Risks with meditation?

[MysticSang'ha]

Hello, all. I thought about putting this thread in the Buddhism sub-forum, but I think this might be more appropriate since Buddhists aren't the only folks who meditate.




Mods, feel free to move this thread if appropriate (although I didn't think you'd need my permission).





I'm reading an intriguing book called, "Hidden Dangers of Meditation and Yoga," by Del Pe. In it, the writer claims that playing with the sacred fires of the kundalini just might burn you - and/or others - if activated improperly. Such claims of "burning" include exacerbating certain ailments such as cancer, HIV/AIDS, etc. and also creating flightiness or becoming spacey. He also claims that meditating close to children (within a 15 foot radius) can inadvertently light their kundalini energy, and can create hyperactivity since their minds and bodies are not mature enough to handle such energy surges.





My overall impression of the book is that I am a little reluctant to agree completely with what Del Pe has written, although I think he brings up points of consideration. With much more talk about activating the chakras, of insight meditation practices, and of the rising popularity of hatha yoga in the West, are we overlooking the potential that raising the kundalini can bring? Are we merely sugar-coating kundalini experience, and not discussing any remote possibility that this kind of power can do damage in our lives with the same intensity that it can bring joy and security?





I'd like to hear others' views and interpolations on how meditating can actually be "bad" or destructive in a person's life. If anyone has read the book and would like to comment on it, that would be fine, too. However, my main purpose for bringing this up to the RF community is to read personal opinions on the possibility of risks of meditation.





Thank you, all.





Peace,
Mystic

 

[Krie]

i've always thought that meditation was a great way to relax and see the world from a different angle, like a spiritual drug. I've never thought that it was in any way a bad thing to practice.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

It does make since that meditating can cause you to stumble across things that will negativly effect you, but you'd have to want to find them.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Allow me to interrupt by saying that the writer's claims are without scholarly research, and entirely seems to be of his opinion. They are factually baseless. Again, I am reluctant to believe him and his claims.

i've always thought that meditation was a great way to relax and see the world from a different angle, like a spiritual drug. I've never thought that it was in any way a bad thing to practice.

Krie, I'd love for you to embellish on this thought. Has this been your personal experience with meditation? Has it been based on what others have told you?

It does make since that meditating can cause you to stumble across things that will negativly effect you, but you'd have to want to find them.

SW, perhaps you could embellish, too? Do you mean that one must have motivation to find negative experiences in order to materialize them?





Peace,
Mystic

 

[c0da]

Sounds like an interesting read.

I know for sure that I never bad after my meditation and as far as I know, I've never came across these bad energies.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

SW, perhaps you could embellish, too? Do you mean that one must have motivation to find negative experiences in order to materialize them?

Yes, whether it be a goal you want to achieve, or just an adventurous side wanting to find something to "spice up" things.

 

[DakotaGypsy]

I am inclined to believe that when one meditates properly on the nature of Avalokistevara or on the nature of White Tara, one's surroundings are calmed and everyone in the vicinity benefits.

 

[PureX]

I was an active alcoholic for many years. When I finally hit bottom and went to AA for help, one of the practices my sponsor recommended in my early recovery days was meditation.

It's hard to explain just how bizarre and dysfunctional the mind is when it has been anesthetized by drugs and/or alcohol for so long, and is then left to face the unsoftened shock of sobriety. But I can say that in my case, anyway, the effect was sort of like having a psychic thunderstorm going on in my head every waking moment, with flashes of the horrific realization of what I had done to myself, my life, and my loved ones through all those years of drinking.

It was not a fun experience.

I know my sponsor meant well when he suggested I deal with my hyperactive and frantic mind by meditating a little bit each day, but when I tried it I had the exact opposite effect as the one he was intending. He was intending that by practicing clearing my mind, contemplating on pleasant thoughts and images, I might gain some peace and quiet from that continual "thunderstorm" going on in my head. And this was a logical assumption.

