Revisiting that question about Karma...

[Vinayaka]

I didn't remember
​

It's a sign of old age. Welcome to the club.

 

[Sees]

Another aspect that may be in Hindu dharma as well is how karma is interconnected? In my traditions you are influenced by what all others do and especially by those closest. If you picture the huge web or woven cloth - you feel/affected by even the furthest, smallest change and your deeds, fate, destiny, path is interdependent with others though primarily self-creating.

I wonder if that is some place in different words within Hindu traditions?

 

[Vinayaka]

Another aspect that may be in Hindu dharma as well is how karma is interconnected? In my traditions you are influenced by what all others do and especially by those closest. If you picture the huge web or woven cloth - you feel/affected by even the furthest, smallest change and your deeds, fate, destiny, path is interdependent with others though primarily self-creating.

I wonder if that is some place in different words within Hindu traditions?

Indeed it is. We're all interconnected, and mostly unaware of it.

 

[NobodyYouKnow]

Namaste,

Yes, it's a popular question,
no doubt, but...

Why do bad things happen
to good people?

Can we revisit this question
once more? I'm having a
difficult time finding answers
or coming up with ones on
my own.
​

Namaste, Poeticus. :namaste

There is a book about all of that, and funnily enough, it also has that title (and it makes for a great read):

When Bad Things Happen to Good People - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I personally don't believe in Karma, because it seems to be just a convenient excuse for 'explaining' that which cannot be explained - "oh, we don't know why this happens, so we'll just make up this whole notion of Karma to explain it". It's no different to that Christian saying; "The Lord moves in mysterious ways" to 'explain' the same concept - it becomes nothing more than either a cop out or admitting that one simply does not know (and can never know) the answer to all these things.

After all of my own life experiences, I cannot accept why I must suffer in this life, due to something I did in a 'past life' and especially if I cannot remember it - what's the whole point in that? Why punish me for something that somebody else did? We may share the same Soul, but not the same mind, or intentions and quite frankly, I am having a difficult time believing in all of this reincarnation and Karma stuff to be honest, and yeah I have read everything about it and I still cannot accept it. I also had a difficult time believing that I was a Hindu because I did not, until I was told that there are many Hindus out there who don't believe in it either - so, I am one of them.

In the end, I found something that explained it all more than anything ever would or could, so I take the opportunity of sharing it now, and I welcome any Hindu to critique it:

Karma, causation, and divine intervention

Om Namah Shivaya

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram sees ji :namaste

Another aspect that may be in Hindu dharma as well is how karma is interconnected? In my traditions you are influenced by what all others do and especially by those closest. If you picture the huge web or woven cloth - you feel/affected by even the furthest, smallest change and your deeds, fate, destiny, path is interdependent with others though primarily self-creating.

jai jai , yes interconected in two ways , firstly in that we might have previous connections in some respect either literaly as in having some form of previous relationship , or otherwise that we have experiences which bring us to share the same fruits .

then there is the other aspect of interconectedness in that we all suffer the consequebces of our joint actions .....

one statement that stuck in my mind many years ago was regarding the increasing incidence of mass slaughter we suffer through war ....and the seeming unjustness of the inocent who invariably get caught up in the crossfire ....why , what explanation can be given for this ? ... the suggestion was that we should look at our own society and how we colectively cause needless suffering , .... the statment it self was short and to the point ....whilst we support needless and indescriminate suffering through slaughterhouses , we will suffer needless death and suffering through war.

it is an interesting one to think on .

sorry I gave an very negative scenario , ...obviously it works both ways .
where ever and when ever people come together to perform good actions the fruits of those good actions and intentions will have far reaching positive effects .

I wonder if that is some place in different words within Hindu traditions?

I will think on that for tomorrow .

 

[Poeticus]

Another aspect that may be in Hindu dharma as well is how karma is interconnected? In my traditions you are influenced by what all others do and especially by those closest. If you picture the huge web or woven cloth - you feel/affected by even the furthest, smallest change and your deeds, fate, destiny, path is interdependent with others though primarily self-creating.

I wonder if that is some place in different words within Hindu traditions?

Now this is a concept of karma
that I can identify with and come
to understand. It reminds me of
what Ratiben said a little earlier.​

 

[Poeticus]

Namaste, Poeticus. :namaste

There is a book about all of that, and funnily enough, it also has that title (and it makes for a great read):

When Bad Things Happen to Good People - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I personally don't believe in Karma, because it seems to be just a convenient excuse for 'explaining' that which cannot be explained - "oh, we don't know why this happens, so we'll just make up this whole notion of Karma to explain it". It's no different to that Christian saying; "The Lord moves in mysterious ways" to 'explain' the same concept - it becomes nothing more than either a cop out or admitting that one simply does not know (and can never know) the answer to all these things.

