Requesting Possible Answers from Christians

[Danizar]

But Christianity states that salvation only comes through grace by faith in Christ, right? The problem is, I don't really know what I believe that has not been somehow proven, including the validity of any one religion, but I still don't want to go to Hell.

 

[Danizar]

You say "yoou know" and then stress the word ETERNAL.
We can spend some time and look at what eternal can mean, but being thrown into the eternal fire indicates that God's judgment is forever.

When broken down eternal means forever, and fire means judgment. If God's judgment is destruction forever, or darkness forever, or fire forever, it means it is absolute, and is stressing there is no more chance to come back.

Make sense?

You may be right. But how is the lay man who reads the Bible supposed to know that fire=judgment?

And another issue I struggle with is the validity of the Bible itself. Why should I believe it over any other "holy" book?

 

[Just_me_Mike]

You may be right. But how is the lay man who reads the Bible supposed to know that fire=judgment?

And another issue I struggle with is the validity of the Bible itself. Why should I believe it over any other "holy" book?

I suppose it is not uncommon to have many questions regardless of what it is you have begun a journey on. So I encourage you keep asking questions, but find as many answers as you can so you can make a more informed decision. God will do the rest.

As to your question regarding judgment=fire it might be worth your time to do a search online or buy a Strong's Concordance and research how the bible uses the word judgment and fire.

For example when judgment came upon Sodom it was with fire.

The bible when viewed by the lay person, will be very challenging, becuase God demands all your attention, and as such it really does take all of your attention to find the answers you seek.

However it does not take anything more than you reading, praying, and asking questions on occasion if you get stuck.

 

[Gentoo]

***MOD POST***

Moved to General Religious Debates.​

 

[slave2six]

This doesn't mean that you check rational thought at the door - but it does mean that when your "rational" ideas or your emotions seem to contradict your religious beliefs, that you give the religious beliefs the benefit of the doubt while you study further, asking God to guide you to wisdom and understanding.

I respect and like you a great deal, K, but here's my problem. Bear with me a moment if you will.

My sister has seven children ranging from 6 to 23. Her sixth child was perfectly normal until the age of 2 at which time he started having seizures. It was extremely difficult for the family but mostly for my brother-in-law (who is also my best friend). The nature of the problem was this.

All his adult life he had been more than exemplary in his Christian life and he believes with all his heart that God loves him. And he is deeply devoted to and loves God. He sees God as a father, just as Jesus taught.

Then this happened. I heve never seen a man more tormented but his torment was only partly because of his helplessness to heal his son. I think that a greater part of it was a sense of utter betrayal by God who did absolutely nothing to ease the suffering.

It is one thing to have a deity that demands obedience and worship. It is entirely different if you heave the label "father" into the list of God's attributes, however, because we all know what a father is and how a good father behaves toward his children. Perpetual silence and complete absence of intervention are not among those qualities.

My point is that my children have faith in me not because of something they have read but because of experience. They know me. They know that they are not going to go hungry. They know that when they make big mistakes (e.g. having a child out of wedlock) that I am not going to hold their guilt over their heads and that I will do everything in my power to help them. They know this because of who I have been to them and how I have acted in the past.

If I did nothing when they were in need and remained silent, it would not be right of me to criticize them for not trusting me or having faith in me. No amount of clinging to one's faith in the face of the obvious realities is helpful.

To my mind, faith based on someone else's reports about what a person is like is not really the kind of faith that matters. If someone told me that if I was ever unable to pay the bills that Kathryn would give me money, I'd say, "Wow. That's cool." I wouldn't doubt it for a second. But if I show up at your door and you hide from me or refuse to help me then of what value was that faith? None that I can think of.

I tend to believe that Danizar may be struggling because of these kinds of reasons.

Paul describes faith as "the evidence of things not seen" but very few people are capable of really holding to such a definition of faith. If we did, we'd never question whether George Bush or Ted Kennedy or Madelyn Murray O'Hare were good people or not. We'd simply grab an opinion and no matter what happened we'd still believe only the best (or worst) about those people.

 

[Dunemeister]

It's not that I doubt God's power. It's more His specific identity. And I really can't pin what I believe. I can say, "I believe that Christ is the Son of God and that he was raised from the dead" but in my heart there is still the shadow of a doubt. And I'm sure I'm not the only one. I mean, how many Christians do you see with enough faith to heal the sick or cast out demons, as Christ's disciples did? You'd think that with so many Christians, there would be more miracles.

Belief is consistent with nagging doubts. Take this example from the Gospel According to St. Mark:

Jesus asked the father, ‘How long has this been happening to [your son]?’ And he said, ‘From childhood. It has often cast him into the fire and into the water, to destroy him; but if you are able to do anything, have pity on us and help us.’ Jesus said to him, ‘If you are able!—All things can be done for the one who believes.’ Immediately the father of the child cried out, ‘I believe; help my unbelief!’

Of course, Jesus goes on to heal the man's child. I pray this man's tortured prayer almost daily (at least weekly). Shadows of doubt indeed. These shadows are not an indication you are not a Christian or that your faith is not pleasing to God.

