Risks with meditation?

[PureX]

If you want to take it to a dark place...you can. If you're not spiritually secure and vulnerable prior to opening your mind and soul while meditating...I'm sure it's totally possibly to open yourself up to negatives...whatever form "negative" takes.

I think it depends on what's already inside us. I don't believe that there's any particular "darkness" external to us, that if we become vulnerable, could somehow invade our spirits. I think the "darkness" we experience is the result of spiritually toxic experiences from our own past that have not been properly dealt with and let go of, and so are still bottled up in our own hearts and minds. It's these that have a tendency to surface and overwhelm us when we first begin to try various kinds of meditation.

In attempting to clear our minds, we become aware of these toxic memories and emotional injuries lurking in the dark corners of our memories. It's sort of like cleaning a house and discovering forgotten artifacts from our past lurking in the closets and under the bed. And if we have been living a lifestyle of denial, there may be a huge pile of these hidden and painful "artifacts" lurking within us, which can overwhelm us when we weren't expecting them to be there.

There's a very old spiritual book (centuries old) called, "Dark Night of the Soul" by someone named "Saint John of the Cross" (I think) which details the experiences of novice monks when they first enter the monastery. I think it's describing a similar kind of experience brought on by the practice of silence, and prayer, and similar meditative activities engaged in in medieval Christian monasteries. It seems that when we begin such meditative practices, we also begin to strip away our habit of self-distraction, and soon find ourselves face to face with who we really are and why we are who we are. Often this is a frightening and shocking experience for people, especially if they have been in the habit of avoiding and denying bad feelings, experiences, and behaviors in their life.

But Saint John of the Cross goes on to explain that it's in confronting and experiencing the darkness of our hidden human (and "fallen") selves that we become able to recognize the light of God's love, forgiveness, and peace, and recognize, too, our need and longing for it. It's been many years since I read this book, but I remember it as a very powerful and poetic illumination of how in seeking God, we are forced to confront ourselves, and if we can withstand the experience, we can be "cleansed" of ourselves and find that "divine peace" that God has promised us. It struck me even at the time to be very similar to a description of eastern, even taoist ideas, though expressed in very religious Christian words and images.

At some point I think the truth overcomes the categories and labels we try to assign to it, including even religion and philosophy.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

1) Meditation can (but not always) erode psychological defences making someone more sensitive. So, if there are terrible things happening (mostly within), meditation may open them to that, and thats not always a helpful thing.

2) It is possible, albeit very very unusual, to meditate for nefarious means. Increased concentration and awareness can be useful in all sorts of ways. Generally speaking meditation has a benevolent influence, but if you're really determined to do something 'bad', then meditation might be one of the tools you could use.

Wonderful points, SW. I have heard briefly of the kinds of barriers some people face when beginning to meditate (especially in point #1). PureX also described the experiences of novice monks when beginning serious prayer and contemplation.



There have been moments when, myself, I have been overwhelmed with the glimpse at my own true nature and the nature of others. I am referring to my own tradition and dharma that teaches that this "true nature" is buddha-nature, of course, but I am fine with others defining that "true nature" in other means. For example, there had been times when during vipassana meditation, I have felt compelled to stop because of the sheer, all-encompassing, unity of everything I'd felt. It wasn't soft and comfy like an old blanket..........it was a frightening, fantastic, mind-explosion that made my human psyche feel threatened. My ego, my sense of self, was hanging on for dear life in the face of oneness with my greatest friends and my worst enemies.




With better practice of the other parts of the dharma, and with better connection to others in our sang'ha, I found myself able to let go and accept this reality of oneness and unity, of my own and others' buddha-nature. I am not sure, to this day, if meditation on it's own would have allowed me to release the ego. I need other, more concrete, means of practice in addition to meditation. The practices of the Five Precepts, studying and applying the Eightfold Path, etc. help me to crystallize all that is experienced during meditation, and vice versa. I am able to release the ego in my meditations much more easily when I practice the dharma daily and treat others with kindness and compassion.




I truly appreciate everything y'all have to say. I'm learning much.





Peace,
Mystic

 

[michel]

What an extraordinary post PureX. I'll give you more frubals for it when I can. :bow:


You touch on so many areas, that I don't know what else I can add, except perhaps my own perspective.

