Resurrection of the mentally incapacitated in Jehovahs Witness resurrection theory

[Clear]

Hi Eli G.

Eli G. Said : “The truth is that we Jehovah's Witnesses only study and believe what the Scriptures teach. You apparently forgot that Jehovah never taught the Israelites about an afterlife. He told them things like this: Dan. 12:13 “But as for you, go on to the end. You will rest, but you will stand up for your lot at the end of the days.” (post #38)


Hi Eli G.

Your post is a wonderful example of my point regarding the inability of Jehovahs Witness theology regarding the spirit to survive outside of its narrow system of interpretation.

Part of the reason the Jehovahs Witness movement can never survive in the historical world outside of their own interpretation of the protestant bible is that the Jehovahs Witness system of interpretation with its doctrines regarding the spirit (or lack of spirit in individuals) did not exist in history. It simply cannot be found in any of the literature produced by the Early Judeo-Christians.


I have already pointed out that Most individuals simply try to debate pet scriptures and apply anachronistic and provincial and personal meaning to proof texts from a bible and do not consider that the early Christians themselves described what the early sacred texts meant to them.

For example, if a Christian quotes Gal. 5:17 where the “flesh lusteth against the spirit, and the spirit against the flesh” to show that individuals have both flesh and spirit, again, one is still confronted by having to interpret the scripture according to some sort of bias and/or limited knowledge.

The advantage of looking at the historical comments of the early Judeo-Christians is that we can see what such statements things meant anciently to the ancient Christians themselves (as opposed to interpretations created by the various later Christian movements such as the Jehovahs Witnesses).

It so happens in this case, that there are MANY writings they have left us that tell us specifically and clearly that they did believe in the existence of a spirit that existed before man was born.

Thus, if one can see the early Christian doctrines FROM THE VIEWPOINT OF THE ANCIENT CHRISTIANS, then one can better understand scriptures that refer to the spirit in man in the way THEY understood them.
for examples :

Ps. 16:10 (or Acts 2:27, 31) where the psalmist rejoices that God “thou wilt not leave my spirit in hell”
James 4:5 spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy
Job 14:22 his spirit within him shall mourn
Ps. 22:29 none can keep alive his own spirit
Matt. 10:28 fear him which is able to destroy both spirit and body
James 1:21 engrafted word, which is able to save your spirit
1 Pet. 1:22 ye have purified your spirit in obeying
Ezek. 11:19 (36:26–27; 37:14) I will put a new spirit within you
Luke 24:39 spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me
Acts 7:59 Stephen ... saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit
Acts 23:8 Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit
Rom. 8:16 spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit
1 Cor. 6:20 glorify God in your body, and in your spirit

While such texts witness to us that there is a spirit associated with individuals, it does not tell us how the ancient Christians themselves interpreted such texts and how they used such concepts in their belief system.

However, the Christians use and describe and explain their usage of such themes in much of the early Judeo-Christian texts. We can even look into metaphorical descriptions or idiomatic descriptions.

Many, many, many of the earliest Judeo-Christian sacred Texts, relate the expansive doctrine of the nature of spirits before, during and after life.

The theme of pre-creation and what happened there is written into the early sacred texts, their hymns contain the doctrine; virtually ALL of the ascension literature contains the doctrine, the war in heaven texts certainly contain the doctrine; the earliest liturgies contain the doctrine; the midrashic texts contain the doctrine, the Jewish Haggadah contains the doctrine, the Zohar contains it; the testament literature is full of it. One simply cannot READ the earliest sacred Judeo-Christian texts without reference to this early Christian doctrine. This vast early literature is part of the context for early Christians and illuminates their understanding of biblical texts that reference this pre-creation time period and what happened there.



Enoch, in his vision of pre-creation heaven, relates :

”... I saw a hundred thousand times a hundred thousand, ten million times ten million, an innumerable and uncountable (multitude) who stand before the glory of the Lord of the Spirits. (1st Enoch 40:1)

Frequently, translators used the term “soul” as a synonym for “spirit” (since a “soul” is not really the same thing as a “spirit”). However, this should not be particularly disorienting since, as the phillipian text tells us : “The soul of Adam came into being by means of a breath, which is a synonym for spirit."

The great scribe Enoch is commanded by the angel to : “... write all the souls of men, whatever of them are not yet born, and their places, prepared for eternity. 5 For all souls are prepared for eternity, before the composition of the earth.” 2nd Enoch 23:4-5

In his vision the angel bids Enoch, “Come and I will show you the souls of the righteous who have already been created and have returned, and the souls of the righteous who have not yet been created.”

After seeing various souls, a midrashic explanation is given us by Enoch regarding these many souls “the spirit shall clothe itself in my presence” refers to the souls of the righteous which have already been created in the storehouse of beings and have returned to the presence of god; and “the souls which I have made” refers to the souls of the righteous which have not yet been created in the storehouse.” 3rd Enoch 43:1-3

This is simply another of the many versions of the doctrine expressed in Ecclesiates 12:7 : and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it. (NIV)

This same ancient doctrine is mirrored in multiple other early Judeo-Christian texts as well : When God the Father commands the son to “Go, take the soul of my beloved Sedrach, and put it in Paradise.” The only begotten Son said to Sedrach, “give me that which our Father deposited in the womb of your mother in your holy dwelling place since you were born.” (The Apocalypse of Sedrach 9:1-2 and 5).

When the Son finally DOES take the Soul of the Mortal Sedrach, he simply takes it back to God “where it came from”.

It is simply a rephrase of Ecclesiastes 12:7.

And this principle is repeated in many different texts and in mature doctrinal forms.
For example, the Rechabites describe the journey of the righteous soul at death, saying : “9 And then the soul of our blessed brother leaves the body in which it had settled; and with joy far removed from mourning it approaches and comes to the holy angels and ascends up to God with joy." History of the Rechabites 15:9-10; “

And while we are looking at that holy and spotless soul, the holy angels carry it away and salute it, and thus it ascends and goes up from us in glory....1b And when the highest order of cherubim and seraphim receive it, they rise to the gate of the holy Trinity. Then the Son of God receives that soul from their hands and brings it (forward) so that it may worship the father....7a And then God sends that soul to a stately mansion (to await) the day of resurrection for (the rest of our) community. History of the Rechabites 16:1; 1b,7;

“Jesus said, “Blessed are the solitary and elect, for you will find the Kingdom. For you are from it, and to it you will return.” (THE GOSPEL OF THOMAS v 49)

“Therefore, fear not death. For that which is from me, that is the soul, departs for heaven. That which is from the earth, that is the body, departs for the earth from which it was taken.” (The Greek Apocalypse of Ezra 6:26 & 7:1-4)

