Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
I guess that's another way of saying, "I don't know the answer to your question." Okay, well thanks anyway.
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resurrection
- Thread starter olson5256
- Start date
Berachiah Ben Yisrael
Active Member
Berachiah Ben Yisrael
Active Member
Have you got a KJV? No offence but I doubt you will find the answer in the book of mormon.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Yes, it's the Bible I generally use. Can you direct me to the chapter and verse I asked for, or don't you know the answer either?
No offense taken. Why would I expect to find the answer in the Book of Mormon anyway?
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
That brings to mind something Goethe once said: "Men show their character in nothing more clearly than by what they think laughable."LOLOLOLOLOL.........Now be nice.I almost wet my pants.
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
First let's clarify something here. I believe the words are written in the book and just because they are written doesn't make them true. Let's face it...we're talking about mere interpretations but the difference here is you seem to be pulling more out of the event than what actually happened. Another thing I'd like you to know is that I'm not new to this. I understand fully well what the book says and how it says it. Just because I don't agree with your consensus interpretation doesn't mean I don't understand.
We are not talking about Paul's (supposed) vision on the road. We are talking about the appearance to the disciples. That appearance to them was of a man who was not dead, was in human form, showed and gave proof that he was physically alive and further proven to them due to his hunger for food. If you believe that this supposed (Man/God) can conquer death but not hunger then believe what you will. I'm simply showing that those passages of him appearing to them and him proving to them that he was flesh and bone as well as having an appetite was a clean sign that he was no spirit. As a matter of biblical (fact), cause you know.. facts can be pesky little irritants, he explicitly tells them he was not a spirit....but yet...regardless what is written..people are still going around claiming his supposed ressurection was.......
I can show you where it is said that the beloved disciple of Jesus was there with the mother of Jesus who was Mary the wife of Cleopas, can you show me where there are any other of the disciples as having been recorded as witnesses of the crucifiction? I can show you that it is said that the disciples were afaid of the authorities and that it was only after they were convinced that he had been resurrected, that the authorities posed no threat to them. Can you show me where they were not afraid, cowering in a dimly lit room discussing what they would do now that their master was dead?
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Maybe it's that we don't all understand the word "spirit" in the same way. The fact that Jesus had a body of flesh and bone does not preclude the possibility that this physical body was occupied by a spirit. A spirit can exist as a cognizant entity either independently of a physical body or residing within a physical body. Jesus never said He wasn't a spirit. He merely pointed out that had He had flesh and bone, meaning that His spirit had returned to His body, giving it new life. That is, after all, the meaning of the word "resurrection."
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
I'm not sure, in this thread, I actually said he was never crucified. As far as the book goes...did he get "crucified"...Yep....as far as the information in the book of his death...I'm not so sure......But that was a subject for a thread long ago.
The OP assumes or believes the resurrection happened but was unclear as to why a physical body was necessary.
My position is he appeared to the disciples alive with his same physical body offering proof to them by requesting they touch and handle him. He further proves to them he was not dead, contrary to the rumors, nor is he a ghost (spirit). He explicitly tells them he has flesh and bone because spirits don't have flesh and bone. He further proves to them....And I'm not even sure he was "trying to prove anything to then...when he asked them was there anything there to eat. I think this fully living man was simply hungry.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Thanks, but I already know where to find that.
The Bible doesn't mention many of the people who witnessed the crucifixion by name. You have made the assumption that none of Jesus' followers were there when He died. I haven't come to the same conclusion, even though I agree with you that His followers were obviously afraid.
No I can't, but if you can, I'm still willing to listen.
Berachiah Ben Yisrael
Active Member
Good, you should listen to this Goethe..............
It doesn't take a rocket scientist nor a brain surgeon to see
That Peter (Kefa) denied Yahshua 3 times before the **** crowed and he said he would die with him before he would deny him along with all the other disciples. Scripture shows that he did deny him being afraid of his own fleshly body and the others were no where to be found. They were hiding behind locked doors as was the case when Yahshua appeared to them as if he had to walk through walls because of the door being closed. They were scared to death that they also would be found guilty by association and put to death as well.
Mat 26:33-35 -and - 69-75
Why didnt all of them go to the sepulcher to see that he has risen? Why were they behind closed doors? Why weren't they there fighting for Yahshua and trying to change the minds of those that would have him dead? Why? They were scared to death for their own hides.
Joh 20:19 When therefore it was evening, on that day, the first day of the week, and when the doors were locked where the disciples were assembled, for fear of the Hebrews, Yahshua came and stood in the midst, and said to them, "Peace be to you."
