking about him assuming his interpretation is better than decades to centuries of jurisprudence, legal and scholarly opinions.
 
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DandyAndy

Active Member
You're forgetting that Christian morals are not founded on actual morals, or even what Jesus taught - they're founded on being like God.
This means campaigns of genocide (like the genocide of Canaan), misogyny (ie, women were forced to marry their rapists, could be executed if their husband was suspicious that she was not a virgin on their wedding night, and in general were thought of as lesser beings), hypocrisy (God violates or contradicts most of his rules at some point, especially the command not to murder), infanticide (rebellious children were stoned), slavery (the Bible gives clear instructions on how to maintain slaves), racism (certain ethnic groups were explicitly never allowed in the Temple, no matter how many generations they had been integrated into Hebrew society), and those sorts of things.
I'm a bit rusty on sources, since I tend to memorize stories as opposed to verse numbers, but I'm pretty sure can find each and every one of these with a little searching, if anyone's interested.


I know about most of the instances you are referring to. I just want to point out that everything in the OT you mentioned applied ONLY to the nation/people of Israel because they were ruled by GOD alone in the form of government known as a theocracy. Once the old covenant was ended and the new covenant began, all those rules were more or less null and void.

We could talk about all those laws/rules and why they existed thousands of years ago but that's not the point of this discussion.

You are right to say that the ultimate goal of Christian morality is to be perfect/righteous as GOD is. Isn't perfection a good goal to shoot for?

There are no laws in the beginning of this country about killing homosexuals or not allowing divorce or anything else and there shouldn't be. There weren't when the nation began and there shouldn't be now - we don't need laws created by a government telling us what to do with our personal lives. But we do need laws created to protect our freedoms and liberties.

The 10 commandments were a cornerstone of American morality because they work - you don't murder someone, you don't steal from someone, you don't bear false witness/lie under oath, etc. - personal freedoms and liberties were protected because life and property and religion were sacred to GOD. In America life, property, religion and speech are sacred. You can say what you want and do what you want to a point - and that point is a negative impact on someone else's life, property, religion or speech.

The system of Christian morality laid out by Christ works great for society - and the beauty of new covenant/Christ law/morality is that it applies ONLY TO THOSE THAT CHOOSE TO SUBMIT TO IT. If you are a Christ follower, you have a longer list of rules to follow than the non-believer.

Those that don't believe in Christ or GOD don't have to follow the extra rules - obviously there are consequences for not following those rules or accepting the grace of Christ - but the consequences of those choices aren't felt in this life, only in the ETERNAL life.

So the idea that Christian morality is currently made up of rules and laws that were created to be temporary and exist only in the special circumstance of thousands of years ago like what you listed is a big misunderstanding and shows a sad trend in the understanding of Christianity by believers and non-believers alike.

The Christian morality of the 10 commandments and the new covenant/new testament as explained by Christ and others IS the foundation of our laws and Constitution. The founders didn't transpose the Bible to Bill of Rights and Constitution, but just as the textbooks you read in school help shape your intelligence as an adult, the morality of Christianity shaped the foundation of our country.
 

T-Dawg

Self-appointed Lunatic
I know about most of the instances you are referring to. I just want to point out that everything in the OT you mentioned applied ONLY to the nation/people of Israel because they were ruled by GOD alone in the form of government known as a theocracy. Once the old covenant was ended and the new covenant began, all those rules were more or less null and void.

We could talk about all those laws/rules and why they existed thousands of years ago but that's not the point of this discussion.

You are right to say that the ultimate goal of Christian morality is to be perfect/righteous as GOD is. Isn't perfection a good goal to shoot for?

The thing is, God logically couldn't have changed in the mere thousands of years since all these nasty events - aside from the continued violent behavior in the New Testament (mostly in the book of Revelation, which is notable because Revelation is the only NT book in which God directly communicates and intervenes with the mortal population in a significant way; in every other book, unless I'm having a major memory failure here, God primarily speaks through his "Son" and his followers), it is stated in the Bible that a thousand years is like a day to God. Not only that, but God would have existed for literally an infinite period of time beforehand. Those who believe in the "sacrifice" of Jesus having forgiven all of our sins and God becoming a god of love instead of a god of laws are essentially claiming that in a period of a couple days out of an infinite lifetime, God completely changed his character. It doesn't sound plausible.