“78 Now, concerning death, the teaching is: When the decisive decree has gone forth from the Most High that a man shall die, as the spirit leaves the body to return again to him who gave it, first of all it adores the glory of the Most High. 79 And if it is one of those who have shown scorn and have not kept the way of the Most High, and who have despised his Law, and who have hated those who fear God – 80 such spirits shall not enter into habitations, but shall immediately wander about in torments....” Fourth Book of Ezra 7; 75-87;

The Greek Apocalypse of Ezra is also consistent in its description, When the prophet Ezra asks God about this point, God tells Ezra : “… fear not death. For that which is from me, that is the soul, departs for heaven. That which is from the earth, that is the body, departs for the earth from which it was taken.” 6:26 & 7:1-4;

The Early Christian usage of Ecclesiastes 12:7 was used in this same way by the Apostle Peter as he explained to Clement that "This world was made so that the number of spirits predestined to come here when their number was full could receive their bodies and again be conducted back to the light." (Recognitions)


POST TWO FOLLOWS

 

[Clear]

POST TWO OF THREE

In explaining the relationship of this life to the pre-mortal realm of spirits, the messiah explained

“After we went forth from our home, and came down to this world, and came into being in the world in bodies, we were hated and persecuted, not only by those who are ignorant, but also by those who think that they are advancing the name of Christ, since they were unknowingly empty, not knowing who they are, like dumb animals. They persecuted those who have been liberated by me, since they hate them...” (The second treatise of the Great Seth)

The early doctrine of the existence of the spirits of men took the arbitrariness out of God have created spirits unequally.
IN this model, the spirits are partly responsible for their nature upon entering this life.

Instead of arbitrarily creating spirits with defects (which spirits may be punished for later), in this early Christian context, the Lord creates the body in relationship to certain characteristics the spirit has already obtained (or did not obtain) in its heavenly abode over vast periods of time. For example from the testament literature : “For just as a potter knows the pot, how much it holds, and brings clay for it accordingly, so also the Lord forms the body in correspondence to the spirit,” and, because the Lord knows and has known the spirit over eons, “ the Lord knows the body to what extent it will persist in goodness, and when it will be dominated by evil. For there is no form or conception which the Lord does not know since he created every human being according to his own image.” (Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs - Napthali 2:2-5)

“The soul and body of man are united in this way: When a woman has conceived...God decrees what manner of human being shall become of it – whether it shall be male or female, strong or weak, rich or poor, beautiful or ugly, long or short, fat or thin, and what all it’s other qualities shall be. Piety and wickedness alone are left to the determination of man himself. “Then God makes a sign to the angel appointed over the souls, saying, “Bring me the soul so-and-so, which is hidden in Paradise, whose name is so-and-so, and whose form is so-and-so.” The angel brings the designated soul, and she bows down when she appears in the presence of God, and prostrates herself before him.”

Occasionally the spirit is reluctant to leave the untainted heaven for an earth where she knows her existence will be more difficult as she gains her moral education by coming to earth. In such accounts, God is NOT angry but the text says “ God consoles her. The text relates God telling the soul that “The world which I shall cause you to enter is better than the world in which you have lived hitherto, and when I created you, it was only for this purpose.”

Such principles in the Haggadic text (which is related to the Talmudic history) is mirrored in several other texts. For example, the Zohar confirms the doctrine as it relates essentially the same description. : At the time that the Holy One, be blessed, was about to create the world, he decided to fashion all the souls which would in due course be dealt out to the children of men, and each soul was formed into the exact outline of the body she was destined to tenant. Scrutinizing each, he saw that among them some would fall into evil ways in the world. Each one in it’s due time the Holy One, be blessed, bade come to him, and then said: “Go now, descend into this and this place, into this and this body.” Yet often enough the soul would reply: “Lord of the world, I am content to remain in this realm, , and have no wish to depart to some other, where I shall be in thralldom, and become stained.” Whereupon the Holy One, be blessed, would reply: “Your destiny is, and has been from the day of thy forming, to go into that world.” Then the soul, realizing it could not disobey, would unwillingly descend and come into this world.” The Zohar

In very symbolic language, the Zohar relates the creation of the souls in heaven to the point that they become formed and cognizant and take on characteristics they will keep with them when they are placed into bodies at birth, even to the point of having gender. Speaking of which fully developed souls it says :

“the soul of the female and the soul of the male, are hence preeminent above all the heavenly hosts and camps.” The question in the sacred text is then asked : It may be wondered, if they are thus preeminent on both sides, why do they descend to this world only to be taken thence at some future time? “This may be explained by way of a simile: A king has a son whom he sends to a village to be educated until he shall have been initiated into the ways of the palace. When the king is informed that his son is now come to maturity, the king, out of his love, sends the matron his mother to bring him back into the palace, and there the king rejoices with him every day. In this wise, the Holy One, be blessed, possessed a son from the matron, that is, the supernal holy soul. He dispatched it to a village, that is, to this world, to be raised in it, and initiated into the ways of the King’s palace. Informed that his son was now come to maturity, and should be returned to the palace, the King, out of love, sent the matron for him to bring him into the palace THE ZOHAR


As I mentioned, ancient Judeo-Christian literature contains multiple traditions regarding the characteristic of spirits.

One can also look at ancient metaphorical and idiomatic usages underlying the ancient Judeo-Christian belief that individuals have spirits and that the spirit is “clothed” by the body.

For example, the text of 2nd Enoch relates regarding how the Prophet Enoch leaves his mortal body and enters heaven : ”And the Lord said to Michael, “Go, and extract Enoch* from [his] earthly clothing. And anoint him with my delightful oil, and put him into the clothes of my glory*. 9 And so Michael did, just as the Lord had said to him. He anointed me and he clothed me. ...10 And I looked at myself, and I had become like one of his glorious ones, and there was no observable difference.” 2nd Enoch 22:8-10

This imagery of extracting a person from his garment is close to the terminology of Daniel 7:15, “my spirit was upset inside its sheath.”

The same idea is found in the Dead Sea Scroll textual traditions. 1QapGen 2:10, “and my breath within its sheath.” The historian who knows Hebrew will recognize “The clothes of my glory” as a Hebraism.

Philip, in his prayer before martyrdom, and evidently anticipating the heavenly condition (cf. Acts 6:15), says, “Clothe me in thy glorious robe and the seal of light that ever shineth” (James, ANT, p. 450),

One can look to the Talmud’s explanation of the relationship between the Body and the Spirit that was taught anciently :

For examples: The rechabites taught : “ the appearance of the soul when it leaves the body is the likeness of a glorious light, and formed and imprinted in the likeness and type of the body,...”. (History of the Rechabites 15:9-10).

Similarly, Jewish Naphtali explains the early belief that “the Lord forms the body in correspondence to the spirit, and instills the spirit corresponding to the power of the body.” (Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs - Naphtali 2:2-5).

