Respectful questions for understanding the LHP

[jasonwill2]

Holy **** how did I miss this party?

I very recently read the LaVey Satanist Bible, after realizing I knew practically nothing about Satanism, especially Atheistic Satanism. My reading has gotten me very intrigued by modern Satanism and the LHP in general.

I would greatly appreciate some points being clarified that I don't quite understand.

I thought I would find satisfactory answers just from searching the internet, but I didn't... and I would like to hear personal accounts directly from the mouths of members of the LHP, if you all don't mind.

As most of my knowledge lies specifically in Satanism as opposed to the commonalities of all the religions of the LHP, I apologize if I accidentally make false assumptions about Luciferians, Setians, others, or even Satanists. I aim to know how each denomination of the LHP views certain subjects; what they share, and how they differ.

So, the question that has been predominantly on my mind relates to respect for life and others. What are your reservations on killing others? What would be sufficient reason for you to kill? Do you only keep from killing because the human population as a whole is useful to you, or...? Let's ignore the fact that it is unlawful and you would likely be jailed; I am only concerned with your personal values and morality.

The other thing on my mind concerns magick. Magick, as described by LaVey, seems very open-ended. Do you believe that magick, lesser or ritualistic, is effective due to subliminal/emotional reasons, or do you think something more mysterious is at work? Or do you even practice it?

That's all that comes to mind right now. Any help is greatly appreciated!

OK killing... if I could get away with it, I might want to kill a bunch of people who basically destroyed my life, but I fear what that would do to me inside. I'm not the most stable person and so I probably wouldn't kill people because I either couldn't live with myself or would fear needing to kill again.:angel2:

My beliefs is that murder is denial of self via that person as all people have part of god in them (im a pantheist primary). So to murder is to kill when not in self-defense or vengeance basically. to deny yourself is to deny your nature or to intentionally hurt god.. .and since part of your soul is god (1/5th of the human soul), denying your own nature is hurting god... but killing animals for food is different as that is a good use of ending a life so that other life can live... its only when done for other reasons it gets bad. I'm pretty appalled by animal abuse, sacrifice, poaching, ect ect

magic... i think emotion is the fuel and that... well hell basically the intent sends it through some weird mechanism and it works... also i suppose demons and gods could help tooo. most magic i do on myself but am working on succubi summoning.

Magic for me travels on a network of connections between people who know each other arbitrarily called "The light" for how I visualize it as white beams connection people across the globe into a cobweb highway. basically latent group thoughts travel here and you can send your intent along it and it can reach the person. the physically closer they are the better as it as less far to travel. Though this is just more conjecture than anything.

very tied o.0

Every time I look at this thread, I'm so grateful for the contributions! Thank you so much, and you are all definitely helping me greatly in finding my own path. As always I want to address so many things individually, but my brain doesn't multitask this way Dx

I believe I now understand the general views of LaVey, hedonism, killing, and respect within the LHP, and I'm starting to get to know your individualities. You all have solid foundations in your values, and I respect that greatly.

And, so... there are no "manipulation junkies" in this DIR? I think I'd like to ask one of them a few questions =P

I wish I could manipulate others and can with my family to a degree, but I do it mostly to get things I really need as I'm out of the job at the moment.. .tahn again thats not really hard lol.

 

[Adrift]

I wish I could manipulate others and can with my family to a degree, but I do it mostly to get things I really need as I'm out of the job at the moment.. .tahn again thats not really hard lol.

So you don't have any qualms with manipulating others?

 

[jasonwill2]

So you don't have any qualms with manipulating others?

To a degree... I'm not gonna out right rob em' but if they offer help I am more than willing to use their sympathy against them to get a bit more simply because I am in such a financial situation as that I need to.

It's less "oh I'm so bad muahaha" and more like "sweet I just x thing that will help me eat another day".

This economy sucks...

 

[Mindmaster]

So you don't have any qualms with manipulating others?

Why should you? They have no qualms about manipulating you... if possible..

 

[jasonwill2]

Why should you? They have no qualms about manipulating you... if possible..

Sentiment is one of my strong suits... that and wonder... so much wonder. :yes:

But wonder can get you in jail if you use it to sway people to give you things like money. :no:

Woot for lesser magic.

 

[Adrift]

Why should you? They have no qualms about manipulating you... if possible..

I think that's an unfair generalization, personally. Unless you believe that everyone is inherently evil?

But wonder can get you in jail if you use it to sway people to give you things like money.

I may be misunderstanding what you consider to be "manipulation" and "swaying", but isn't it "swaying" to use guilt on someone to make them feel obligated to give you money? Regardless of how much you need it?

 

[jasonwill2]

I think that's an unfair generalization, personally. Unless you believe that everyone is inherently evil?




I may be misunderstanding what you consider to be "manipulation" and "swaying", but isn't it "swaying" to use guilt on someone to make them feel obligated to give you money? Regardless of how much you need it?