After all of my own life experiences, I cannot accept why I must suffer in this life, due to something I did in a 'past life' and especially if I cannot remember it - what's the whole point in that? Why punish me for something that somebody else did? We may share the same Soul, but not the same mind, or intentions and quite frankly, I am having a difficult time believing in all of this reincarnation and Karma stuff to be honest, and yeah I have read everything about it and I still cannot accept it. I also had a difficult time believing that I was a Hindu because I did not, until I was told that there are many Hindus out there who don't believe in it either - so, I am one of them.

In the end, I found something that explained it all more than anything ever would or could, so I take the opportunity of sharing it now, and I welcome any Hindu to critique it:

Karma, causation, and divine intervention

Om Namah Shivaya

Thank you for your post and
for your links, and I am most
obliged. And yes, there are
many Hindus that do not
accept the karmiac notion of
being affected by past lives. A
thing that I have difficulty in
understanding is if obstacles
faced are some sort of
punishment or a matter of the
incoming wave, so to speak.​

 

[Poeticus]

It's a sign of old age. Welcome to the club.

I can't join right now - I'm still
40 to 50 years behind. Aren't you
close to making a century? I
haven't even made it close to half
of a half-century.
______________
* props to anyone who gets the
Cricket reference ​

 

[Vinayaka]

I can't join right now - I'm still
40 to 50 years behind. Aren't you
close to making a century? I
haven't even made it close to half
of a half-century.
______________
* props to anyone who gets the
Cricket reference ​

I got a snooker reference. Best I ever did was 64 ... 8 straight blacks.

 

[Poeticus]

I got a snooker reference. Best I ever did was 64 ... 8 straight blacks.

I totally forgot you are a table fan!
I have never played Snooker, but
I sure do love a good game of nine-
ball and 8-ball. Perhaps after a dinner
at Woodlands after an intense day
at temple, I can teach you how to
play nine-ball and 8-ball. We can
also invite our friend ShivaFan - that
hustler*!!
________________
* That's probably how he acquired
such a huge fortune... ​

 

[Vinayaka]

I totally forgot you are a table fan!
I have never played Snooker, but
I sure do love a good game of nine-
ball and 8-ball. Perhaps after a dinner
at Woodlands after an intense day
at temple, I can teach you how to
play nine-ball and 8-ball. We can
also invite our friend ShivaFan - that
hustler*!!
________________
* That's probably how he acquired
such a huge fortune... ​

Snooker was invented in India. Americans found it too hard so invented the far simpler and easier games to be played on smaller tables with bigger pockets. Snooker takes real skill. Canadians, being more connected to England, had snooker. Every small town had a snooker hall. I grew up in one. The concentration needed is like the concentration needed for a good puja or meditation. But now, in this whole city of a million, I only know of 2 public snooker tables. It's sad.

 

[NobodyYouKnow]

Thank you for your post and
for your links, and I am most
obliged. And yes, there are
many Hindus that do not
accept the karmiac notion of
being affected by past lives. A
thing that I have difficulty in
understanding is if obstacles
faced are some sort of
punishment or a matter of the
incoming wave, so to speak.​

:namaste No problem.

If Karma is a continual, unending cycle, from whence did this 'incoming wave' originate?

What causes causation?

If you say 'God does', then God becomes responsible for Karma and can be held directly accountable for it - but I have been advised quite a number of times that this just isn't the case.

So, I am reluctant to believe that there is such a notion of Karma, and the notion of their being a God who allows all these bad things to happen - babies starving and dying, natural disasters etc is following closely behind Karma in my attempts to believe in it.

You once postulated that there cannot be any such thing as an 'Atheist Advaitin', but you are looking at one.

I figure that if I just follow Patanjali and Shankaracharya, do Hatha and Kriya Yoga, do meditation and dharana and dhyana on Om, or my own breath, it will take me to the same place as those who have 'realised God'.

Now I know all about 'Shivoham', being that any belief automatically turns a non-dual principle into a dual one.

I cannot explain why good people suffer, apart from using the old adage of 's*** happens'.

Om Namah Shivaya

 

[Aupmanyav]

What I am trying to ask is that karma can't really be controlled, correct? Since, it is predestined?

Putting on the theist hat ..