The wonderful Jewish Zohar explains that “each soul was formed into the exact outline of the body she was destined to tenant." (The Zohar - The Destiny of the Soul)

It is because of this relationship of the spirit to the body that they are both reunited upon the resurrection and in the judgement, the responsibility of the deeds done by the body are shared by the spirit.

“The body says, ‘The spirit sinned, for from the day it separated from me, behold, I have been lying like a silent stone in the grave.’ Also the spirit can say, ‘The body sinned, for from the day I separated from it, behold I have been flying in the air like a bird.”....So the Holy One, blessed be he, brings the spirit and placing it in the body, he also judges them as one. For it is said, ‘He will call to the heavens from above and to the earth, so he might judge his people.’ ‘He will call the heavens from above’ – this to the spirit. ‘And the earth so he might judge his people’ ( from the babylonian talmud, Sanhedrin 91a,b;

The apocryphon of Ezekiel Frag one quotes this same explanation. The example occurs here when a Lame Man is compared to a spirit who cooperates with an otherwise healthy, but Blind man (who is likened unto a body) in a garden. The lame asks to ride on the back of the Blind man and together, they commit offenses. The text continues :

“What did he (the king) do? He made the lame man ride upon the blind and he judged them as one. .So the Holy One, blessed be he, brings the spirit and placing it in the body, he also judges them as one. For it is said, ‘He will call to the heavens from above and to the earth, so he might judge his people.’ ‘He will call to the heavens from above’ – this to the spirit. ‘And the earth so he might judge his people’ –this to the body.” Apocryphon of Ezekiel Frag one, (ch2 - explanation from the Babylonia Talmud, Sanhedrin 91a,b)

POST THREE OF THREE FOLLOWS

 

[Clear]

POST THREE OF THREE

In another version of this story from the Apocryphon of Ezekial, the same story is told thusly.
“What then does the just judge do? Realizing in what manner both had been joined, he places the lame man on the blind man and examines both under the lash. And they are unable to deny; they each convict the other. The lame man on the one hand saying to the blind man, “Did you not carry me and lead me away? And the blind man to the lame, “Did you yourself not become my eyes? In the same way the body is connected to the soul and the soul to the body, to convict (them) of (their) common deeds. And the judgment becomes final for both body and soul, for the works they have done whether good or evil.” Apocryphon of Ezekiel frag 1 vs 6-11;

Not only did the ancients believe in a spirit inside of individuals, they used this underlying belief to explain the relationship between the body and spirit in multiple other ways.

I have pointed out that historicallyl, the Judeo-Christians themselves left us many, many records describing their belief in the doctrine that there is a spirit within individuals that is intelligent and cognizant and independent of the body and they had very mature theology over long periods of time and over large geographical distances that are very consistent and repetitive of this historical fact.

We can read what the earliest Christians themselves say THEY believed by reading THEIR literature and THEIR descriptions about THEIR beliefs and THEIR interpretation of biblical text rather than be dependent upon historically incoherent belief systems created in the later centuries.

Any later religious movement that abandons such early doctrines are simply different religions with different interpretations and different framework of beliefs. This is not to say one is better or worse than the other, merely that they are not the same religions.


Eli G. said : “So, are we JWs believers of any "spiritless theology"? NO, as you can see.” (post #35)
Clear asked : "If you are being serious and this is not a matter of “semantics” or “bait and switch”, then are you saying that in Jehovahs Witness theology teaches that there IS a spirit in an individual that has an existence independent of the body similar to ancient Judeo-Christianity that believed that individuals had spirits within them that existed independent of the physical body (as was pointed out in posts #10, #11, and #12)?

Eli G. Can you answer this question?
I asked it last time we exchanged comments.



Hi [B]@Bree[/B] :

A HISTORICAL PRINCIPLE :
YOU CANNOT SEE OR RECOGNIZE A TEXT YOU HAVE NOT READ

Bree said : “I've read the bible many times and i have not seen 'thousands' of quotes to apocrhypal texts. Would you like to present more then just the one mentioned from the book of Jude?” (post #39)

Yes, we have already determined that you are NOT a religious historian of ancient Christianity and you admit you do not study it’s literature other than the relatively modern, western, protestant type, bible.

Therefore it is only expected that you would not recognize references from other literature which you admit that you do not read or study.

We are not talking about direct "quotes" since some of the literature was written before the protestant version of the new testament and some afterwards. We are often speaking of references to themes and correlations that indicate how the Judeo-Christians used the sacred texts and how they interpreted sacred texts.

IF you decide you would like to see correlations and references regarding what early Judeo-Christians believed and how they interpreted and used some of the early biblical texts, you will need to start studying the early Judeo-Christian literature.

I took a picture of a list from Delemarters JEWISH texts to give you some idea where you might start. I'll see if I can add a couple of pictures of examples.

Below is the first page of Delemarters JEWISH texts that indicate relationships to the biblical text. There are about 90 pages JUST of the Jewish texts and I expect an index of Christian texts would have even more references to textual relationships to Christian literature (Lawrence noted 128 such correlations of relationships just in ethiopic Enoch alone....).

If a full page has 90 references (I counted) and there are even just 87 full pages, then there are 7,830 such correlations in delemarter alone, and only in the Jewish epigraphs alone.
And these are only in those discovered so far.
And these are only those seen important enough to translate.
And these are only those which have been translated to english.
And these are only those appearing in charlesworth.

We are not counting the majority of Jewish literature and we have not even referenced Christian literature yet.

There are THOUSANDS of interconnections.

AN IRRELEVANT POINT
Bree said : “But that does not mean that non christian writings should form a part of Christian scripture”

This deflection is irrelevant since no one so far has argued that they should be part of your canon. What early Judeo-Christian literature represents is THEIR belief and THEIR interpretation of sacred texts and THEIR description of THEIR doctrines instead of YOUR interpretation.

Keep in mind, the earliest Christianity was a different religion than the religion created in relatively modern times by the Jehovahs Witness movement. They are not the same and they should not be expected to be the same. Their beliefs were different and their interpretation of texts were different.


THE JEHOVAHS WITNESS MOVEMENT AS PART OF AN APOSTASY AWAY FROM EARLY CHRISTIAN TEACHING
Bree said : “The Apostles explained that some christians left the faith that they had imparted.”

Yes. Just as early Christianity with its beliefs and interpretation of sacred texts would be viewed as apostasy by the Jehovahs Witness, so also the Jehovahs Witness movement with its abandonment of the doctrine of the spirit and the corruption of the early sacred text would be seen as part of an apostasy by early Christianity. The claim goes both ways.


WHY DO I BELIEVE EARLY CHRISTIAN WRITING REGARDING THEIR BELIEF ACTUALLY REPRESENTS THEIR BELIEFS
Bree asked : “How do you know that the things you are believing in are not from those apostate christians rather then the original teachings of Jesus and his Apostles??”

