Resurrected or rivived? What, if the Turin Shroud offers a big surprise?

[Ketzer]

The message of the Turin Shroud: Jesus has survived the crucifixion. Source: www.shroud.info

For a long time, the Turin shroud was believed to be a ‘living proof" of the crucifixion of Jesus and in particular of His supernatural resurrection. In the 1980s a radiocarbon-dating was supposed to bring ultimate scientific clarity about the authenticity of the cloth. The result produced in 1988 is unambiguous: The alleged shroud of Jesus is a forgery from the Middle Ages!
Today, more than 20 years later it comes gradually out that the samples have been fraudulently exchanged.
This is irritating.
But there is another irritating fact: Forensic scientists from Germany, Spain and England are sure that the man under the shroud must have still been alive.

Has the Turin Shroud in the end the "power" to turn christianity upside down?

 

[outhouse]

while the shroud itself has no historicity to yeshua at all.


It is still up for debate if its even first century.



So the facts are we dont know what age it is, and it cannot be tied to Yeshua in any way beyond imagination.


NEXT

Yeshua has historicity of actually dieing on a cross. Most scholars and historians will state that historical yeshua died on a cross.


this is the third strike for your case.

 

[outhouse]

Has the Turin Shroud in the end the "power" to turn christianity upside down?

No because 2 billion people think he lived and died.

the shroud is a death cloth and the rest is fantasy

 

[Ketzer]

while the shroud itself has no historicity to yeshua at all.


It is still up for debate if its even first century.



So the facts are we dont know what age it is, and it cannot be tied to Yeshua in any way beyond imagination.


NEXT

Yeshua has historicity of actually dieing on a cross. Most scholars and historians will state that historical yeshua died on a cross.


this is the third strike for your case.

Well, you think to know a lot of the Turin Shroud, your "Shroud religion" is therefore firm like an orthodox religion.

Unless you are really willing to reopen the case and look at what is known today (or is thought to be known) a discussion with you makes no sense.

 

[Ketzer]

No because 2 billion people think he lived and died.

the shroud is a death cloth and the rest is fantasy

You might be right - people like to believe in fantasies - an old grave cloth, not worth to look at it.

In my eyes it is the same as with the story of Galilei: if one thinks already to know the truth, it is not worth while to look through telescopes - like the cardinals, who sentences Galileo.

 

[fallingblood]

For a long time, the Turin shroud was believed to be a ‘living proof" of the crucifixion of Jesus and in particular of His supernatural resurrection. In the 1980s a radiocarbon-dating was supposed to bring ultimate scientific clarity about the authenticity of the cloth. The result produced in 1988 is unambiguous: The alleged shroud of Jesus is a forgery from the Middle Ages!
Today, more than 20 years later it comes gradually out that the samples have been fraudulently exchanged.
This is irritating.
But there is another irritating fact: Forensic scientists from Germany, Spain and England are sure that the man under the shroud must have still been alive.

Has the Turin Shroud in the end the "power" to turn christianity upside down?

There have been many revelations from scholars and historians concerning a variety of religion. However, most people don't end up hearing this information. Much of the time, this information stayed within scholarly circles, and some curious laymen.

When it does trickle down to the general public, audiences may be interested for some time; however, it passes on. A few words in a book, documentary, etc, generally are not going to change the ideas of people who really have no real want to examine their faith.

And really, that tends to be the regular stance. Many people are religious, but they don't want to spend too much time being historians or scholars and learning about the religion fully. It takes a lot of effort, time, and really, just bores a lot of people. They have other things to do.

This is relevant to the Shroud of Turin as even if one could show that it belonged to Jesus, and that he was alive at the time, it wouldn't matter to the vast majority of people. It may catch their attention, but it will soon fall away, and people will just go back to believing what they had in the past.

 

[Ketzer]

There have been many revelations from scholars and historians concerning a variety of religion. However, most people don't end up hearing this information. Much of the time, this information stayed within scholarly circles, and some curious laymen.

...

It may catch their attention, but it will soon fall away, and people will just go back to believing what they had in the past.

Yes it seems so. But I believe that the way religion is believed and lived can change.
Let's just assume that the you get shown in TV that the historical Jesus as survived his crucixion, kids learn it in school - not in sunday school of course but in history-lessons, don't you think that this might gradually change how religion is perceived and lived. I think that in 20-30 years discussions in many churches might evolve.

 

[Ketzer]

No because 2 billion people think he lived and died.

Another way to look at this:

A man who is dead as a dodo can not be seen alive, preaching to people, even eating something as in John reported - I mean scientifically speaking.

Therefore the core of christian religion is not compatible of modern scientific thinking. There are only 3 positions possible:
(1) You believe that Jesus was indeed dead: then you have to explain how the christian movement (church) can have evolved out of a lie, why most of the apostles could have become martyrs confessing something they knew was not true.
(2) You believe Jesus has survived in a state of coma (was only believed to be dead): merely unbelievable but scientifically possible - that's what the Turin shroud seems to support.
(3) you split your mind and live with 2 incompatible world-views as most fundamentalistic christians today.

 

[outhouse]

ill go with #1

but

the apostles might not have known, they were running for the lives so they didnt end up like their leader.