But in reality I had the opposite reaction. As I practiced trying to quiet my mind, the thunderstorm found less and less there to distract or impede it's ruckus. The more calm I made my body and surroundings, the louder the thunderstorm could scream in my head. It got to the point where an attempt as meditation would result in a full blown anxiety attack. *smile*

The actual solution was the opposite of what my sponsor had considered, and that was pacing, and rocking, and other similar repetitive motions. It turned out that the constant motion created a constant distraction to the "thunderstorm", and lessened it's effect. Those first few months sober I must have paced a hundred miles back and forth across my tiny apartment floor. But the pacing did help. So did sitting on the floor and rocking back and forth, and repeating hopeful phrases. Eventually all that "exercise" would exhaust my body and quiet my mind enough for me to fall asleep.

So I can relate to the idea that meditation is not always the answer, or even always a good thing to do. Even now I tend to prefer contemplation to meditation (though the way I do it they become pretty similar, anyway).

I am in love with gravity. *smile*

 

[michel]

When cleansing Chakras (in meditation), I was taught to concentrate on the base chakra, and imagine a ball of energy that would 'oil and free' the other Chakras on the way up the body. That ball increases in size as one goes up, ending with the energy being released through the Crown Chakra, as a fountain, to return the energy to earth.

We were taught not to forget to return the energy to Earth; every 'stream' of energy must return to Earth. Does that make sense?


I have heard of unpleasant reactions to sudden Kundalini release, but nothing as bad as you quote.

 

[Ori]

I have a book on meditation that says not to try and do it if you are on medication, which I have been for the last year or so.

Hopefully I will get better soon and be able to do it.

 

[Scarlett Wampus]

PureX that was an excellent example of when meditation can be problematic.

Here is an example I can think of: A friend who was deeply emotionally scared and also suffering from post traumatic stress disorder was recommended meditation by a doctor because she couldn't concentrate. When she tried it she tended to slip into psychotic episodes or went into hysterical fits losing control of her body and speech. What she found worked for her instead was Tai Chi and a great deal of other mainly physical activities like dancing, aerobics, massage and walking. As her body became stronger and healthier she found she could relax and concentrate a little better. Very slowly she then started to work through her emotional problems, eventually utilising meditation to help with that.

This thing about Kundalini...if you practice a form of meditation like awareness of breath things should develop calmly and healthily. Unless there are unusual circumstances (like mentioned above) its very safe. Most forms of meditation are safe. Kundalini Yoga on the other hand, pretty notorious for messing people up if not taken very slowly. On the Taoist side of things Chi Kung practices that involve high levels of energy from sublimation of sexual energy and/or are used to work on just a few aspects of chi without more general cultivation can also be quite dangerous. That is different to Tai Chi. Tai Chi Chu'an has to be one of the safest and most beneficial practices possible.

Orichalcum I think it depends on what type of medication and what kind of meditation.

 

[Scarlett Wampus]

Likewise, I have read more than a bit regarding the various chakras, but unfortunately, I don't buy into that conceptology either. I am not saying they are not correct, but rather, I have never seen any evidence of them.

I have a theory about these subtle energy systems. I don't believe they exist in some absolute form, haven't done for many years in fact, but since they work nevertheless I've come up with this:-

After studying Chi Kung for a long time Chi appears real and has a definite influence on the body/mind. A minor example, I can quickly fill my hand up with blood until it feels swollen just by concentrating 'Chi' into it. What I think is happening here is that the associations I've built up in my mind through repetition of certain exercises eventually impart somewhat conscious control over otherwise unconscious automated functions of the body. The catch is I can only do it through the Chi Kung I've learnt The system of exercises, the meridians, the tripple heaters, etc. all serve as a kind of dialogue between the conscious and the unconscious. Once the language is well established it works. This extends beyond the physical too. Another example, after using specific colour meditations from the Highest Pure School Taoist sect for many months I have found I can quickly alter my mood through them, and this has a marked effect on people around me when I do it (probably because of body-language, tone of voice, pheromones, etc.)

Sorry for being so off-topic, I just always wanna talk about this stuff.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

All of these comments are wonderful. Thank you, everyone, for sharing your insight into any potential downside to meditation.