My belief is that the early Judeo-Christian literature demonstrates that these early Christians believed and this literature shows how they interpreted the sacred texts.

I believe this partly because it is incoherent and irrational to believe the thousands and thousands of witnesses they left regarding their belief does not represent they did not believe what they said they believed.

Why would your belief take priority over the beliefs of the earliest Christians?


Hi @paarsurrey
Paarsurrey quoted @Clear who said : " It was explained that in “spiritless body” J.W. theology, there is no spirit in an individual that has an existence independent of the body. All intelligence, emotions and thoughts reside inside the physical body and once the body dies then all that is part of that body decays and is gone."
Paarsurrey then asked : "Did the JWs quote from Jesus in this regards, please? If yes, then please quote its reference here, please? Right?"

Hi Paarsurrey - I am not quite sure what the context is for your question or if you are actually quoting me and your question is directed at a Jehovah's Witness.

I have not seen such a quote from Jesus and my point was simply that the creation of Jehovahs Witness Theology where an individual is destroyed at death and cannot be resurrected is different than ancient Judeo Christian theology where the individual continues to exist and the original personality is resurrected instead of a copy of the original person.

Clear
σιακσεω

 

[Clear]

Hi @Terrywoodenpic

Terrywoodpic said : "I hardly think it is necessary to go all out on the JW front.
Most people would accept that their interpretation of the scriptures is very much their own."

My original point was simply that the ancient Judeo-Christianity that believed that an intelligent and cognizant spirit inhabited and animated the body of man was different than the later Jehovahs Witness Movement that did not believe an intelligent and cognizant spirit inhabited and animated the body of an individual.

While I am not making a judgment which belief is "better", these competing concepts affect the doctrine of the resurrection.

In the ancient theology where an intelligent, cognizant spirit existed independently of the body, upon resurrection, the original personality and intelligent is resurrected into a new body.

In the modern theory where the old body died and nothing is left of the original person that decomposed, IF God will resurrect a specific person, then he will have to create a copy of the original to save in heaven in a resurrected body.

While the Jehovahs Witnesses have a specific set of interpretations of the biblical text, it is provincial and different than the interpretations of the ancient Judeo-Christians when they read the same texts.

I think this point is clear since the Bree and other Jehovahs Witnesses admit this point (i.e. they are different than the religion in much of the ancient Judeo-Christian literature I presented).


At any rate I hope you have a good spiritual journey

Clear
σιακσεω

 

[Bree]

" It was explained that in “spiritless body” J.W. theology, there is no spirit in an individual that has an existence independent of the body. All intelligence, emotions and thoughts reside inside the physical body and once the body dies then all that is part of that body decays and is gone."

Did the JWs quote from Jesus in this regards, please? If yes, then please quote its reference here, please? Right?

Regards

Our theology on soul/spirit is solidly based on the scriptures.

Ezek. 18:4: “The soul that is sinning—it itself will die.” (RS, NE, KJ, and Dy all render the Hebrew word neʹphesh in this verse as “soul,” thus saying that it is the soul that dies.

Jesus was raised a jew who would have known and believed this teaching from the Prophet Ezekiel. Souls die.

Ps. 146:4: “His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts do perish.” The Hebrew word here translated “spirit” is a derivative of ruʹach. Some translators render it “breath.” When that ruʹach, or active life-force, leaves the body, the person’s thoughts perish; they do not continue in another realm. IOW, the death of the person is a complete death of everything that person was in life. There is no spirit that lives on. Again Jesus was raised with this teaching and belief. He would never have contradicted Gods Word.

Eccl. 3:19-21: “There is an eventuality as respects the sons of mankind and an eventuality as respects the beast, and they have the same eventuality. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit, so that there is no superiority of the man over the beast, for everything is vanity. All are going to one place. They have all come to be from the dust, and they are all returning to the dust.
We are exactly the same as the animals. We all have 'but one spirit' we have all 'come from the dust' and we all 'return to the dust'
The bible cannot be any more clear then that! Jesus was raised with this teaching and belief, he would never contradict God.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Our theology on soul/spirit is solidly based on the scriptures.

Ezek. 18:4: “The soul that is sinning—it itself will die.” (RS, NE, KJ, and Dy all render the Hebrew word neʹphesh in this verse as “soul,” thus saying that it is the soul that dies.

Jesus was raised a jew who would have known and believed this teaching from the Prophet Ezekiel. Souls die.

Ps. 146:4: “His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts do perish.” The Hebrew word here translated “spirit” is a derivative of ruʹach. Some translators render it “breath.” When that ruʹach, or active life-force, leaves the body, the person’s thoughts perish; they do not continue in another realm. IOW, the death of the person is a complete death of everything that person was in life. There is no spirit that lives on. Again Jesus was raised with this teaching and belief. He would never have contradicted Gods Word.

Eccl. 3:19-21: “There is an eventuality as respects the sons of mankind and an eventuality as respects the beast, and they have the same eventuality. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit, so that there is no superiority of the man over the beast, for everything is vanity. All are going to one place. They have all come to be from the dust, and they are all returning to the dust.
We are exactly the same as the animals. We all have 'but one spirit' we have all 'come from the dust' and we all 'return to the dust'
The bible cannot be any more clear then that! Jesus was raised with this teaching and belief, he would never contradict God.

Then the resurrection of the dead as taught by Jesus contradicts God.

 

[paarsurrey]

Our theology on soul/spirit is solidly based on the scriptures.

Ezek. 18:4: “The soul that is sinning—it itself will die.” (RS, NE, KJ, and Dy all render the Hebrew word neʹphesh in this verse as “soul,” thus saying that it is the soul that dies.

Jesus was raised a jew who would have known and believed this teaching from the Prophet Ezekiel. Souls die.

Ps. 146:4: “His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts do perish.” The Hebrew word here translated “spirit” is a derivative of ruʹach. Some translators render it “breath.” When that ruʹach, or active life-force, leaves the body, the person’s thoughts perish; they do not continue in another realm. IOW, the death of the person is a complete death of everything that person was in life. There is no spirit that lives on. Again Jesus was raised with this teaching and belief. He would never have contradicted Gods Word.

Eccl. 3:19-21: “There is an eventuality as respects the sons of mankind and an eventuality as respects the beast, and they have the same eventuality. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit, so that there is no superiority of the man over the beast, for everything is vanity. All are going to one place. They have all come to be from the dust, and they are all returning to the dust.
We are exactly the same as the animals. We all have 'but one spirit' we have all 'come from the dust' and we all 'return to the dust'
The bible cannot be any more clear then that! Jesus was raised with this teaching and belief, he would never contradict God.

Does this soul/spirit/ruʹach die with the physical death of an individual, and or is this spirit seen by the family friends living who have not yet died, please? Right?

Regards

 

[Bree]

Then the resurrection of the dead as taught by Jesus contradicts God.

what do you think a resurrection is/means?

