Republicans Need Change

[Darkdale]

Darkdale, do you really think Republicans are gonna just give up their "money" wedge issue? They're not stupid. They know that supporting an anti-gay platform gives them a large Christian base to work from. I don't see them just giving up all those votes. I hope I'm wrong. Democrat or Republican, I'll take support from wherever it comes from. But there's a big difference in being not actively anti-gay and being pro-gay. It's coming to the point where there will be no middle ground on this issue. Either you are anti-gay or you are pro-gay. I could maybe imagine the Republican pulling back from their active anti-gay initiatives, but I'm having a hard time seeing them taking up the cause and being a champion of gay rights. Again, I hope I'm wrong.

I'm saying, that they might. The debate within the Republican Party has already started. There are many Libertarians that have left the National Libertarian scene, choosing instead to try to influence the Republicans. We will start the debate and try to keep it going.

*takes a step away from the objective for a rare feelings moment*

I feel in my heart, that Christian Conservatives are not truly bigoted in theirs. I think they are ignorant. As long as this is a question of morality, the Christian Conservatives will be against it. So let us change the debate. I'm fine with anyone who wants to believe that homosexual behavior is wrong, immoral, or evil. That doesn't bother me. There are people who think I am evil, racist, and dangerous for worshiping the pre-christian nordic gods (the gods of an all white race). Screw em. I'll do my thing.

What bothers me is the denial of rights. Christians can understand that. Christians can understand slogans like "Hate the Sin, Not the Sinner". Christians can understand ideas like, a separation between church and state. Jesus said to render unto Caesar what is Caesars. Why not render the rights of the people to the people, preach the word on the streets and from the churches of the world, not from the steps of the Capital Building.

Christians can understand religious persecution. I think the reason why they are so against homosexuals is because the "Gay Community" is typically liberal (minus Tammy Bruce). I think most Conservative Christians are like me, they are bigoted against liberalism. And even if you hate liberals, you can't just go taking away their rights. It's ok to really dislike a group of people because of what they believe, as long as you respect their rights to believe it.

That needs to be the debate. I think Christian Conservatives will change their minds, they just need to think about it.

 

[Feathers in Hair]

Just out of curiosity, I would be interested in learning about why McCain would be a such a horrible nomination. I'm not trying to challenge anyone, I only ask this out of ignorance, and will happily start another thread, if need be.

 

[Darkdale]

Just out of curiosity, I would be interested in learning about why McCain would be a such a horrible nomination. I'm not trying to challenge anyone, I only ask this out of ignorance, and will happily start another thread, if need be.

McCain is not a political or economic conservative. He is great on military and social issues (from my point of view), but that isn't enough to rally the Republican Base. He wouldn't win a national election. I wouldn't vote for him. Libertarian-Conservatives won't vote for him. Christian-Conversatives won't vote for him.

 

[Feathers in Hair]

Ahhhh, okay, I see. Thanks for explaining that! (I know him more, as you said, from military and social issues, so it's good to hear the rest of it.)

 

[retrorich]

He wouldn't win a national election. I wouldn't vote for him. Libertarian-Conservatives won't vote for him. Christian-Conversatives won't vote for him.

I believe a lot more people would (and hopefully will) vote for McCain than you think. Christians who realize they made a huge mistake in voting for Bush because he kissed their theological butts and fed their irrational homophobia; Democrats who are turned off by Hillary Clinton for whatever reason; people of both parties, as well a independents, who are sick of the Iraq war and want an end to it and similar unjust, unwinnable wars; people who care about helping the old, the sick and the poor; people who are appalled at the idea of their own government spying on them; people who care about feedom, justice and equality--not just money and power; people who will use their own intelligence instead of religious dogma to determine their votes. Oh McCain can win all right; and if he does, America and the entire world will also win!

 

[Darkdale]

I respect where you are coming from, but I disagree. I don't think McCain would be any better than Bush. In some ways better, in some ways worse. All in all, not really what I'm looking for. I'm excited about 2008, because for the first time in my lifetime, no one has any idea what to expect. Mark Warner and Bill Richardson could bother be great picks by the Democrats, but both fields are wide open. I would expect to see Al Gore running too.

 

[nutshell]

DarkDale, how about Rudolph Giulliani?

He seems to be economically conservative and socially moderate.

 

[Darkdale]

DarkDale, how about Rudolph Giulliani?

He seems to be economically conservative and socially moderate.

He is actually not economiccaly conservative. He is a political/economic moderate and a social liberal (which is good; civil libertarians are great, most of the time). Like McCain he'd be strong on Defense. Though he brings something that McCain doesn't have. Leadership. Focus. Ambition.

Giulliani will have a tough campaign though... he's been no boyscout. I like him, but I'm not sure if he is the right guy. I'll wait.

 

[Lost Soul]

Darkdale, do you really think Republicans are gonna just give up their "money" wedge issue? They're not stupid. They know that supporting an anti-gay platform gives them a large Christian base to work from. I don't see them just giving up all those votes. I hope I'm wrong. Democrat or Republican, I'll take support from wherever it comes from. But there's a big difference in being not actively anti-gay and being pro-gay. It's coming to the point where there will be no middle ground on this issue. Either you are anti-gay or you are pro-gay. I could maybe imagine the Republican pulling back from their active anti-gay initiatives, but I'm having a hard time seeing them taking up the cause and being a champion of gay rights. Again, I hope I'm wrong.

They will Ms. Maize, just look up for the sign in the sky. It will be when you see pigs flying over your head.:biglaugh:

 

[Divine Androgyne]

McCain is not a political or economic conservative. He is great on military and social issues (from my point of view), but that isn't enough to rally the Republican Base. He wouldn't win a national election. I wouldn't vote for him. Libertarian-Conservatives won't vote for him. Christian-Conversatives won't vote for him.

But Democrats will. If you guys don't want him, can we have him?

 

[retrorich]

But Democrats will. If you guys don't want him [McCain], can we have him?

Amen, Brother! I would vote for McCain as a Republican, Democrat or Independent. Hell, I don't care if he runs as a Whig, a Bullmoose or a Mugwump. He's the best of the lot.

 

[Darkdale]

But Democrats will. If you guys don't want him, can we have him?

Yes. But the far left will never vote for him, so you won't be electing him to anything either. Even God spits moderates out of his mouth.

 

[retrorich]

Yes. But the far left will never vote for him, so you won't be electing him to anything either. Even God spits moderates out of his mouth.

I am part of "the far left," and I assure you I would vote for John McCain in a heartbeat. You see, I understand the importance of compromise in politics. McCain is a candidate who offers something for everyone in the political spectrum, and would make a president who could work effectively with members of congress on both sides of the aisle, helping to put an end to straight party line voting. I accept the fact that a "far left" candidate could not be elected at this time, and would be happy to accept an honest, intelligent moderate such as McCain.

 

[Darkdale]

I am part of "the far left," and I assure you I would vote for John McCain in a heartbeat. You see, I understand the importance of compromise in politics. McCain is a candidate who offers something for everyone in the political spectrum, and would make a president who could work effectively with members of congress on both sides of the aisle, helping to put an end to straight party line voting. I accept the fact that a "far left" candidate could not be elected at this time, and would be happy to accept an honest, intelligent moderate such as McCain.

Most Environmental Activists vote for someone who is great on environmental issues. Most Gay Activists vote for someone who is great on gay rights. Most Entitlement Activists vote for someone who is going to increase entitlements.

Most are not as reasonable, or strategic as you. I could be wrong though.