There are no laws in the beginning of this country about killing homosexuals or not allowing divorce or anything else and there shouldn't be. There weren't when the nation began and there shouldn't be now - we don't need laws created by a government telling us what to do with our personal lives. But we do need laws created to protect our freedoms and liberties.

The thing is, most Christians (at least those who make Christianity part of their political affiliation, which logically should be all of them, even if it somehow isn't in practice) disagree with you on this; they want the State to essentially be a puppet of the Kingdom of God. And that's terrible.

The 10 commandments were a cornerstone of American morality because they work - you don't murder someone, you don't steal from someone, you don't bear false witness/lie under oath, etc. - personal freedoms and liberties were protected because life and property and religion were sacred to GOD. In America life, property, religion and speech are sacred. You can say what you want and do what you want to a point - and that point is a negative impact on someone else's life, property, religion or speech.

Except that you're leaving out the commandments that aren't the cornerstone of American morality - namely, the remaining seven of them have no basis in law (and at least three are explicitly opposed to the Constitution), and aren't universally considered cornerstones of morality. (Have no other gods before God, do not worship graven images, honor your father and mother, keep the sabbath holy, do not take God's name in vain, do not kill adultery, do not covet)

Personal freedom and liberties are protected because those freedoms are valuable to the PEOPLE. God has no part in it, and in fact God is typically thought of as being opposed to said freedoms.
Of course, now that people are beginning to care less about these freedoms, we see them being eroded.

The system of Christian morality laid out by Christ works great for society - and the beauty of new covenant/Christ law/morality is that it applies ONLY TO THOSE THAT CHOOSE TO SUBMIT TO IT. If you are a Christ follower, you have a longer list of rules to follow than the non-believer.

Those that don't believe in Christ or GOD don't have to follow the extra rules - obviously there are consequences for not following those rules or accepting the grace of Christ - but the consequences of those choices aren't felt in this life, only in the ETERNAL life.

But what does this have to do with the State? Are you arguing in favor of a legal system that distinguishes between Christians and non-Christians, the way Muslim states of old did?

So the idea that Christian morality is currently made up of rules and laws that were created to be temporary and exist only in the special circumstance of thousands of years ago like what you listed is a big misunderstanding and shows a sad trend in the understanding of Christianity by believers and non-believers alike.

The Bible nowhere implies that the Old rules were meant to be temporary, until the heretic Paul arrived on the scene. Jesus himself bluntly said that he did not come to overthrow the Law, but to uphold it. Not a letter was to be struck from the Law, or something like that.
(There was a point where Peter received a vision from God telling him to go forth and eat the unclean animals, but if I remember correctly, this was actually a metaphor telling him to go and preach to the Gentiles. At any rate, the vision would only have invalidated the dietary restrictions at most.)

The Christian morality of the 10 commandments and the new covenant/new testament as explained by Christ and others IS the foundation of our laws and Constitution. The founders didn't transpose the Bible to Bill of Rights and Constitution, but just as the textbooks you read in school help shape your intelligence as an adult, the morality of Christianity shaped the foundation of our country.

Actually, our founding fathers were deists and wanted to get away from religious government (particularly the Church of England). The Treaty of Tripoli explicitly stated that the United States is not a Christian nation, and religious fundamentalism only began to play a permanent, significant role in national politics during the 1970s-80s or so when the Moral Majority gained traction and successfully pushed the demon Reagan into office in 1980.

Besides, something having shaped our country doesn't necessarily make it good. Puritanism, slavery, liberalism, Christianity, capitalism, and immigration also shaped our nation, but not all of those things were good (pretty much everyone today agrees that slavery and Puritanism were bad, and the rest are fiercely debated to no useful end).
 
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