 

[Bree]

Does this soul/spirit/ruʹach die with the physical death of an individual, and or is this spirit seen by the family friends living who have not yet died, please? Right?

Regards

a living person IS a soul

 

[Clear]

@paarsurrey said : "Does this soul/spirit/ruʹach die with the physical death of an individual, and or is this spirit seen by the family friends living who have not yet died, please? Right?" (post #47)

Hi Paarsurrey

The semantics may be getting in the way here.

1) The "body", the "spirit" and the "soul" - distinctions in early Judeo-Christianity
In early Judeo-Christianity, the "spirit" was the animating intelligence and center of thought and emotions that animated the body.
The body without a spirit was lifeless.
The "soul" was the living person which was a combination of a body AND spirit. (the spirit alone was not a "soul" and the body alone was not a "soul" but it was the combination that was a living soul)

Thus, the early Jews and Christians interpreted this to mean that the "soul" (body and spirit combination) could die, but the "spirit" (or "ru'ach) lived on independent of the body.

2) Ancient Judaism and Christianity describe the state of spirits after their bodies died
For example, the Jewish talmud has multiple wonderful stories about the spirits whose bodies have died and what these spirits were doing in the world of spirits after their bodies died and while they were awaiting the resurrection (which was a "re-surrection" or a "rising up again" where their spirit would re-unite with a glorified body).

Similarly, the Christian literature has many, many, wonderful stories describing the state of spirits in the spirit world after their bodies had died and they were awaiting resurrection.

This is different than the more modern Jehovahs Witness interpretation that the "soul" is the combination of a "body" having "breath" (or a "living body") which could die (but which had no cognizant, intelligent and independent spirit that lived on after death in a world of spirits).


3) Translations sometimes do not distinguish "spirit" from "soul"
The semantics are important since OFTEN translators and laymen discuss the "soul" when they actually mean the "spirit". Other translators are more careful.

For example, E. Isaac, in his translation of Ethiopic Enoch makes this distinction when the Prophet Enoch is inspecting the world of spirits where the spirits of those who have died await the resurrection.

The text reads "These beautiful corners are here in order that the spirits of the souls of the dead should assemble into them..." but later uses "souls" for "spirits" when translating "they are created that the souls of the children of the people should gather here....until the day of their judgment.."

Later he refers correctly to usage when the Prophet Enoch says "I saw the spirits of the children of the people who were dead..." (1 Enoch 22)

I actually agree with the Jehovahs Witnesses on the point that a "soul" is not, technically, the same as a "spirit", but the two words are often used to mean the same thing and because of this, often translators render "spirit" as "soul".

Good journey Paarsurrey.


Clear
ακφυφιω

 

[David Davidovich]

I dont think that provides conclusive proof that Jude quoted from the apochrypal book of enoch.

That account about enoch would have been well known to people of the Jewish faith and there is evidence that they had oral stories handed down from generation to generation. The story about Enoch may have included such a statement as a judgement against the wicked. There is another example of Paul naming the two egyption priests from the days of Moses yet those names are not mentioned in the bible.

So its really circumstantial and Jude could have got the information from other sources,.... perhaps the writer of the book got the information from the same source as jude.

Hello, Bree. But not according to Orthodox, conservative Jews and Torah based Torath Mosheh Jews. See this video link at 39:28 through 43:06.

And for those of you who do not like clicking on links, here is the embedded video.

Also, you are welcome to join the discussion in the Religious Q&A subforum starting here at post #13.

 

[YoursTrue]

@paarsurrey said : "Does this soul/spirit/ruʹach die with the physical death of an individual, and or is this spirit seen by the family friends living who have not yet died, please? Right?" (post #47)

Hi Paarsurrey

The semantics may be getting in the way here.

1) The "body", the "spirit" and the "soul" - distinctions in early Judeo-Christianity
In early Judeo-Christianity, the "spirit" was the animating intelligence and center of thought and emotions that animated the body.
The body without a spirit was lifeless.
The "soul" was the living person which was a combination of a body AND spirit. (the spirit alone was not a "soul" and the body alone was not a "soul" but it was the combination that was a living soul)

Thus, the early Jews and Christians interpreted this to mean that the "soul" (body and spirit combination) could die, but the "spirit" (or "ru'ach) lived on independent of the body.

2) Ancient Judaism and Christianity describe the state of spirits after their bodies died
For example, the Jewish talmud has multiple wonderful stories about the spirits whose bodies have died and what these spirits were doing in the world of spirits after their bodies died and while they were awaiting the resurrection (which was a "re-surrection" or a "rising up again" where their spirit would re-unite with a glorified body).

Similarly, the Christian literature has many, many, wonderful stories describing the state of spirits in the spirit world after their bodies had died and they were awaiting resurrection.

This is different than the more modern Jehovahs Witness interpretation that the "soul" is the combination of a "body" having "breath" (or a "living body") which could die (but which had no cognizant, intelligent and independent spirit that lived on after death in a world of spirits).


3) Translations sometimes do not distinguish "spirit" from "soul"
The semantics are important since OFTEN translators and laymen discuss the "soul" when they actually mean the "spirit". Other translators are more careful.

For example, E. Isaac, in his translation of Ethiopic Enoch makes this distinction when the Prophet Enoch is inspecting the world of spirits where the spirits of those who have died await the resurrection.

The text reads "These beautiful corners are here in order that the spirits of the souls of the dead should assemble into them..." but later uses "souls" for "spirits" when translating "they are created that the souls of the children of the people should gather here....until the day of their judgment.."

Later he refers correctly to usage when the Prophet Enoch says "I saw the spirits of the children of the people who were dead..." (1 Enoch 22)

I actually agree with the Jehovahs Witnesses on the point that a "soul" is not, technically, the same as a "spirit", but the two words are often used to mean the same thing and because of this, often translators render "spirit" as "soul".

Good journey Paarsurrey.


Clear
ακφυφιω

In some points I agree with you. A soul is not the same in all senses as a spirit. I am so glad I studied with Jehovah's Witnesses which freed me from ideas that did not and do not make sense to me, even though some form of reasoning may be used to substantiate these ideas by those promoting those ideas -- such as the idea that a "good soul" goes to heaven, but a "bad soul" burns in literal fire forever. Never believed it, and stll do not. So glad I studied and still do with Jehovah's Witnesses.

 

[David Davidovich]

In some points I agree with you. A soul is not the same in all senses as a spirit. I am so glad I studied with Jehovah's Witnesses which freed me from ideas that did not and do not make sense to me, even though some form of reasoning may be used to substantiate these ideas by those promoting those ideas -- such as the idea that a "good soul" goes to heaven, but a "bad soul" burns in literal fire forever. Never believed it, and stll do not. So glad I studied and still do with Jehovah's Witnesses.

