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Riddle of the beginning solved without god?

dyanaprajna2011

Dharmapala
In David Mills' book, Atheist Universe, he states on pgs. 73-74:

During the last twenty years, astrophysicists and cosmologists—
led by Cambridge University's Dr. Stephen Hawking—have
expanded even further our understanding of mass-energy and
have explained how mass-energy's seemingly bizarre properties
actually solve the riddle of cosmic origins. Hawking and others
have described a naturally occurring phenomenon known as "vacuum
fluctuation," in which matter is created out of what appears
to be perfectly empty space—i.e., out of a perfect vacuum.
Scientists have discovered that even in a perfect vacuum, in which
all traditionally understood forms of matter and energy are absent,
random electromagnetic oscillations are present. These oscillations
actually represent a form of energy now called vacuum fluctuation
energy, which can be converted into matter in complete
harmony with the mass-energy conservation laws.

So, has the riddle of how the universe began been solved, all without resorting to a divine being? Is this idea logical and does it resonate with known scientific findings?
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
In David Mills' book, Atheist Universe, he states on pgs. 73-74:



So, has the riddle of how the universe began been solved, all without resorting to a divine being? Is this idea logical and does it resonate with known scientific findings?

Too difficult. God did it (see, that's more simple).
 

Madhuri

RF Goddess
Staff member
Premium Member
I wish I understood this and its implications...how is it any different to an argument about the big bang theory, for instance?

Need help understanding...
 

dyanaprajna2011

Dharmapala
Madhuri, there's a few people here who could explain it a lot better than I could. I'll see about getting them in here and explaining it. :)
 

gnostic

The Lost One
I prefer this beginning scenario without the a god or gods:

Once a upon time, there was nothing in the beginning, no fun...until Tigger :tigger: came into existence...and he said, "Bouncing is what Tiggers do best." ...then, there was a great deal of parties with all his friends invited...and all was fun and all was well....

Blessed are the Pooh. Amen. :yes:
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
..., has the riddle of how the universe began been solved, all without resorting to a divine being?
In quantum physics, a quantum fluctuation is the temporary change in the amount of energy in a point in space, arising from Werner Heisenberg's uncertainty principle. ... That means that conservation of energy can appear to be violated, but only for small times. This allows the creation of particle-antiparticle pairs of virtual particles. The effects of these particles are measurable, for example, in the effective charge of the electron, different from its "naked" charge.

In the modern view, energy is always conserved, but the eigenstates of the Hamiltonian (energy observable) are not the same as (i.e. the Hamiltonian doesn't commute with) the particle number operators.

Quantum fluctuations may have been very important in the origin of the structure of the universe: according to the model of inflation the ones that existed when inflation began were amplified and formed the seed of all current observed structure. [wiki]
In other words, no.
 

shawn001

Well-Known Member
I wish I understood this and its implications...how is it any different to an argument about the big bang theory, for instance?

Need help understanding...


It can be part of the big bang theory.

The big bang is just that the universe was much hotter and denser in the past and has expanded to what we see today. Its not as much about how the universe started.

Hawkings and some others can explain it without breaking any physical laws of nature.

There are also other theories on how it started. But the point is he can explain it using quantum flutuations. In empty space in a vacuum, particles pop in and out of existence all the time.
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
I'm just going to put this out there. I personally have no problem with the idea of God creating everything. I just don't see a problem with such an idea. I personally believe God was the catalyst that began the creation of the universe. I also accept the big bang theory.

I just don't see why there is a need to show that God didn't do it.
 

dyanaprajna2011

Dharmapala
I'm just going to put this out there. I personally have no problem with the idea of God creating everything. I just don't see a problem with such an idea. I personally believe God was the catalyst that began the creation of the universe. I also accept the big bang theory.

I just don't see why there is a need to show that God didn't do it.

That answer should be obvious. Just as atheists ask Christians and other theists for proof of god's existence, they, in turn ask us to prove that there is no god, as illogical as that is. And they ask, even if the Big Bang happened, what was there before it? They use Aristotle's first cause argument as evidence for god's existence. With that being said, to give evidence that the Big Bang happened, and the whole universe happened, without the help of a divine being, is something that scientists have been working on, and atheists have been searching for, as an answer to the theists who believe that god created the universe.
 

freethinker44

Well-Known Member
So, has the riddle of how the universe began been solved, all without resorting to a divine being? Is this idea logical and does it resonate with known scientific findings?