 

[Dunemeister]

Paul describes faith as "the evidence of things not seen" but very few people are capable of really holding to such a definition of faith. If we did, we'd never question whether George Bush or Ted Kennedy or Madelyn Murray O'Hare were good people or not. We'd simply grab an opinion and no matter what happened we'd still believe only the best about those people.

A poignant story. And as you say, perpetual silence and complete absence of intervention are not among the qualities of a father. Has God been silent? Really? Has he failed to intervene? Really?

One of the difficult aspects of Christian religion is the already/not yet dichotomy. God has promised that he will reverse the damage done by sin and evil in the world, including disease, disorders, insanity, and all the rest. Yet these things still ravage the world. So how can we believe his promises? Well, does God have a track record of making specific promises and keeping them? Yes, indeed. We have a record of them in scripture. The point here is that suffering is a current reality. God has acted to destroy the devil and all his works (death and resurrection of Jesus accomplishes this), yet the battle is not over. But the resurrection of Jesus is the great sign that God will complete the work that he started. And this is true despite the apparently incompatibility of present appearances. The "not yet" side of things is still to come. That final resolution awaits. And whatever suffering we endure now will be made up for a hundredfold on the Day of Judgment. (Again, all this is speaking as a Christian to a suffering Christian).

In a way, this doesn't help. After all, the father has present needs. That's where the church is supposed to step in. The church, the body of Christ, rallies around those who suffer, providing aid and comfort as needed and possible. Still, the suffering can seem immense. But God does uphold and support those who are suffering. He doesn't promise that his people will live without suffering in this age. Rather, he promises to avenge wrongs and compensate for losses on that Great Day yet to come. He will set all things to rights.

(Sorry for the "preachy" tone in this post. In my defense, it's a Christian theological response to a Christian theological issue.)

 

[slave2six]

I mean, how many Christians do you see with enough faith to heal the sick or cast out demons, as Christ's disciples did? You'd think that with so many Christians, there would be more miracles.

Yes. This is a problem. But it is thwarted by a rebuke by Christ:

Matt. 17 - When they came to the crowd, a man approached Jesus and knelt before him. "Lord, have mercy on my son," he said. "He has seizures and is suffering greatly. He often falls into the fire or into the water. I brought him to your disciples, but they could not heal him."

"O unbelieving and perverse generation," Jesus replied, "how long shall I stay with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring the boy here to me."
​

Therein lies the rub. Ask for a miracle and you are perverse. Only a pure hearted person believes without evidence.

Catch 22.

 

[slave2six]

There is no hell in the sense that you might think. Hell is destroyed in revelations by the lake of fire. And the lake of fire is just a symbol to indicate those that enter it, will never ever exist again forever.

That's the first I ever heard that teaching. Sounds like complete tosh to me. If Hell is nothing more than becoming non-existent then how is that any different than an atheist point of view? It doesn't sound like any kind of motivator to me. I'd prefer to be non-existent than to go to a heaven ruled by a deity such as that found in the Bible.

 

[slave2six]

In a way, this doesn't help. After all, the father has present needs. That's where the church is supposed to step in. The church, the body of Christ, rallies around those who suffer, providing aid and comfort as needed and possible.

That would be nice and all if someone in the Church was able to heal the child but it seems to me that any group of people, religious or otherwise, can do as well at comforting. Your answer simply serves to prove the point that God is irrelevant at these times and not a person to be relied upon.

 

[slave2six]

Well, does God have a track record of making specific promises and keeping them? Yes, indeed. We have a record of them in scripture.

It might be more helpful if there was some track record more recent than 2,000 years ago. Where was he yesterday, last week, last month. Certainly there is no lack of opportunity for him to reveal himself...

 

[Just_me_Mike]

That's the first I ever heard that teaching. Sounds like complete tosh to me. If Hell is nothing more than becoming non-existent then how is that any different than an atheist point of view? It doesn't sound like any kind of motivator to me. I'd prefer to be non-existent than to go to a heaven ruled by a deity such as that found in the Bible.

It is not a popular teaching, because it won't fill seats in a church. However, God and his bible are not concerned with such matters.

The fear of eternal burning is ignorance once accepted and taught, but quite un-biblical when studied without bias. I would challenge anyone to present otherwise.

You call it tosh? I say God is just and fair. Those that love the life "HE" provided will keep it, and those such as yourself prefer to enjoy the here and now, then disappear.
That is very biblical, and shows that my God is a merciful God.

You have your pleasure now, I have mine later.

 

[Dunemeister]

It might be more helpful if there was some track record more recent than 2,000 years ago. Where was he yesterday, last week, last month. Certainly there is no lack of opportunity for him to reveal himself...

God has promised to usher in a world where suffering is no more. He has an unbroken and consistent track record of fulfilling his promises. So what difference does it make that the last visible sign (contrary to fact as I see it) was 2000 years ago. The point is that he has never failed to fulfill a promise. And in the temporary permission of someone's suffering, God does not reneg on his promises.

But (and this gets to my previous parenthesis) God has continued to communicate with his church. It's not always glitz and glamour, miracles and signs. Most of the time it isn't. Rather, it's as the prophet Elijah discovered: the still, small voice. The point is that, in his entirely excusable grief over his son's condition, the father need not hastily assume God is absent, uncaring, or impotent.