As was brought up in another thread earlier this week, meditation itself is practiced in different forms and with different motivations. I have had the impression that Westerners tend to narrow the definition of meditation to sitting in a lotus posture, hands in a mudra position, and with or without chanting OM for a good 15 minutes. I see it rather differently. There is vipassana, kundalini and/or chakra activation, chanting, yantra (focusing mentally on symbols), walking meditation, zazen, single-pointed concentration, and devotional meditations, to name but a few. All are different, and all have different impacts on our minds.




I would like to ask a follow-up question, if anyone would like to contribute. In light of PureX's response (for which I am grateful):




Are the practices that helped PureX relax from the "thunderstorm" possibly be considered a form of meditation?




My initial response is, "yes." Meditation is a practice - a form of exercise - for the mind. For people who are committed to physically working out to exercise their bodies to health, meditation exercises the mind to health. And yet, one can see that physical exercise need not come in only one form.




Many people run to keep in shape. Many people run for years with wonderful benefits on their physical health. I don't run because it hurts my ankles. I instead prefer to do circuit-training to maintain good cardiovascular health and good muscle strength. I do hatha yoga every day to maintain good flexibility in my joints, suppleness in the muscles, and toned organs. It would be silly to prescribe my particular brand of physical exercise to everyone. It is also silly, then, to prescribe one form of meditation to train the mind.





I'd like to read answers to this follow-up question, as well as to the initial question.





Peace,
Mystic

 

[Engyo]

Hmmmmm -

I hadn't before encountered a case like PureX's; very interesting.

Ymirgif -

One thing I have noted is that different meditation styles work well in different situations and with different people. Some rather hyperactive folks I know had an unbearable time with silent sitting meditaiton, but were able to interact well with mantra recitation. That meditation form had enough activity going on, something for the brain energy to latch onto, that the experience was successful rather than not.

Our sangha also practices writing meditation on occasion. Some folks just love this practice and react very well to it. Others detest it, and never return to it after the first experience. Sitting meditation seems much more universal, but it won't be a complete panacea for everyone. IMHO, that's why it's a good thing that there are a number of different meditative practices available.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Writing meditation? I've never tried it, Engyo. Can you give the basics to the method? I'd like to learn.





Peace,
Mystic

 

[PureX]

Other practices that might be in the same general area as meditation that I used at different periods throughout my addiction recovery were "visualization" and "automatic writing". And I had a friend who used an unusual "conversational" method at one point in his recovery.

Visualization, for me, involved dealing with intense fear and anxiety that would overcome my mind, especially in those moments where my body was lying still and I was trying to fall asleep, at night. To be still, in those early days, was to invite the "thunderstorm" I wrote of in the previous post. And it made it very difficult to fall asleep even though I was exhausted.

So I began to practice at imagining that my body was inside a pill-shaped "force field" like in a science fiction movie. I would imagine that inside that field was absolute safety, as nothing could penetrate the field against my will, and that all my fears and worries were for the world outside of that protective pill-shaped field. Somehow this worked as it gave me a way of temporarily "setting aside" all that fear and anxiety so that I could relax and fall asleep.

Automatic writing is pretty much what it implies. I would set a timer for one minute, and make myself write continually for that minute, no matter what. The first couple of times I would "choke" and end up writing repetitive phrases or something. But usually after a couple of tries it would begin to work.

The object of the exercise was to get unconscious thoughts and feelings out of my head and onto a piece of paper. Often that act alone would release me of that thought or feeling for good, and I could just toss the paper away unread. Other times, if the thought or feeling was persistent, seeing it in the "black and white" objectivity of the written word, I could recognize the foolishness and futility of holding on to it, and laugh at it and then let it go.

I often thought about cats spitting up hair balls when I was practicing "automatic writing". That seemed to be what it was like. Once the hair ball came out, there was no need to keep it, or analyze it, or think about it anymore. It's out, and it's done with. That's it.

This method wouldn't have worked for me very early in recovery, though, I don't think.

I have a friend who used to converse with himself all day long when he was at a similar place in his recovery. The human mind is a physical structure, and through years of practicing "addictive thinking", the addict will have created and entrenched sets of neuropathways that correspond to these addictive thoughts. When he/she gets sober, these neuropathways are still a part of the structure of their brain, and so the addictive thoughts keep recurring, over and over, even against their will.