Visualisation: Like so many, I have a rather vivid imagination. I tend to think in images, rather than just words. I will often start with one clear image, mosey around it for a bit (much like walking around a house, say for a prospective home buyer), and that image will, in turn, generate a new image. The thought process is certainly involved, but it is more in response to the images I conjure up. I have begun to refer to this as active imaging and it is a form of meditation & contemplation combined. I guess it also satisfies my own creative impulses as well, at least in some respects.

Writing: I have a distinct tendency to be a "stream of consciousness" writer. I get my little image of what I want to say, and from there, it is simply a case of matching the words to the intent. Drop dead simple, reallly. I suspect that I am tapping into my subconscious areas BY imaging a given thing. The conscious mind simply cavorts about, like an excited child, translating the intent into words. I don't mean to say that I don't think in ordinary terms, as that is hardly the case. It might be accurate to desribe my thinking as non-linear however.

I can't say that I ever do "automatic writing", although much of what I write is off the top of my head, especially forum posts. For me, writing is certainly a form of "contemplation", as I work out what I want to say, as I am saying it. As I am usually writing from a subjective standpoint, it is not a huge reach. I often feel, simply writing my thoughts to be immensely satisfying in a way that is quite difficult to describe. It is also a meditation, as I will often sit with my eyes closed, clearing my mind of superficial junk and zeroing in on my intent. That would seem to be the point of meditation, in some respects.

Walking: While walking, I tend to extend my perceptions all around me and I do not mean that in the convention sense. Sound is my guide and I use sounds to draw my attention, often in many directions at the same time. It is hard to describe. During this, I generally quiet the thought process (after awhile that is child's play), if not stop it entirely, so that I am a silent observer. How to put it.
The sounds draws your awareness and you ought to be able to feel aspects of those sounds and the resulting expansion of consciousness. By not thinking about it, and simply listening to everything around you, you soon discover that you can consciously follow several sounds at once. It is like listening to a piece of music, only the song is the song of physical reality. Sounds lofty... but I assure you it is relatively simple, if you can manange to turn off the "internal dialogue" and simply listen. The proof of the pudding, is in the eating. If you have not tried this, I heartily recommend it. In no time you will be grinning like a proverbial Cheshire cat.

So yes, I would agree, there are many forms of meditation. I also agree that many folks assume that meditation is a relatively boring act, done whilst sitting alone in a darkened room, peering into the back of your forehead. Though that is an essential aspect, at least at first, it is by no means, the only way to "do it".

The last thought I have for now, is that after considerable years in meditation one begins to consider that there is no division between active meditation and going about daily life. In some ways, life itself becomes a meditation.

I have tried automatic writing, but nothing came from it; maybe I was going about it the wrong way.

I aggree with the visualization element, of meditation, which (to me) is very important. I have various "well trodden paths" I use, and they aare all great each for their specific use.

As concerns coming across something 'nasty', I must admit that I have never done so either; maybe that is just good luck, but I think it is more what you are looking for that comes up.

Most of the time, I start with relaxation excercises for every part of the body (ie tense up parts of the body then release), and then I 'go for a mental walk' through a well trodden path in a field, into a wooded area, wher I can hear the water rippling through a stream. I really do hear the water. There is also a lovely pool in a clearing, and immering myself in the pool is really quite wonderful.

That is what I call the 'preparation meditation'. From there, I can go up to a castle in the sky in which there are vast corridors lined with mirrors; I am covered with many layers of blankets, and get rid of them, one at a time; basically, it's like peeling an onion (and that is the idea) - to find what is there at the core. The last mirror is one in which I will look, and it projects how and what I am doing at the time (I can actually see myself on Earth, and watch a snippet of my behaviour. To my regret, most of the time the one thing that strikes me is that I am rushing about, like a headless chicken, achieving little (which is probably quite fair).

There is the past life meditation that I love, in which I can see loved ones whilst standing on a bridge, waiting for me to 'come home'; we all know it won't be just yet, but it is nice to have a hug and greet each other; the faces are not ones I recognise, but I know I love all these people, and look forward to being across the bridge with them again.

As far as I am concerned, the idea of the peeling layers off an onion just about describes meditation for what it is, to get to that 'core' which is the real me deep inside. I think there is no darkness because I don't want there to be any darkness; that may sound simplistic, but it is the way I see it; the only sensation I feel during meditation is warmth and Love................

I have trouble thinking of ways in which meditation is a bad thing. Actually, that's not true. I remember my Classics of Asian Religions teacher talking once about a Zen Buddhist who was so into meditation that he didn't want to stop. He would get tired, and his eyes would droop, and so he pulled them off. Now, I'm hoping that this is just a myth (please oh please let it be just a myth!) but you never know... However, I think the point--for me at least--of that story is that being fanatical about meditation can be a risky business.