 

[Danizar]

You call it tosh? I say God is just and fair. Those that love the life "HE" provided will keep it, and those such as yourself prefer to enjoy the here and now, then disappear.
That is very biblical, and shows that my God is a merciful God.

You have your pleasure now, I have mine later.

A merciful God? He has infinite power, and yet He only saves certain select people. Hmm...

 

[Dunemeister]

A merciful God? He has infinite power, and yet He only saves certain select people. Hmm...

How many is he morally obligated to save?

 

[slave2six]

God has promised to usher in a world where suffering is no more. He has an unbroken and consistent track record of fulfilling his promises. So what difference does it make that the last visible sign (contrary to fact as I see it) was 2000 years ago?

It matters, sir, because we are creatures that:

1. Live to be maybe 100 years old (if we are lucky)
2. Make up stories to explain thing - not all of which are true or accurate
3. Have brains that require proof and evidence before something can be believed (or do you think a judicial system with a jury of one's peers is simply a form of entertainment?)
4. Don't give a tinker's cuss about what may or may not have happened 2,000 years ago untill someone comes to us with a story that requires a decision to be made lest we spend eternity in Hell
5. Cannot even agree that such a person as God exists let alone what he is like or what promises he has made or kept.

How have you survived to adulthood and yet these things have escaped your notice?

 

[slave2six]

Originally Posted by Danizar
A merciful God? He has infinite power, and yet He only saves certain select people. Hmm...

How many is he morally obligated to save?

Every last one that he has taken the trouble to create.

 

[PureX]

Christianity seems to me to be the most difficult religion to follow. In Islam, you follow certain laws and you're good to go. If you're a Jew, you're one of God's chosen people. If you're a Buddhist, you meditate and get enlightened. But faith is different. You can't give yourself faith. God is supposed to give you the Holy Spirit, right? Well, I don't feel that I have been given faith. So now what? Am I going to Hell? I can't DO anything, because I'm supposedly saved by grace through faith, which I don't seem to have. And I have asked God to send His Holy Spirit down upon me, believe me I have. But He hasn't. I can say I'm a Christian all I want, can recite the Creed till my jaw hurts, but it won't change what's in my heart, which is naturally skeptical (and I find it rather hard to believe that so many others in the world are all wrong). I even considered somehow brainwashing myself (didn't try that, though). Don't get me wrong, I love Christian ideals, and as for those Christians whose lives God has touched, who have a "relationship" with Christ, I ENVY you. So am I doomed? A little help here...

Faith is automatic. Just allow it to happen and it will.

But don't confuse faith with belief in a religious dogma. Those aren't the same thing. Faith takes practice and requires no particular object or knowledge. It may be easier, though, at first, to invent some sort of concept for yourself to focus that faith action, but it's not necessary. You don't have to have a "god". Or a religion. You can simply practice at allowing faith to hold you up; keep you calm; keep you moving forward, regardless of your fears. It's not that hard and as with many things, it gets easier as you continue to practice it.

If for example you love Christian ideals, then why not use them as a place to focus your faith? Practice trusting in those ideals, and in their ability to heal people when they are acted upon. I too believe that love and forgiveness are divine ideals, that when practiced in life they bring healing and spiritual growth and health. I have faith in this belief, and so I try to practice these ideals in my life. I fail sometimes, but I succeed sometimes, too. And I believe in it, so I keep trying.

It's not necessarily easy, but it's not that hard and it's simple enough.

 

[ayani]

Danizar ~

i do hear you. there is a big difference between saying you believe something, and knowing it's true and living out that perspective.

and you're right- other religions basically have the person do and profess and follow certain things, and that identifies them and makes them a _____. yet the Christian faith points to the need for a born-again experience, or personal encounter and relationship with Jesus Christ.

i remember asking a Christian friend "how do i get this...?" and his answer was "you can't and you won't" and that just about deflated me. he went on to say that one needs to empty one'es self, and ask Him in. that sounded so Zen that i was basically ready to give up hope.

personally, i "got it" when i came to admit that i didn't have it, didn't and couldn't understand it, wasn't really sure it was true, but wanted to know what was right from God's perspective. i told God all this, and asked Him to help me, because i couldn't figure out Christianity on my own. i stopped trying to get it, and asked God to help me know what was right. i asked God what was true about Jesus, and if He wanted me to be a Christian, even though i had no idea what, exactly, that meant.

a person can't force themselves to come to that point where they cry out "help!". we can profess something and understand a concept, without knowing what those things mean or should mean internally and personally. tell God what you've told us. pour your heart out to Him. be honest with Him. He loves you, and is willing and very able to help you on this.

 

[GiantHouseKey]

Greetings

That element of doubt you feel? I like to call it intelligence. If you are 100% sure of something that is purely a matter of faith, then you are either lieing or stupid, or both as it may be. Of course it's possible that you are wrong - Otherwise everybody would believe EXACTLY the same thing as you, because there would be no other possibilities.

The blind man cannot follow the path of the sighted.

GhK.