My friend "Jay" dealt with this constant repetition of addictive thinking by imagining himself as two different people in one body. One "Jay" was the addict/alcoholic, and the other "Jay" was the recovering addict/alcoholic. Each time his brain would produce an addictive thought, he would recognize it as the addict-Jay "speaking", and the recovering Jay would respond with some humorous dismissal of the addictive thought: "Thanks for sharing that, Jay, now shut up!".

I still smile at the thought of my friend Jay walking around New York City all day and muttering to himself, "Thank you for sharing that, Jay, now shut up!"

I'm not sure how any of these practices relate to meditation, but they aren't uncommon in addiction recovery circles. People who are trying to recover from a serious addiction are desperate and suffering, and will try anything BUT another chemical substance to try and get through the very difficult period of early sobriety. The 12 steps were designed by addicts, to help other addicts get and stay sober, and they work. But they do take time, and persistent effort, and AA, NA, and other 12 step programs are not exclusive. They encourage people to use whatever works. Meditation is a very common practice among recovering addicts and has helped millions of folks recover from a very deadly illness. And I'm sure it could help people dealing with all sorts of mental, emotional, and spiritual illnesses.

 

[dawny0826]

I'd like to hear others' views and interpolations on how meditating can actually be "bad" or destructive in a person's life. If anyone has read the book and would like to comment on it, that would be fine, too. However, my main purpose for bringing this up to the RF community is to read personal opinions on the possibility of risks of meditation.

I believe that negative and/or positive can come from meditation and I think it entirely depends on the INDIVIDUAL who is meditating...where their hearts and minds are when they meditate and what they are hoping to accomplish via meditation.

I can't speak on behalf of others but when I meditate, I am so incredibly OPEN...mentally and spiritually.

I don't doubt at all that it's possible for someone who wasn't seeking light and goodness and peace to experience entirely different effects from meditation.

Although I feel at peace when I meditate...that's what I'm seeking...peace. There's this mental and spiritual vulnerability that occurs when I meditate and I imagine if I didn't have a focus...I would be opening myself up to somethig negative...if my heart and mind wasn't focused on light and peace. I know that when I meditate, I am spiritually and mentally open to receive.

If you want to take it to a dark place...you can. If you're not spiritually secure and vulnerable prior to opening your mind and soul while medidating...I'm sure it's totally possibly to open yourself up to negatives...whatever form "negative" takes.

 

[Runt]

I have trouble thinking of ways in which meditation is a bad thing. Actually, that's not true. I remember my Classics of Asian Religions teacher talking once about a Zen Buddhist who was so into meditation that he didn't want to stop. He would get tired, and his eyes would droop, and so he pulled them off. Now, I'm hoping that this is just a myth (please oh please let it be just a myth!) but you never know... However, I think the point--for me at least--of that story is that being fanatical about meditation can be a risky business.

 

[ChrisP]

I hear what you are saying Dawn, but in all my inner adventures I have never encountered anything that resembles what you are describing. Granted, I have only been at it for 30+ years, so I still have much to learn. I am curious, if anyone else gives support to this notion of "darkness".

Thoughts?

I'd like to support what dawny said, but given the fact that I'm a complete newbie at meditating in general... I'll PM ya Ymir.

 

[Scarlett Wampus]

Oh, great thread!

I hear what you are saying Dawn, but in all my inner adventures I have never encountered anything that resembles what you are describing. Granted, I have only been at it for 30+ years, so I still have much to learn. I am curious, if anyone else gives support to this notion of "darkness".

I've not come across someone who felt that meditating had allowed some malevolent force to prey on them, unless it was something to do with a dodgy relationship with a Guru or similar and for sure there are plenty of disgruntled ex-spiritual-groupies There a couple of things I can think of that seem somewhat related too: -

1) Meditation can (but not always) erode psychological defences making someone more sensitive. So, if there are terrible things happening (mostly within), meditation may open them to that, and thats not always a helpful thing.

2) It is possible, albeit very very unusual, to meditate for nefarious means. Increased concentration and awareness can be useful in all sorts of ways. Generally speaking meditation has a benevolent influence, but if you're really determined to do something 'bad', then meditation might be one of the tools you could use.