Manipulation is simply... manipulating a situation to work better for you... Simply by how I act I can get sympathy and have gotten stuff like complete strangers to give me 5 dollars without even asking them when I accidentally mis-counted my total at the store... for example (then again I was holding up the line when I realized this, even if for only a few seconds).

It's not that hard for a mentally ill and poor person like myself to get people to help me, much more so when our society is riddled with this strange need for "altruism". I just aim to get more out of it because it is a necessary function that helps me get by.

Then again it could just be that people are nice when casually asked... I don't know but it is true that either way it is caused by guilt/sympathy... me intentionally causing it or not.

 

[Mindmaster]

I think that's an unfair generalization, personally. Unless you believe that everyone is inherently evil?

Not very evil, but certainly Machiavellian. There is a mechanism behind mass media, politics, and mainstream religions and it is all manipulative. I am merely aware of the techniques being used and exploit them in the same way your supposed 'good' guys are doing. Or is it simply OK for them do so and not I because I am a Satanist?

I recommend you to read Robert Greene's _The 48 Laws of Power_ as a start. That book combines the ideas of Machiavelli, Sun Tzu, and Greene based on historical examples and stories. Its hard to rule your life, and sometimes you have to be downright cruel with people whom would see you to your end. Are you not aware of that? Read that book, and then come here with your ideas of right and wrong. You will find that no such conception exists, but rather that certain things must be done to maintain ones power in life.

 

[Adrift]

Not very evil, but certainly Machiavellian. There is a mechanism behind mass media, politics, and mainstream religions and it is all manipulative. I am merely aware of the techniques being used and exploit them in the same way your supposed 'good' guys are doing. Or is it simply OK for them do so and not I because I am a Satanist?

Ouch =[ I never meant to suggest that. Sorry for any offense.

I recommend you to read Robert Greene's _The 48 Laws of Power_ as a start. That book combines the ideas of Machiavelli, Sun Tzu, and Greene based on historical examples and stories. Its hard to rule your life, and sometimes you have to be downright cruel with people whom would see you to your end. Are you not aware of that? Read that book, and then come here with your ideas of right and wrong. You will find that no such conception exists, but rather that certain things must be done to maintain ones power in life.

It takes me forever to finish books, but I'll look into that.

"my supposed 'good' guys"... "my ideas of right and wrong"... I'm sorry if I came off as biased. That is not how I want to be, but, naturally, I don't have much exposure to alternate ways of thinking, so I am still processing all the new information. I will try to keep myself neutral.

 

[Mindmaster]

Ouch =[ I never meant to suggest that. Sorry for any offense.


It takes me forever to finish books, but I'll look into that.

"my supposed 'good' guys"... "my ideas of right and wrong"... I'm sorry if I came off as biased. That is not how I want to be, but, naturally, I don't have much exposure to alternate ways of thinking, so I am still processing all the new information. I will try to keep myself neutral.

I'd read that book regardless of your other beliefs as it is far more approachable than the source material. In fact, the more polarized your current faith is against something the more I'd read in argument of it to see if what is being told to you is true (in your own assumption). I remain rather amoral on the subject but it is because I am aware many people are motivated by pleasure and others via pain. I'm not militantly against the RHP in deference to the LHP in fact I use them for information as well -- yesterday I read some excellent material on how to debate Intelligent Design vs Evolution and watched a movie on it. The content of the movie was worthless, but the mechanisms used by the Christians to defend their argument were well constructed and a great example of how to present your information in such a way that one doesn't have to prove it. It really was watching some artistes of critical debate at work.

In all things there is the audience, the trick, and the puppeteer behind the scenes. A good showman gets what he wants, a better one gets what he wants and the audience loves him for it.

 

[Orias]

When it comes down to it, man simply uses and re-manifests the blocks he was given.

All concepts, are touchable.

 

[jasonwill2]

I'd read that book regardless of your other beliefs as it is far more approachable than the source material. In fact, the more polarized your current faith is against something the more I'd read in argument of it to see if what is being told to you is true (in your own assumption). I remain rather amoral on the subject but it is because I am aware many people are motivated by pleasure and others via pain. I'm not militantly against the RHP in deference to the LHP in fact I use them for information as well -- yesterday I read some excellent material on how to debate Intelligent Design vs Evolution and watched a movie on it. The content of the movie was worthless, but the mechanisms used by the Christians to defend their argument were well constructed and a great example of how to present your information in such a way that one doesn't have to prove it. It really was watching some artistes of critical debate at work.

In all things there is the audience, the trick, and the puppeteer behind the scenes. A good showman gets what he wants, a better one gets what he wants and the audience loves him for it.

Ah... convincing people of intelligent design and creationism... the power of lesser magic at work.

 

[Kori Houghton]

There are religions that call themselves LHP which accept their own versions of intelligent design. I think some with that viewpoint might say that greater magic, rather than lesser, led them to their belief.

Often views we personally oppose seem like they could only be presented in terms of so-called LBM.

 

[jasonwill2]

There are religions that call themselves LHP which accept their own versions of intelligent design. I think some with that viewpoint might say that greater magic, rather than lesser, led them to their belief.

