Right hand path Luciferians?

[crossfire]

There's been a clear definition of Left and Right Hand Path for at least the greater part of a millennium...

EDIT: actually there are LHP traditions going back to around 600 C.E. and earlier, so actually it's more like 1,400+ years. I was just commenting on that that I know for 100% refered to itself as LHP (8th to 12th century CE). The term existed since at least the earliest recorded dates of the Shaiva Kapalikas and then a little later in Tibet the heterodox sects of Tibetan Buddhism.

It's probably older even then, that's just the oldest I'm aware of.

The OP was about RHP Luciferianism, so what Luciferians believe regarding RHP and LHP within Luciferianism is what I have been discussing.

 

[Kapalika]

I hope my tone doesn't come off wrong, I've actually enjoyed your response.

Antinomianism: Identifying, bringing into consciousness, and critiquing the cultural nomos that lie just below consciousness of any given culture.

Here is the wiki link on "nomos."
Nomos (sociology) - Wikipedia

snippet:
To be most effective, the nomos must be taken for granted. The structure of the world created by human and social activity is treated not as contingent, but as self-evident. 'Whenever the socially established nomos attains the quality of being taken for granted, there occurs a merging of its meanings with what are considered to be the fundamental meanings inherent in the universe.' (1967:24-25). Berger sees this happening in all societies, and while the nomos is expressed in religious terms in 'archaic societies', 'In contemporary society, this archaic cosmization of the social world is likely to take the form of "scientific" propositions about the nature of men rather than the nature of the universe.' (1967:25).​

Okay, nomos is a lot more precise, and I did just now notice that Antinomianism has the Greek word for "nomos" in it however the problem with using that word IMO is that it's a term used almost exclusively by to refer to a Christian theological position.

I'm not sure how the term came to see wider use, if this is just a matter of ethnocentric definitions or what, but it's still got that strong connotation. I was trying to point that out with my comment was all. Also I was drunk right after dinner when I posted that so that line seemed more witty at the time than it really was xD

I didn't say heterodoxy is useless, because it does have its uses.

Looking back that wasn't totally clear.

I said that the practice of heterodoxy can tend to dull your intellect and discernment, so care must be taken when using it.

I never said it was fruitless. I said that it tends towards dulling the intellect and discernment. That is not fruitless.

I actually looked back through the topic and you didn't say "tends" at any point just:

whereas heterodoxy dulls ego/intellect by having id directly attacking superego

So I don't know if I can totally be blamed for the confusion.

If you had said so elsewhere on the forums I apologize for not recalling it.

Oh believe me, I've been observing. My opinions are based on my observations. Your mileage may vary.

Naturally.

The OP was about RHP Luciferianism, so what Luciferians believe regarding RHP and LHP within Luciferianism is what I have been discussing.

Edit: My bad I misread this. It was actually a response to someone else not you lol I thought you said "what we are discussing" as if it was saying my post was irrelevant.

The original poster made a generalized question about the definitions of the LHP and RHP in regards to their religion later in the topic to which I responded with a more generalized answer. Then another poster made a general point about definitions to which my reply was aimed.

If others want to disagree with their definition(s) that's a totally different issue, but there was still a definition before the much more modern ones.In my opinion they can work with Luciferianism and any other western occult LHP -ism because they are not about belief but practice. And it's at least true for me.

If there doesn't seem to be a clear definition now days it's because new definitions were introduced and now there is disagreement. It seemed like to me even, from when I first started the LHP 6 or 7 years ago that new definitions were widely introduced (or at least caught on) in those 7 years.

 

[EtuMalku]

There's been a clear definition of Left and Right Hand Path for at least the greater part of a millennium...

EDIT: actually there are LHP traditions going back to around 600 C.E. and earlier, so actually it's more like 1,400+ years. I was just commenting on that that I know for 100% refered to itself as LHP (8th to 12th century CE). The term existed since at least the earliest recorded dates of the Shaiva Kapalikas and then a little later in Tibet the heterodox sects of Tibetan Buddhism.

It's probably older even then, that's just the oldest I'm aware of.

Sure, these terms have been in use by Vedics for a long time, however neither dakshinachara nor vamachara would be aligned with what is understood as the Western Left Hand Path.

 

[Mrpasserby]

Hmm....On my path I worship Jesus as a light bearer/bringer of knowledge or gnosis, and yet in my rituals declare myself as the Jesus/Christ/only Son of God (in this mode) that I worship. The line is *still* blurred. Is there anything like a Middle Path?