I think you said it yourself there, Runt; I believe that being fanatical about anything is not good for you. I think that story you tell is a myth - but one with a message, in that isf you are determined to see something, your eyes become useless.

Maybe I am wrong, but there is, as far as I am concerned, a great element of 'going with the flow'; forcing an issue doesn't work for me.

Oh, great thread!


I've not come across someone who felt that meditating had allowed some malevolent force to prey on them, unless it was something to do with a dodgy relationship with a Guru or similar and for sure there are plenty of disgruntled ex-spiritual-groupies There a couple of things I can think of that seem somewhat related too: -

1) Meditation can (but not always) erode psychological defences making someone more sensitive. So, if there are terrible things happening (mostly within), meditation may open them to that, and thats not always a helpful thing.

2) It is possible, albeit very very unusual, to meditate for nefarious means. Increased concentration and awareness can be useful in all sorts of ways. Generally speaking meditation has a benevolent influence, but if you're really determined to do something 'bad', then meditation might be one of the tools you could use.

I think your 2nd point puts the whole subject of free will and the motive into perspective. Just as there is no white nor Black magician (if indeed there are 'magicians' at all), the good or bad in them is their motive at the time of the deed, and what they want to achieve by their action.

As far as I am concerned, praying for someone may as well be called "casting a good spell" if that is how you chose to word it..............

 

[DakotaGypsy]

Writing meditation?

Would that be automatic writing? Which refers to writing that is done in an altered state of consciousness that is attributed to spirits of the dead. It is believed by some that the spirits literally manipulate the writing utensil in the hands of the medium to communicate, as the writer is often unaware of what is being written and often even scrawls out text in handwriting that is markedly different than his own.

http://www.prairieghosts.com/auto_writing.html

It is supposed to be a sort of "channeling" and many religious traditions are opposed to this sort of thing. I think that Christians object to it on the basis that one may be possessed by a demon, etc., and so forth.

Buddhists, I think, would object to it on the basis that one is supposed to focus on what is within oneself and urge that beingness onto better understanding, and in regard to the idea of "possession" by other entities, especially by demons, many Buddhists feel that demons are inferior to humans in intelligence and intent and should be subjugated by humans. At any rate, one hopes that humans are superior to demons in intelligence and intent.

 

[messianicmystic]

Let me begin by saying that I know little to nothing about Far Eastern or medical meditation, but I have recently begun studying Jewish meditation, which has historically been very esoteric, at least in most circles, precisely because of the dangers involved. Therefore, comments regarding meditation in Jewish sources are not as well known or understood as in Far Eastern literature. I have just finished a few books on the subject by an accomplished Orthodox rabbi named Aryeh Kaplan, who was also a noted physicist.

I point out that he was a noted physicist for the sake of those who are skeptical of the spiritual realm. Please, do not simply dismiss what I am about to say. Definitely question it, but please, do not simply dismiss it. This may only be my opinion, but it seems to me that string theory, particularly its reliance on the existence of other dimensions, provides a framework in which talk of a spiritual realm can no longer be labeled unscientific. For those who don't know what string theory is, I highly recommend the book "The Elegant Universe".

In his books on Jewish meditation, Kaplan is careful to point out the dangers, these being primarily the possibility of becoming insane or unintentionally experiencing what is referred to as "the other side". Regarding the whole science versus religion debate, which to me is a false dichotomy, I would like to point out that, in conversations with people who do not share our point of view, very often we are talking about the same thing and simply wording it differently. As I believe the fox in "The Little Prince" says, "Language is the source of misunderstanding." This truth is encapsulated precisely in the biblical account regarding the "confusion of tongues". Whether or not you believe this actually happened, I hope you see what it conveys. In Judaism, it is said that a rabbi, who often told stories to his disciples to make a point, was once asked, by one of those disciples, if all of his stories were true. The rabbi's reply was that not all of his stories actually happened, but all of his stories were true. I digress from the question at hand, but hopefully it is understood that truth and fact are not necessarily the same thing. With the effect of language considered, perhaps, becoming insane and experiencing the other side are, on the other hand, not necessarily two different things.