Well, what I think is interesting about your comment, YoursTrue, is that a lot of the pagan stuff that Jehovah's Witnesses have taken out of their version of Christianity makes them more similar to Jews and makes their version of Christianity a bit more similar to Torath Mosheh Jews based on information that I have been learning from @Ehav4Ever in this Religions Q&A forum.

Also, I have come to the conclusion that people are drawn to what makes the most sense to them, however, to Jehovah's Witnesses, that merits them as being the world's true religion while it merits all other religions as being part of Babylon the Great, the world empire of false religion as described at Revelation 17.

 

[David Davidovich]

Also, I have come to the conclusion that people are drawn to what makes the most sense to them, however, to Jehovah's Witnesses, that merits them as being the world's true religion while it merits all other religions as being part of Babylon the Great, the world empire of false religion as described at Revelation 17.

Actually, it would have been better if I had said: the world empire of false religion as interpretated by Jehovah's Witnesses at Revelation 17.

 

[Clear]

In some points I agree with you. A soul is not the same in all senses as a spirit. I am so glad I studied with Jehovah's Witnesses which freed me from ideas that did not and do not make sense to me, even though some form of reasoning may be used to substantiate these ideas by those promoting those ideas -- such as the idea that a "good soul" goes to heaven, but a "bad soul" burns in literal fire forever. Never believed it, and stll do not. So glad I studied and still do with Jehovah's Witnesses.

Hi @YoursTrue

I also agree with the specific Jehovahs Witness concept that the spirit is not the same as a soul.
The ancient Judeo-Christianity and it's belief that a spirit exists inside the body were the two parts that make up a living soul attest to this distinction as well.

The main distinction is that in the earliest Judeo-Christian literature, it is clear that they believed that a spirit existed inside the body and that the spirit was the location of intelligence and emotions and cognisance for the body.

I hope your spiritual journey continues to be satisfying and a joyful one @YoursTrue

Clear
εισινεσιω

 

[YoursTrue]

Hi @YoursTrue

I also agree with the specific Jehovahs Witness concept that the spirit is not the same as a soul.
The ancient Judeo-Christianity and it's belief that a spirit exists inside the body were the two parts that make up a living soul attest to this distinction as well.

The main distinction is that in the earliest Judeo-Christian literature, it is clear that they believed that a spirit existed inside the body and that the spirit was the location of intelligence and emotions and cognisance for the body.

I hope your spiritual journey continues to be satisfying and a joyful one @YoursTrue

Clear
εισινεσιω

Yes, it continues to be refreshing. There are always dangers and letdowns but I believe one day it will be over, in other words, nothing but good. Revelation 21:1-4 bears this out. Thanks for your nice words.

 

[Superman7]

My question seeks to compare Christian theology that believes in an intelligent spirit placed into a body with Christian theology that believes there is no spirit inside the biological body.


I was sent and read a pamphlet sent to me from a Jehovahs Witness friend regarding the world mankind will ultimately live in should they make it into God’s kingdom after this life. My question regards what happens to the mentally incapable in Jehovah’s Witness theology?


1) The context of the question in “spirit & body” vs “spiritless body” theology :

In a religious debates thread the concept came up regarding the ultimate status of those who died and were later resurrected and ended up “saved” in God’s kingdom in the context of J.W. theology (hereafter called “spiritless body theology”.)

It was explained that in “spiritless body” J.W. theology, there is no spirit in an individual that has an existence independent of the body. All intelligence, emotions and thoughts reside inside the physical body and once the body dies then all that is part of that body decays and is gone.

This is different than the Theology that believes in an intelligent and cognizant spirit that exists independent of the body it is placed in (hereafter called “spirit& body theology”). In “spirit & body” theology, the body may die and decay after death but the spirit with it’s attendant characteristics such as intelligence and emotion and memories continues on just as when the body was alive.


2) The resurrection in “spirit & Body” vs “spiritless body” theology

It was further explained that, in “spiritless body” Jehovahs Witness version of this theology, if that deceased is among those who are ultimately “saved” in God’s kingdom, God will then create (or re-create) that person who died and place within this second body all the memories and characteristics that had been associated with the first body that had been created. (i.e. an exact duplicate of the first person who lived and died and whose body decayed).


In the case of the mentally incapable (those without sufficient mental functioning to make moral choices, store memories, create typical relationships, etc., If they are among those who died but are resurrected and are saved, will God simply reproduce the copy of the person with defects included (I suspect not), or will he create another person similar to the prior defective person but without the same mental defects and save this different person?


In ancient (and most modern) “spirit & body” Christian theology, there is a spirit placed into each person which is immortal and separate from the body. In this model, the spirit itself may have no defect but the bodily manifestations of mental incapacities are with the body it inhabits.

In this case, the intelligent spirit can remain the same in the resurrection and it is merely the body which is modified and changed to allow for the resurrected person to manifest normal characteristics.


In “spiritless body” theology such as the Jehovahs Witness version (if there are other Christian versions?) if God modifies the “spiritless body” in the resurrection, then it is a different person with different characteristics that is being saved, (and not the original).

In typical “spirit & body” of early Christianity, this sort of conundrum does not exist. The original spirit whose body was defective is simply given a perfect body and thus, the original spirit with it’s original identity is saved.


Is there a Jehovahs Witness who can explain how this might work inside “spiritless body” theology. That is, is the original person with mental incapacities re-created after death with the same mental incapacities (and thus the original personality is saved) or will God change the mental status and recreate a different personality and intelligence and emotional being to save in the place of the defective one?



Thank you for

My question seeks to compare Christian theology that believes in an intelligent spirit placed into a body with Christian theology that believes there is no spirit inside the biological body.


I was sent and read a pamphlet sent to me from a Jehovahs Witness friend regarding the world mankind will ultimately live in should they make it into God’s kingdom after this life. My question regards what happens to the mentally incapable in Jehovah’s Witness theology?


1) The context of the question in “spirit & body” vs “spiritless body” theology :

In a religious debates thread the concept came up regarding the ultimate status of those who died and were later resurrected and ended up “saved” in God’s kingdom in the context of J.W. theology (hereafter called “spiritless body theology”.)

It was explained that in “spiritless body” J.W. theology, there is no spirit in an individual that has an existence independent of the body. All intelligence, emotions and thoughts reside inside the physical body and once the body dies then all that is part of that body decays and is gone.

This is different than the Theology that believes in an intelligent and cognizant spirit that exists independent of the body it is placed in (hereafter called “spirit& body theology”). In “spirit & body” theology, the body may die and decay after death but the spirit with it’s attendant characteristics such as intelligence and emotion and memories continues on just as when the body was alive.


2) The resurrection in “spirit & Body” vs “spiritless body” theology

It was further explained that, in “spiritless body” Jehovahs Witness version of this theology, if that deceased is among those who are ultimately “saved” in God’s kingdom, God will then create (or re-create) that person who died and place within this second body all the memories and characteristics that had been associated with the first body that had been created. (i.e. an exact duplicate of the first person who lived and died and whose body decayed).