(bold added to emphasize the point)

In my experience the story of 'Balaam Is Hired', is a example of a middle path: , bible Numbers 22:20&31
If you read the story of Balaam notice the familiarity in which the god of israel talks to Balaam (it is almost pear to pear), and the way the *angle has to rough up Balaam in order to get Balaam to do what the god of israel is forcing him to do.

 

[Kapalika]

Sure, these terms have been in use by Vedics for a long time, however neither dakshinachara nor vamachara would be aligned with what is understood as the Western Left Hand Path.

None of those groups were Vedic, and their lineages can be traced as developing independently of the southern Vedic traditions.

I won't get into why they can work with the "western" Left Hand Path but suffice to say... it can. So many people disagree on what the "western" left hand path is and it might not work with all but it works with some. That's why I say it doesn't matter or there isn't a west or east LHP. It just is what it is, and the difference between yours and mine isn't any more dthan the difference between yours and any other "western" interpretation.

If you disagree okay, but that's where I stand on it.

 

[EtuMalku]

None of those groups were Vedic, and their lineages can be traced as developing independently of the southern Vedic traditions.

I stand corrected, my fault I lazily use the term Vedic to describe various Hindu traditions.

I won't get into why they can work with the "western" Left Hand Path but suffice to say... it can. So many people disagree on what the "western" left hand path is and it might not work with all but it works with some. That's why I say it doesn't matter or there isn't a west or east LHP. It just is what it is, and the difference between yours and mine isn't any more dthan the difference between yours and any other "western" interpretation.

If you disagree okay, but that's where I stand on it.

I think by now we all know where you stand with this.

 

[EverChanging]

None of those groups were Vedic, and their lineages can be traced as developing independently of the southern Vedic traditions.

I won't get into why they can work with the "western" Left Hand Path but suffice to say... it can. So many people disagree on what the "western" left hand path is and it might not work with all but it works with some. That's why I say it doesn't matter or there isn't a west or east LHP. It just is what it is, and the difference between yours and mine isn't any more dthan the difference between yours and any other "western" interpretation.

If you disagree okay, but that's where I stand on it.

Being unfamiliar with these Eastern traditions, can you give any pointers as to sources of information I can readily find to get an idea of how the left hand path is understood in those contexts?

I am pretty frustrated with Western definitions which I have thus far not found helpful.

 

[Deidre]

Are right and left hand paths really just societal social constructs, though? I'm still learning but from what I've been reading, it's all in the perception."RHP" has historically been looked at as holy and pure while LHP has been seen as the opposite but it isn't so. So I wonder why the difference or distinction, in Luciferianism?

 

[crossfire]

Are right and left hand paths really just societal social constructs, though? I'm still learning but from what I've been reading, it's all in the perception."RHP" has historically been looked at as holy and pure while LHP has been seen as the opposite but it isn't so. So I wonder why the difference or distinction, in Luciferianism?

This post might help for western LHP in general:

Here are some keywords associated with the LHP:

• Individualism: Thinking for yourself instead of following the herd
• Antinomianism: Bringing the cultural nomos into consciousness and critically examining them for merit or lack of merit.
• Heterodoxy: Breaking of taboos to free yourself of attachments to the taboo in question that you have deemed to be unprofitable in keeping
• Introversion: Taking the antinomian concept inward, and bringing unconscious mental processes into consciousness and critically examining them, and fixing any errors.
• Self-power over other-power
• Discerning between the objective universe and the subjective mind, and knowing each for what it is,
• Being able to skillfully withdraw subjective influence from the perception of the objective universe,
• Being able to skillfully bring your subjective will into the objective universe to get desired results.
• Development of the mind
• Self evolution

Regarding Luciferianism specifically:

The tradition that Lucifer bows to no one highlights the Self-power over other power bullet point above.

If you are a theistic Luciferian, then bowing down to a deity that would not bow to anyone really doesn't make any sense, so the LHP Luciferians call worshipers RHP, (also keeping in mind the points of thinking for yourself instead of following the herd and development of the mind.)

 

[Deidre]

This post might help for western LHP in general:


Regarding Luciferianism specifically:

The tradition that Lucifer bows to no one highlights the Self-power over other power bullet point above.

If you are a theistic Luciferian, then bowing down to a deity that would not bow to anyone really doesn't make any sense, so the LHP Luciferians call worshipers RHP, (also keeping in mind the points of thinking for yourself instead of following the herd and development of the mind.)