Often views we personally oppose seem like they could only be presented in terms of so-called LBM.

If the only difference of black and white magic is who is using it and for what, it seems that it's only a relative and perspective term. So a term like "lesser black magic" makes no sense unless the person recognizes dualism or "lesser white magic".

A term like LBM only really sounds cool... but it seems to me that the mechanisms of magic is the same regardless of who is using it and for what purposes, just like the laws of electricity doesn't change fundamentally for what nation is using it and for what purposes, either light-bulbs or electric chairs.

 

[Kori Houghton]

If the only difference of black and white magic is who is using it and for what, it seems that it's only a relative and perspective term. So a term like "lesser black magic" makes no sense unless the person recognizes dualism or "lesser white magic".

I agree. I tend not to separate magic along the lines of Black vs. White. As used by many contemporary magicians, black magic does not mean "evil" intent.

A term like LBM only really sounds cool... but it seems to me that the mechanisms of magic is the same regardless of who is using it and for what purposes, just like the laws of electricity doesn't change fundamentally for what nation is using it and for what purposes, either light-bulbs or electric chairs.

I think I share your view. But some groups see magic as categorized by whether its target is the mind of the self, the mind of another indivdual, or the minds of groups of humans, or the target is some aspect of the material universe. Where Black magic involves the soul or psyche, White magic involves matter only. I personally do not make that division.

 

[Adramelek]

I've come to this conversation late, but I must put in my two scents worth. As a Setian Black Magician killing is not my way, if someone does me a wrong I do reserve the right to my vengeance, but killing, no one is worth my spending the rest of my life in prison. My personal moto is forgive, but never forget.

Black Magic is the Art of altering the equalibrium between the objective universe and the subjective universe(s) by power of will and mental consentration. It is the means by which one can tip the balance and bring into objective reality one's higher thoughts, ideas, goals, and desires. However, one does not use ritual magic/Greater Black Magic to achieve lesser or more mundane desires or goals just as one would not use sterling silver-ware or fine china to serve hamburgers and hot dogs.

Xeper.
/Adramelek\

 

[Adramelek]

I should also point out here that LBM tools such as symbols, statuary, candles, insences, invocations, swords/athemes/wands, ritual chambers are used to enhance the GBM Working, however, it has been said that the opposite is not true. Do you agree, if not, why not?

Xeper.
/Adramelek\

 

[jasonwill2]

I've come to this conversation late, but I must put in my two scents worth. As a Setian Black Magician killing is not my way, if someone does me a wrong I do reserve the right to my vengeance, but killing, no one is worth my spending the rest of my life in prison. My personal moto is forgive, but never forget.

Black Magic is the Art of altering the equalibrium between the objective universe and the subjective universe(s) by power of will and mental consentration. It is the means by which one can tip the balance and bring into objective reality one's higher thoughts, ideas, goals, and desires. However, one does not use ritual magic/Greater Black Magic to achieve lesser or more mundane desires or goals just as one would not use sterling silver-ware or fine china to serve hamburgers and hot dogs.

Xeper.
/Adramelek\

I'm hungry now :drool:, but yes that would be overkill.

I should also point out here that LBM tools such as symbols, statuary, candles, insences, invocations, swords/athemes/wands, ritual chambers are used to enhance the GBM Working, however, it has been said that the opposite is not true. Do you agree, if not, why not?

Xeper.
/Adramelek\

I don't make those kinds of distinctions as most magic I use on myself, so greater magic and lesser magic is just an annoying differentiation for the same idea of improving myself.

Edit: Also as long as I get the desired results it really doesn't matter to me which one I used, at least in the short-run.

 

[Kori Houghton]

However, one does not use ritual magic/Greater Black Magic to achieve lesser or more mundane desires or goals just as one would not use sterling silver-ware or fine china to serve hamburgers and hot dogs.

Xeper.
/Adramelek\

Your analogy demonstrates how assigning values to the types of magic are personal and arbitrary. Silver flatware and fine china were made for serving and eating food; the type, cost, or creative method of preparing said food is not involved with choosing table settings. I am an antiques dealer and specialize in selling old china and flatware. Dishes I sell today were originally designed and manufactured to serve casual meals, like beans and franks, or burgers, on the patio. And the prices for highly sought after patterns of casual china can easily exceed the market price for many patterns of fine china. Just like stainless flatware with nice bakelite handles gets a better price than most patterns of silver. It's always a matter of the individual assigning meaning and value.

 

[Kori Houghton]

I should also point out here that LBM tools such as symbols, statuary, candles, insences, invocations, swords/athemes/wands, ritual chambers are used to enhance the GBM Working, however, it has been said that the opposite is not true. Do you agree, if not, why not?

Xeper.
/Adramelek\

I am not sure what you mean by opposite here? Are GBM and LBM opposites? Being different does not always mean opposite. Are you asking if magicians use GBM tools to enhance an LBM working?

I never use ritual tools myself, and never have. Symbols can always be useful.