In the case of the mentally incapable (those without sufficient mental functioning to make moral choices, store memories, create typical relationships, etc., If they are among those who died but are resurrected and are saved, will God simply reproduce the copy of the person with defects included (I suspect not), or will he create another person similar to the prior defective person but without the same mental defects and save this different person?


In ancient (and most modern) “spirit & body” Christian theology, there is a spirit placed into each person which is immortal and separate from the body. In this model, the spirit itself may have no defect but the bodily manifestations of mental incapacities are with the body it inhabits.

In this case, the intelligent spirit can remain the same in the resurrection and it is merely the body which is modified and changed to allow for the resurrected person to manifest normal characteristics.


In “spiritless body” theology such as the Jehovahs Witness version (if there are other Christian versions?) if God modifies the “spiritless body” in the resurrection, then it is a different person with different characteristics that is being saved, (and not the original).

In typical “spirit & body” of early Christianity, this sort of conundrum does not exist. The original spirit whose body was defective is simply given a perfect body and thus, the original spirit with it’s original identity is saved.


Is there a Jehovahs Witness who can explain how this might work inside “spiritless body” theology. That is, is the original person with mental incapacities re-created after death with the same mental incapacities (and thus the original personality is saved) or will God change the mental status and recreate a different personality and intelligence and emotional being to save in the place of the defective one?



Thank you for any explanations that you can give.

Clear
τζ

I bet you spent alot of time on this..Your explanations are like going thru doors never having the time to stop and think. Going in and out the same door. You purposely make no sense. The purpose of your post is for you to realize that you need a Bible study. Way much simpler and there is progress. I can teach you the first lesson. Learning always feels good especially if it's something spiritual. Let me know. Goodnite

 

[YoursTrue]

My question seeks to compare Christian theology that believes in an intelligent spirit placed into a body with Christian theology that believes there is no spirit inside the biological body.


I was sent and read a pamphlet sent to me from a Jehovahs Witness friend regarding the world mankind will ultimately live in should they make it into God’s kingdom after this life. My question regards what happens to the mentally incapable in Jehovah’s Witness theology?


1) The context of the question in “spirit & body” vs “spiritless body” theology :

In a religious debates thread the concept came up regarding the ultimate status of those who died and were later resurrected and ended up “saved” in God’s kingdom in the context of J.W. theology (hereafter called “spiritless body theology”.)

It was explained that in “spiritless body” J.W. theology, there is no spirit in an individual that has an existence independent of the body. All intelligence, emotions and thoughts reside inside the physical body and once the body dies then all that is part of that body decays and is gone.

This is different than the Theology that believes in an intelligent and cognizant spirit that exists independent of the body it is placed in (hereafter called “spirit& body theology”). In “spirit & body” theology, the body may die and decay after death but the spirit with it’s attendant characteristics such as intelligence and emotion and memories continues on just as when the body was alive.


2) The resurrection in “spirit & Body” vs “spiritless body” theology

It was further explained that, in “spiritless body” Jehovahs Witness version of this theology, if that deceased is among those who are ultimately “saved” in God’s kingdom, God will then create (or re-create) that person who died and place within this second body all the memories and characteristics that had been associated with the first body that had been created. (i.e. an exact duplicate of the first person who lived and died and whose body decayed).


In the case of the mentally incapable (those without sufficient mental functioning to make moral choices, store memories, create typical relationships, etc., If they are among those who died but are resurrected and are saved, will God simply reproduce the copy of the person with defects included (I suspect not), or will he create another person similar to the prior defective person but without the same mental defects and save this different person?


In ancient (and most modern) “spirit & body” Christian theology, there is a spirit placed into each person which is immortal and separate from the body. In this model, the spirit itself may have no defect but the bodily manifestations of mental incapacities are with the body it inhabits.

In this case, the intelligent spirit can remain the same in the resurrection and it is merely the body which is modified and changed to allow for the resurrected person to manifest normal characteristics.


In “spiritless body” theology such as the Jehovahs Witness version (if there are other Christian versions?) if God modifies the “spiritless body” in the resurrection, then it is a different person with different characteristics that is being saved, (and not the original).

In typical “spirit & body” of early Christianity, this sort of conundrum does not exist. The original spirit whose body was defective is simply given a perfect body and thus, the original spirit with it’s original identity is saved.


Is there a Jehovahs Witness who can explain how this might work inside “spiritless body” theology. That is, is the original person with mental incapacities re-created after death with the same mental incapacities (and thus the original personality is saved) or will God change the mental status and recreate a different personality and intelligence and emotional being to save in the place of the defective one?



Thank you for any explanations that you can give.

Clear
τζ

All forms of incapacitation including mental illness are understood by God. Therefore, He makes the decision (or judgment) as to who will be healed and live in a peaceful new world. Revelation 21:1-5 explains this. There are other scriptures as well showing that one day this earth is going to be as God intended it to be at the beginning before sin entered the world. No more sickness and no more death. What a wonderful prospect to look forward to.

 

[Superman7]

My question seeks to compare Christian theology that believes in an intelligent spirit placed into a body with Christian theology that believes there is no spirit inside the biological body.


I was sent and read a pamphlet sent to me from a Jehovahs Witness friend regarding the world mankind will ultimately live in should they make it into God’s kingdom after this life. My question regards what happens to the mentally incapable in Jehovah’s Witness theology?


1) The context of the question in “spirit & body” vs “spiritless body” theology :

In a religious debates thread the concept came up regarding the ultimate status of those who died and were later resurrected and ended up “saved” in God’s kingdom in the context of J.W. theology (hereafter called “spiritless body theology”.)

It was explained that in “spiritless body” J.W. theology, there is no spirit in an individual that has an existence independent of the body. All intelligence, emotions and thoughts reside inside the physical body and once the body dies then all that is part of that body decays and is gone.

This is different than the Theology that believes in an intelligent and cognizant spirit that exists independent of the body it is placed in (hereafter called “spirit& body theology”). In “spirit & body” theology, the body may die and decay after death but the spirit with it’s attendant characteristics such as intelligence and emotion and memories continues on just as when the body was alive.


2) The resurrection in “spirit & Body” vs “spiritless body” theology

It was further explained that, in “spiritless body” Jehovahs Witness version of this theology, if that deceased is among those who are ultimately “saved” in God’s kingdom, God will then create (or re-create) that person who died and place within this second body all the memories and characteristics that had been associated with the first body that had been created. (i.e. an exact duplicate of the first person who lived and died and whose body decayed).


In the case of the mentally incapable (those without sufficient mental functioning to make moral choices, store memories, create typical relationships, etc., If they are among those who died but are resurrected and are saved, will God simply reproduce the copy of the person with defects included (I suspect not), or will he create another person similar to the prior defective person but without the same mental defects and save this different person?