I feel they bailed out of fear.


They may not have believed it a lie, if yeshuas body was missing or buried they could have ran with the resurrection honestly.

BUT the real fact is, none of the gospels were written by people who knew yeshua. we dont know what the apostles really thought.

 

[Ketzer]

ill go with #1

Fine, so we both exclude variant 3 and agree that nothing supernatural has happened in Palestine. The supernatural happened only in the consciousness of some people (especially Paul) , this paved the was for a religion, right?

Then we have only 2 cases left:
(1) Jeshua was indeed dead aufter the crucifixion but believed (somehow) alive later
(2) Jesus was indeed alive after the crucifixion (survived) but was believed dead at first but later when he "appeared" the desciples this have been real encounters with a real living (somehow recovered) person. Later something supernatural has been made about this events (especially from Paul, who was no witness of what really happened).

In (1) we have to explain how this strange belief formed. For the desciples with the crucifixion and death of Jeshua all the hope must have gone. It is likely that they were depressed, confronted with a very bad reality, it should be expected that they went back to their former life, somehow disillusioned. But they did not. They proclaimed that they have seen Jesus after his crucifixion alive that they eat together with him that he told them a lot of things. All invented? A kind of mass-haluzination? I can not believe this.
In (2) we have to ask, is this possible: survive a crucifixion, beeing burried, cured, continue the mission. I think it is very unlikely that something like this happens, but it is (scientifically) not impossible.

How can we decide? It is a decision under uncertainty.
But (for me) there is the Turin Shroud. I know that you have already decided here, but I too. We both have our reasons.

Let's just assume that the TS was indeed the burial cloth of Jeshua. Then it would be a kind of witness of what has really happened in the tomb. A kind of 5th gospel, but examinable by modern science. We would have hard facts not stories written decades later by religious people.

The most interesting for me concerning the TS is:
(1) forensic scientists never doubted that under the cloth laid once a crucified and terrible treated man, more than a dozen forensic scientists have examined the cloth intensively in the history of shroud-science and forensic scientists are trained to find out the truth and not to be fooled. I can not believe that a mediaval forger can fool over a dozen modern forensic scientists. Such a geniality is not possible.
(2) Several forensic scientists in different countries came to the conclusion that the man under the shroud must have been still alive - this is fact.

Was it Jeshua or somebody else? This is another question, but to look at this question makes only sense if it is at least agreed that the TS is a real grave cloth of a real crucified person, otherwise any further discussion in this direction makes no sense.

 

[outhouse]

(1) Jeshua was indeed dead aufter the crucifixion but believed (somehow) alive later

resurrection is a concept that had been around in the religion for centuries, it was not a new concept they just drempt up.

To build a deity you have to give him more powers then your enemies deities.



There is no doubt the romans were masters of killing people on a cross, the odd's of survival afterwards are almost non existant.

In (1) we have to explain how this strange belief formed

it wasnt a strange belief. common knowledge on the OT

I can not believe this.

because we dont know what happened to the body, doesnt mean we let our imaginations run wild.

(1) forensic scientists never doubted that under the cloth laid once a crucified and terrible treated man

False

you need sources for a claim liek that because even wiki gives all kinds of different explanations for how the image formed.

more than a dozen forensic scientists have examined the cloth intensively in the history of shroud-science and forensic scientists are trained to find out the truth and not to be fooled. I can not believe that a mediaval forger can fool over a dozen modern forensic scientists. Such a geniality is not possible.

Funny many scientist say its a forgery

scientist say its dated not old enough from different test by different people


scientist and theist also say there is no ties between the TS and jesus





You are left with imagination only to tie the two together.

many people were put to death on a cross if the TS was old enough. To date its not

 

[fallingblood]

Just to add fuel to the flame. There is at least one case of an individual being revived after being crucified. Josephus speaks of it in his work. And this was someone that Josephus knew personally, and was responsible for having taken off the cross (incidentally, the other individuals that were taken off the crosses at the same time died, even with medical attention. The key being though that it is possible to survive crucifixion, and be revived afterwards).

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Playing pretend can be really fun.

 

[Ketzer]

Funny many scientist say its a forgery
scientist and theist also say there is no ties between the TS and jesus

funny many scientists say that the TS is real.

Does a continuation of the discussion between us make sense? What do you think?

 

[Ketzer]

Just to add fuel to the flame. There is at least one case of an individual being revived after being crucified. Josephus speaks of it in his work. And this was someone that Josephus knew personally, and was responsible for having taken off the cross (incidentally, the other individuals that were taken off the crosses at the same time died, even with medical attention. The key being though that it is possible to survive crucifixion, and be revived afterwards).

Crucifixion was made to create a daylong cruel and awful dieing, especially for rioters to demonstrate their followers the powerlessness of their leader.

Pilate wondered that Jesus should be already dead ...

 

[shawn001]

Things to ponder

The Shroud of Turin

First impressions. A detailed analysis

The Shroud of Turin: relic, historical artifact, icon or pious fraud?

 

[Ketzer]

The Turin Shroud ... an ingenious forgery from the Middle Ages?
Surprising message of the Turin Shroud affects Christian Religion