Thank you for this! It's been helpful. I'm leaning towards an atheist approach, with philosophical teachings and benefits. I'm not sure yet how to view the whole Satan component of this, even though I understand how Satan has been misunderstood as ''evil'' in Abrahamic faiths. Time will tell.

 

[Kapalika]

Being unfamiliar with these Eastern traditions, can you give any pointers as to sources of information I can readily find to get an idea of how the left hand path is understood in those contexts?

I am pretty frustrated with Western definitions which I have thus far not found helpful.

Hm. Well interestingly off the top of my head I only really know about books on specific LHP traditions in Hinduism and Buddhism ect. If you just want a general overview of eastern LHP I'm actually not sure there is as many books on that. Plus most material I'd be familiar with would be about stuff close to my beliefs.

A good starting place though would be to search up sources on Vāmācāra (Vamachara if you don't know how to get the long a's typed out) and books on Tantra probably would cover it too (although not necessarily). Look for stuff that seems to be scholarly and unbiased, a lot of Indian universities will probably have some historians discussing of what is known of the traditions. I tend to trust these more as they are not tinted to much with the lense of modern theology.

Actually @Liu might know some good general sources as he's generally more well read than me. If you don't mind something obviously biased towards my beliefs this could be a start: https://www.amazon.com/Triadic-Heart-Siva-Tantricism-Abhinavagupta/dp/0887067875

Kaula is IMO closest to what others might consider "western" LHP, but basically it's close enough that you should pick up on what it's saying easier and might be a good gateway into the other stuff. At the very least the distinction of LHP and RHP is much more clear, even though Kaula LHP are living more or less in society (just not a part of it or rather not ruled by it like the RHP).

 

[crossfire]

Being unfamiliar with these Eastern traditions, can you give any pointers as to sources of information I can readily find to get an idea of how the left hand path is understood in those contexts?

I am pretty frustrated with Western definitions which I have thus far not found helpful.

In Taoism, the left is associated with YIN: wisdom, feminine, passive/hidden, dark, and the right is associated with YANG: force, masculine, active, bright. Taoism favors the yin path, and considers resorting to force (yang) as a last resort and failure.

In Buddhism, left is associated with feminine, passive, and Wisdom, whereas the right is associated with masculine, active, and compassion/skillfulness.

In Buddhism, the Middle Path refers to rejecting the extremes of unprofitable self-indulgence (Id functions) and unprofitable self-affliction (Superego functions) which lead to "producing vision, producing knowledge — leads to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding" (Ego functions.)
-source-

 

[Liu]

Hm. Well interestingly off the top of my head I only really know about books on specific LHP traditions in Hinduism and Buddhism ect. If you just want a general overview of eastern LHP I'm actually not sure there is as many books on that. Plus most material I'd be familiar with would be about stuff close to my beliefs.

A good starting place though would be to search up sources on Vāmācāra (Vamachara if you don't know how to get the long a's typed out) and books on Tantra probably would cover it too (although not necessarily). Look for stuff that seems to be scholarly and unbiased, a lot of Indian universities will probably have some historians discussing of what is known of the traditions. I tend to trust these more as they are not tinted to much with the lense of modern theology.

Actually @Liu might know some good general sources as he's generally more well read than me. If you don't mind something obviously biased towards my beliefs this could be a start: https://www.amazon.com/Triadic-Heart-Siva-Tantricism-Abhinavagupta/dp/0887067875

On the Indian LHP specifically, besides the 4 books your recommended me (of which I've read 2 so far, thanks again!), I only know the 2 books I mentioned to you at that time:
"Demons of the Flesh" by the Schrecks (I've read it a couple years ago, not sure whether it's recommendable, from what I recall it's mostly on sex magick and the authors' own views, and even at that point I noticed a few mistakes in it, like them claiming the kali yuga would refer to Kālī).
"Kālī Kaula" by Jan Fries (which I'm actually reading atm - it begins with a huge general section on the history of Hinduism with focus on tantra, and so far it seems pretty sound; the main part is supposed to focus on practical application, which sounds good, but I'm not there yet, the book is over 550 pages long - also, he says at the beginning that it's 'only' on "Kula, Kaula, Krama and a bit of Trika" and nothing too RHP nor Buddhist since else it would be too much for one book).
I might be more well-read on other topics, but on this I also haven't found much yet.