In ancient (and most modern) “spirit & body” Christian theology, there is a spirit placed into each person which is immortal and separate from the body. In this model, the spirit itself may have no defect but the bodily manifestations of mental incapacities are with the body it inhabits.

In this case, the intelligent spirit can remain the same in the resurrection and it is merely the body which is modified and changed to allow for the resurrected person to manifest normal characteristics.


In “spiritless body” theology such as the Jehovahs Witness version (if there are other Christian versions?) if God modifies the “spiritless body” in the resurrection, then it is a different person with different characteristics that is being saved, (and not the original).

In typical “spirit & body” of early Christianity, this sort of conundrum does not exist. The original spirit whose body was defective is simply given a perfect body and thus, the original spirit with it’s original identity is saved.


Is there a Jehovahs Witness who can explain how this might work inside “spiritless body” theology. That is, is the original person with mental incapacities re-created after death with the same mental incapacities (and thus the original personality is saved) or will God change the mental status and recreate a different personality and intelligence and emotional being to save in the place of the defective one?



Thank you for

My question seeks to compare Christian theology that believes in an intelligent spirit placed into a body with Christian theology that believes there is no spirit inside the biological body.


I was sent and read a pamphlet sent to me from a Jehovahs Witness friend regarding the world mankind will ultimately live in should they make it into God’s kingdom after this life. My question regards what happens to the mentally incapable in Jehovah’s Witness theology?


1) The context of the question in “spirit & body” vs “spiritless body” theology :

In a religious debates thread the concept came up regarding the ultimate status of those who died and were later resurrected and ended up “saved” in God’s kingdom in the context of J.W. theology (hereafter called “spiritless body theology”.)

It was explained that in “spiritless body” J.W. theology, there is no spirit in an individual that has an existence independent of the body. All intelligence, emotions and thoughts reside inside the physical body and once the body dies then all that is part of that body decays and is gone.

This is different than the Theology that believes in an intelligent and cognizant spirit that exists independent of the body it is placed in (hereafter called “spirit& body theology”). In “spirit & body” theology, the body may die and decay after death but the spirit with it’s attendant characteristics such as intelligence and emotion and memories continues on just as when the body was alive.


2) The resurrection in “spirit & Body” vs “spiritless body” theology

It was further explained that, in “spiritless body” Jehovahs Witness version of this theology, if that deceased is among those who are ultimately “saved” in God’s kingdom, God will then create (or re-create) that person who died and place within this second body all the memories and characteristics that had been associated with the first body that had been created. (i.e. an exact duplicate of the first person who lived and died and whose body decayed).


In the case of the mentally incapable (those without sufficient mental functioning to make moral choices, store memories, create typical relationships, etc., If they are among those who died but are resurrected and are saved, will God simply reproduce the copy of the person with defects included (I suspect not), or will he create another person similar to the prior defective person but without the same mental defects and save this different person?


In ancient (and most modern) “spirit & body” Christian theology, there is a spirit placed into each person which is immortal and separate from the body. In this model, the spirit itself may have no defect but the bodily manifestations of mental incapacities are with the body it inhabits.

In this case, the intelligent spirit can remain the same in the resurrection and it is merely the body which is modified and changed to allow for the resurrected person to manifest normal characteristics.


In “spiritless body” theology such as the Jehovahs Witness version (if there are other Christian versions?) if God modifies the “spiritless body” in the resurrection, then it is a different person with different characteristics that is being saved, (and not the original).

In typical “spirit & body” of early Christianity, this sort of conundrum does not exist. The original spirit whose body was defective is simply given a perfect body and thus, the original spirit with it’s original identity is saved.


Is there a Jehovahs Witness who can explain how this might work inside “spiritless body” theology. That is, is the original person with mental incapacities re-created after death with the same mental incapacities (and thus the original personality is saved) or will God change the mental status and recreate a different personality and intelligence and emotional being to save in the place of the defective one?



Thank you for any explanations that you can give.

Clear
τζ

Jesus Christ said I am the life, the truth and the way. He also said I came not to being peace on earth but a sword. Even your enemies are those in your own household..He also said if they hated me they will hate you also. Having studied the four gospels with the help of Jehovahs God active force it helped me to devevlope and understand the same mental attitude. English only The mind of Christ. Only then you would realize for example. Jesus Christ said the day of one's death was more important bc of what was left behind..What was left behind was the work that Jehovah God set out for his son to finish. The preaching of the good news. So what happens when the focus is on Jesus Christ as a child? You think maybe Jesus Christ wants you to preach the good news or check every light bulb on the Christmas tree? The mind of Christ remember.. Those of you who have something negative to say about Jesus only bc you worship Satan have no idea how smart Jesus Christ is. Look..Santa.. S a t a n..
Look..Christmas..X-Mas..It's your kids isnt it? There spoiled. I am real spoiled too and Im in my 40s. Way better to be a Jehovahs Witnesses..We love you up there.. He died for our sins. For the sinner. To lead the sinner back to God and begging him for his forgiveness all the way back telling him how its not fair..It's not fair..Thankyou so much Jehovah God and Jesus Christ bc that's me right there.. Its beyond me why some of you look to Satan as your God. Maybe you like his name. Well..His Father Jehovah God changed it when he changed our plans. I'm trying hard not to laugh.. However. I know that you know what I know bc you know..You wanna be different? Is that the effect Satan has on you. How about Jehovah God. He looks at what's inside. He saw how beautifully my inside parts were and messed around in there and gave me something that no human being can give to another. The ability to sing like Julio Englesias.. No..No.. The ability to sing every song I heard just to bring happiness and joy in my life when I wanted or needed it the most.. You want Michael Boltons When a man loves a woman okay. But since I'm from West Texas I got this country sound.. That is all Jehovah God desires to do on a personal level is to make a difference in your life and protect you from Satan and his demons.. Did I veer off or something?. No. Okay.. Don't want to make it about me but wanting to boast in Jehovah God. I have alot of enemies right now that rob my peace everywhere I go. The love of my life tried to kill me..My mother tried to kill me..My aunt as well.. And a hand full of others both flesh and spirit.. While hanging around Jehovah God and his son I hadn't realized that it's been seven years later since they started.. Half the time I was too busy to even notice I think..Too busy fighting with Satan I would find myself stuck somewhere..Two hours to get home.. Sun's coming up and I'm not riding my road bike home I'm walking my road bike home.. I know now how Jesus Christ felt when he said he had no place to call home or lay his head down. I don't know about you but I'm going with Jesus Christ. Now what was this topic about again? Oh yeah.. We ain't gonna do all that..Your tactic is designed to have no agreement whatsoever. Just to keep on going when there's no point..Kinda yelling you something there buddy.. laters