Who wrote destiny? Gods. They only have the power to change destiny. Was not Markandeya destined to die at a young age? He took refuge in Shiva and the destiny was changed. Not only Shiva, any other God or Goddess too can do that. If one God or Goddess does something, the others will not negate it. Sort of institutional etiquette. Vishnu, Ganesha, Murugan, Shakti, Saraswati, etc.

the suffering inflicted by these bad guys is at least only temporary, ..

Sure, temporary and illusionary, as all things in the world are. (temporary being the Buddhist usage, illusionary being the Hindu usage).

.. path is interdependent with others though primarily self-creating.

Sure, if one is killed by another person, there is a reason. For an easy example, perhaps the first person harmed the other in some serious way in a previous life. If you lost money to another person, perhaps you did not pay your debts to that person in a previous life. There is a huge karma net, which all life have to go through.

 

[NobodyYouKnow]

Putting on the theist hat ..

Who wrote destiny? Gods. They only have the power to change destiny. Was not Markandeya destined to die at a young age? He took refuge in Shiva and the destiny was changed. Not only Shiva, any other God or Goddess too can do that. If one God or Goddess does something, the others will not negate it. Sort of institutional etiquette. Vishnu, Ganesha, Murugan, Shakti, Saraswati, etc.

At the moment (and in the attempt to answer that for myself), I have put on my 'Buddhist Hat' and I'm delving into Liao Fan's 4 lessons of 'Changing Destiny':

Changing Destiny - Liao-Fan's Four Lessons by Chin Kung

Liao Fan was also like Markandeya. It was prophesied that he would die at a 'young age' (54), he would remain poor, he would fail the Imperial Test, he would not be able to make any friends and his wife would remain barren.

Thus, Liao Fan decided he would make his 'next life' better than his current one, and decided to dedicate the rest of his life to being kind, merciful and compassionate so that his next incarnation would be more prosperous than the current one.

He found that he was able to directly influence 'Karma' and what had been pre-determined and pre-ordained for him in this lifetime. He died at 86, he passed the Imperial Test' and became very wealthy, acquiring many friends in the process and his wife gave birth to two sons after many, many years of trying to conceive.

Thus, we make our own Karma and if there is any notion of Karma actually existing, it applies to only this lifetime. Of course if you 'do bad' you are going to 'get bad' and if you 'do good' you are going to 'get good', but that is the end of it.

Om Namah Shivaya

 

[Aupmanyav]

"The Lord moves in mysterious ways"

Still with the theist hat .. nothing mysterious about it, as transparent as glass. One reaps what one sows, in this life and over many lives. However, divine intervention is always possible. From the second link in your post: "God facilitates liberation by speeding up the karma eliminating process. But nothing is removed or facilitated which the devotee does not merit." and "Divine grace is likened to the sun which shines on all equally. Only those who are properly, karmically, and spiritually ready, like the mature plant, can receive and use it." Nice article, indeed.

 

[NobodyYouKnow]

Still with the theist hat .. nothing mysterious about it, as transparent as glass. One reaps what one sows, in this life and over many lives. However, divine intervention is always possible.

Well, either He just doesn't care, or it is totally impossible - which is it?

 

[NobodyYouKnow]

Still with the theist hat .. nothing mysterious about it, as transparent as glass. One reaps what one sows, in this life and over many lives. However, divine intervention is always possible. From the second link in your post: "God facilitates liberation by speeding up the karma eliminating process. But nothing is removed or facilitated which the devotee does not merit." and "Divine grace is likened to the sun which shines on all equally. Only those who are properly, karmically, and spiritually ready, like the mature plant, can receive and use it." Nice article, indeed.

Let's put it another way (after seeing your edit).

For years I have done Sadhana, Meditation, Worship of Siva and everything I could, and apart from a few 'mystical experiences' (which could be biochemical in nature), my overall existence hasn't benefited from doing so - in fact, it has become increasingly worse, as it seems the more I love Siva, the more He makes me suffer for loving Him - which can be surmised into two points:

1. Siva does not exist or
2. Karma does not exist.

Why should I spend my whole life in prayer and worship so that:

1. I can erase some kind of Karma that somebody else accrued and attached to this Soul (how does that work anyway)? and
2. For somebody else in the future (SWIM) to benefit from what I am doing this time around, when it obviously isn't getting me anywhere (and not that I expect it to, but it would be nice).

Answer those questions and I shall be satiated.

Also, please remove your 'theist hat' because your head is way too big for it and it does not suit you *jks

 

[Aupmanyav]

Takes off the theist hat but keeps quiet.