Even with a divine being it still would not be solved. It just creates the riddle of what is god's begining.
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
So, has the riddle of how the universe began been solved, all without resorting to a divine being? Is this idea logical and does it resonate with known scientific findings?

One issue with this is that it's just one more turtle on the way down. It does explain why we have a universe filled with matter; but it's not a creation of everything from "nothing" in the true sense of nothingness.

Even when Hawking says, "Because there must be such a law, the universe created itself from nothing." If we take "nothing" to literally mean the absence of everything, the contradiction should be readily apparent: whence, then, came laws like gravity?

So, regardless of knowing now why matter exists, we don't know why "something at all" exists rather than "the absence of anything." This finding does not absolutely vindicate atheism; rather it just makes the necessity of a God-like being that much less likely and that much less rational to believe.

However, it would be unfair to say that god(s) have no place anymore with this understanding -- if, even as an atheist, I must be perfectly honest. The "nothing" from which matter comes from that Hawking mentions is a lot more of a "something" than his poor choice of words indicates: there is still the existence of energy (via quantum fields -- energy, as a property, is always carried by something rather than existing unto itself) and there is still the existence of logical and natural laws to account for.

Now, to step away from objectivity and into the realm of speculation, I suspect that the reason "somethingness" exists rather than "an absence of everything" is because some aspect of "somethingness" is ontologically necessary: it's not possible not to exist, so the notion that it requires an explanation for existing may be false (again, this is my speculation).

Back to objectivity, it can already be demonstrated that there are some necessary laws which aren't possible not to be true: logical self-identity is my favorite example. If we suppose the existence of anything and then try to negate that, we find that we can't -- so by reductio ad absurdum, we must agree that at least something must exist.

If we substitute "the existence of anything" with the symbol x, and then we propose ¬x, we still find that we must agree with the foundations of logic and its corollaries:

(¬x = ¬x) --> T (true)
(¬x V x) --> T
¬(¬x ^ x) --> T

Even assuming the absence of anything demonstrates the efficacy of identity, negating the original premise that there isn't anything (since we must agree there is still identity!)

This doesn't get us very far though. That doesn't explain why things like energy and natural laws exist. But in my opinion, it's a large step forward in explaining "why something rather than nothing:" because "nothing" in its truest sense is an impossibility. No gods are required for that, but it doesn't discount their possibility either -- however small.
 

shawn001

Well-Known Member
Most, but not all cosmologists nowadays, really believe there is more then one universe.

This is a little more on a universe from 'Nothing.'

ASP: A Universe from Nothing

Its in part that there are equal amounts of positive and negative energy in the universe and when you do the math they cancel each other out to exactly 0.
 

Looncall

Well-Known Member
I'm just going to put this out there. I personally have no problem with the idea of God creating everything. I just don't see a problem with such an idea. I personally believe God was the catalyst that began the creation of the universe. I also accept the big bang theory.

I just don't see why there is a need to show that God didn't do it.

What there is, is a need to find out how it actually happened, God or not.
 

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
One issue with this is that it's just one more turtle on the way down. It does explain why we have a universe filled with matter; but it's not a creation of everything from "nothing" in the true sense of nothingness.

Even when Hawking says, "Because there must be such a law, the universe created itself from nothing." If we take "nothing" to literally mean the absence of everything, the contradiction should be readily apparent: whence, then, came laws like gravity?

So, regardless of knowing now why matter exists, we don't know why "something at all" exists rather than "the absence of anything." This finding does not absolutely vindicate atheism; rather it just makes the necessity of a God-like being that much less likely and that much less rational to believe...
You've expressed the problem with Hawking's conclusion well, I believe. It is essentially a recapitulation of Laplace's reply with Napoleon's complaint that his book failed to mention God: Je n'avais pas besoin de cette hypothèse-là. ("I had no need of that hypothesis.") Occam's Razor rules out God, but Occam's Razor only optimizes an argument. It does not logically prove or disprove the conclusion.
 
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