Oh and Poor little kitty kitty. I so sorry if you got all your fur in a bunch over what I found funny. I didn't mean to offend you. Truce?:sorry1:
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
Maybe...or just maybe it's not as deep as people are making it out to be. As the disciples and other people were breaking bread Yeshua was amongst them in the crowed. He spoke to them with a greeting. They were afraid and didn't understand because they were led to believe he was dead. The mention of "spirit" first came from them because they thought he was dead and they thought they were seeing a spirit. He merely informs them he is not becuase he is alive and hungry.
Then the question still remains...If he could accomplish his task (giving them some information)..then why the physical body. The bible has plenty of instances of people appearing in spiritual form needing no flesh and bones. In those few lines in Luke I see a man who is alive, hiding and hungry. Rumors of his death have been exaggertated.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Yes, I am well aware that Peter denied knowing Jesus three times within a matter of hours. He was clearly afraid of the consequences. Nevertheless, we know for sure that John the Beloved was at the crucifixion and I would imagine he was also afraid. He was a witness to Christ's death and the scriptures don't specifically say where the others were.
Poor kitty? You don't know me very well, do you?
Sure, why not. It's only a discussion forum.
Jordan St. Francis
Well-Known Member
Dirty Penguin
That is, how did the myth of the resurrection perpetuate when it was so clear that he was simply a hungry man that had never been crucified after all? What do we do, for example, with the Ascension of Christ [historically taken as the fact this man was gone]? How do people run around preaching a resurrected being when he still standing there exactly like the rest of us? Did Jesus run and hide? And were the Apostles aware of this? If so, how did they form a faith based on something they plainly would have known, even secretly, to be a fraud?
That's interesting, but then we are at something of a loss to explain how the Christian movement ever started. That is, if we assume for the moment like some of the scholars, that what Jesus taught did not regard himself (ie. maybe he taught his own brand of Jewish eschatology, or a Jewish stoic moralism, but certainly not Christology), then how do we get this movement from Jesus the prophet/ Jesus the teacher, to a religious movement convinced that this person had fulfilled the history of Israel in his death and resurrection?
That is, how did the myth of the resurrection perpetuate when it was so clear that he was simply a hungry man that had never been crucified after all? What do we do, for example, with the Ascension of Christ [historically taken as the fact this man was gone]? How do people run around preaching a resurrected being when he still standing there exactly like the rest of us? Did Jesus run and hide? And were the Apostles aware of this? If so, how did they form a faith based on something they plainly would have known, even secretly, to be a fraud?
Jordan St. Francis
Well-Known Member
Which instances? I can think of when Saul summoned up the spirit of Samuel, which was seen as a sin.
I already answered that question in this thread he it is again:
When Iesos Christos (Jesus the Christ) was killed his body died literally. His spirit did not cease to exist because His spirit is part of the Divine GOD. When He was ressurected physically he was given a new body even though He was ressurected into the remains of the same body. He resurrected physically because GOD's entire plan and purpose for humanity is to ultimately resurrect HIS Elect physically and spiritually into HIS Divine Family. The physical ressurection of Christ was given by GOD to mankind of HIS ultimate ability and faithfulness that HE can and will do what HE has promised to mankind. When Christ was resurrected humanity was given a physical record of the true ressurection of a human being in exact accordance with the fulfillment of biblical prophecy regarding the Messiah and ressurections. For those Apostles and disciples who were able to see Him, they were given an incredible assurance that GOD will do exactly as HE promised- An actual physical ressurrection of the mass of humanity will occur prior to the fulfillment of GODs plan and purpose to and for humanity. The first of these ressurrections will occur for the elect, then for the mass of humanity, and finally for the wicked dead who will then face destruction.
Berachiah Ben Yisrael
Active Member
No it doesn't say spe, spe, specifically but we do see where..........
Mat 26:56 But all this has happened, that the Scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled." Then all the disciples left him, and fled.
Mar 14:50 They all left him, and fled.
Now do we really need to go into the meaning of the word "fled" or do we have a grasp on it. They fled for their lives and hid themselves from anyone that they thought would do them harm.
And I am beginning to be more and more o.k. with that concept.
Yes it is.
Jordan St. Francis
Well-Known Member
Berachiah,
Why are you so rude? It's not very appealing...
The Gospel of John indeed records that the beloved disciple stood by the cross of Christ.
Why are you so rude? It's not very appealing...
The Gospel of John indeed records that the beloved disciple stood by the cross of Christ.
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Berachiah Ben Yisrael
Active Member
I didn't come here to make freinds or to appeal anyone but I apologise if I have offended anyone. It truly wasn't my intent. I really didn't believe that many here would be so thin skinned. I again offer my sincere apologies. :sorry1:
Berachiah Ben Yisrael
Active Member
Who has denied this? I haven't. I have only answered that the bulk of the disciples fled and were again seen behind locked doors for fear of the Hebrews. I bet that beloved disciple didn't jump up and down and announce that he was a disciple of Yahshua in front of the people or the Roman guard. Kefa even denied him to save his own hide.