Resumes for your post 37: write on something, send it to Indian daily newspapers (English), and let us see how they respond. Perhaps you are not doing something that you could have done naturally. Just explore.

 

[NobodyYouKnow]

Takes off the theist hat but keeps quiet.

Resumes for your post 37: write on something, send it to Indian daily newspapers (English), and let us see how they respond. Perhaps you are not doing something that you could have done naturally.

Perhaps, but I am exploring other options in regards to your first answer before the edit and that is to remain silent just to 'conserve energy'.

Maybe the reason why I am suffering is because Siva totally enjoys seeing me whine about it, thus if I 'suffer in silence', He may get bored playing His little game with me and give up inflicting so much misery on me.

The only other forum I visit other than this one, is PsychForums and I am seeking answers to deal with my Asperger's Syndrome - which is a 'double-edged sword, because I can fully understand what is happening to me, but I am totally powerless to change it or prevent it from happening (which sounds a lot like Karma).

The only solution is to let it happen ('sif I have any 'free will' whatsoever) and have the attitude of 'are You quite done yet'? 'Tell me when You are finished screwing up my life, so I can go on and bloody live it in a comfortable and meaningful way'.

The only way one can facilitate this, is by being selectively mute - which is something I am currently trying to learn.

Om Namah Shivaya

 

[Jaskaran Singh]

Namaste,

Yes, it's a popular question,
no doubt, but...

Why do bad things happen
to good people?

Can we revisit this question
once more? I'm having a
difficult time finding answers
or coming up with ones on
my own.
​

praNAm,

*Disclaimer: I'm giving a response in the view of my vaiShNava sampradAya, so it's certainly not a universal perspective, although I have provided verses from the shAstra-s to support my claim.

To be honest, if it were any other way, it would be attributing partiality to the creator. This isn't correct as per the brahmasUtram in which vyAsa states:

"vaiShamyanairghR^iNye na sApekShatvAt tathA hi darshayati"([partiality and cruelty cannot be (attributed to brahma) taking into consideration (the work of souls), thus is described (in the scriptures)].​

He (parabrahma), as per the above, takes into consideration the works of souls and thereby creates injunctions and prohibitions, hence wherein injunctions of (naimmitika [casual], nitya [obligatory], and kAmya [optional]) karma-s arise. One famous example of a shAstrika injunction is the view that jyotiShToma should be performed to reach svargaloka from the ApastambashrautasUtra:

"svargakAmo jyotiShTomena yajeta ekakAmaH sarvakAmo vA yugapatkAmayetAhAraprR^ithaktve vA"​

If bhagavAn were to bestow the favorable karmaphalam-s solely on those who perform accordingly (the opposite with unfavorable karmaphalam-s), then he would be playing a part in being partial, as the decisions themselves are not independent from the lord [since all of saMsAra is but divine play/lIlA (lokavat tu lIlAkaivalyam)]. Therefore, to reward individuals solely because they have accumulated puNya/sAttvika sanchitakarmaphalam-s (taking into consideration that they were accumulated under the operation of the lord) would be deeply unfair. In other words, the urge to perform good itself derives from the grace of madhusUdana, to reward that jIva who is already blessed by constantly protecting him/her from any types of harm is a bit unfair. Therefore, to assume that only good things occur to good people and only bad things occur to bad people is laughable from a vedAntic perspective. If one has paraduHkhaduHkhi and an innate urge to help and love others, then that in itself is a blessing from bhagavAn in the view of a vaiShNava. A vaiShNava does not love others because he/she will be rewarded or because they will be punished if they do not, but rather because it brings them closer to bhagavAn, as prema is a divyabhAva. Devotional love for the lord implies loving service for other humans (and actually all beings), certainly not apathy or indifference for others; this is akin to how surrendering oneself to bhagavAn implies having a sAttvikacharitram. One example of this is illustrated in the bR^ihadAraNyakopaniShad, wherein yAj~navalkya tells maitreyI that it is not for the pati (husband) that the husband is dear to the wife, but it is for the AtmA:

"ná vÁre pátyuH kÁmAya pátiH priyóbhavatyAtmánas tú kÁmAya pátiH priyóbhavati"​

According to my guru, the AtmA therein refers not only to the self (jivAtmA/sarvApekShAtmA) but moreso to the antaryAmI, the anAshrityaparamAtmA. From this, we can conclude that helping and loving others is necessary in pleasing bhagavAn (as well as to oneself, to an extent). It does not, however, imply that one will not suffer; nonetheless, love for others should be performed by a devotee, or even mumukShI, regardless of one's results.

Q.E.D.