Regarding the danger(s) of meditation, Kaplan cites in several places the opinions of Talmudic and Medieval scholars and sages, most of which are practioners and supporters of meditation, rather than its opponents. As I said before, it is probably because of this realization, that Jewish meditation has and, to a great degree, does remain an esoteric discipline. While I have only begun to study and experiment with meditation on a very surface level, I have since had a dream, in which I would describe the feeling I had towards the end, as both going insane and experiencing the other side. I have also at one point felt harassed by the other side during prayer.

I recently watched a movie, based on an actual failed exorcim, called "The Exorcism of Emily Rose". In the movie, the priest who conducted the exorcism is put on trial, and at one point the defense calls, as a witness, an anthropologist who is an expert in the field of possession. Her comments are very helpful in this discussion, as she says that the people who are most likely to become possessed (aka lose their sanity/experience the other side) are those most sensitive to the spiritual realm (aka the extra dimensions of string theory). Basically, looking into the spiritual realm is like looking at a picture. Unless you prepare you eyes before hand and have a specific focus, they will be open to the entire picture and may see things that you weren't intending to see. Furthermore, the anthropologist suggests that the reason the exorcism failed is that the drugs prescribed to combat what was considered epilepsy with psychosis (aka loss of sanity/possession/experience of the other side) instead made the victim's connection to the other side permanent. This is not an unscientific statement, in light of the fact that our minds process the spiritual (aka thoughts/emotions) and the physical (aka sight/sound/smell/taste/touch) by means of chemical and electrical (aka soul/chi) reactions.

All in all, I believe meditation is a very serious and potentially dangerous thing that should be undertaken with great care and preparation. There are indeed different levels and types of meditation and shortcuts should not be taken to reach the higher levels. One example, of a shortcut relating to the anthropologist's comments is that of taking drugs. When you take drugs, you give up control of your mind, and control of your mind is a prerequisite to safe meditation. Nonetheless, drugs are not the only shortcut we sometimes take. We would all do well to remember the proverbial saying that "Fools rush in."

 

[Runt]

think you said it yourself there, Runt; I believe that being fanatical about anything is not good for you. I think that story you tell is a myth - but one with a message, in that isf you are determined to see something, your eyes become useless.

Maybe I am wrong, but there is, as far as I am concerned, a great element of 'going with the flow'; forcing an issue doesn't work for me.

"In the pursuit of the Way, the prime essential is sitting (zazen) ... By reflecting upon various "public cases" (koan) and dialogues of the patriarches, one may perhaps get the sense of them but it will only result in one's being led astray from the way of the Buddha, our founder. Just to pass the time in sitting straight, without any thought-of-acquisition, without any sense of achieving enlightenment--this is the way of the Founder." -- Dogen, Shobogenzo Zuimonki

 

[ΩRôghênΩ]

i dont completely believe in these burning fires. but i have tried deep christian esoteric meditation. sometimes long meditation cAN HAVE A STRANGE LATING EFFECT WHICH MAKES YOU FEEL DISOCIATED FROM the deepening in the mind

 

[MysticSang'ha]

i dont completely believe in these burning fires. but i have tried deep christian esoteric meditation. sometimes long meditation cAN HAVE A STRANGE LATING EFFECT WHICH MAKES YOU FEEL DISOCIATED FROM the deepening in the mind

How do you mean, LR? Can you embellish on this?





Peace,
Mystic

 

[ΩRôghênΩ]

yes, and sorry from the caps. its my own personal experience. whenever your in a strange concious state for a long time, sitting still and concentrating, aftyer getting up you can become dizzy because your mind leaves the state so quickly.

 

[dawny0826]

I hear what you are saying Dawn, but in all my inner adventures I have never encountered anything that resembles what you are describing. Granted, I have only been at it for 30+ years, so I still have much to learn. I am curious, if anyone else gives support to this notion of "darkness".

Thoughts?

Truthfully, I hadn't even read your post when I responded.

I can only speak on behalf of myself.

And I am continuously learning...

 

[Engyo]

Hiya dude. What you are describing is incorrect meditation technique.
Meditation should be done in three distinct phases, perhaps 4 for hyperactive people.

1. Excercise to relieve physical stress and dissipate surplus energy. Not too strenuous, but enough to "mellow you out".
2. Entry phase... roughly a 5 minute period, unwinding or getting into a proper "headspace". Calming the thought process and relaxing the body yet further.
3. The main meditation phase (approx. 20 - 30 minutes, on average)
4. Re-entry, or "grounding".

Step 4 is perhaps the most important phase. 5 - 10 minutes should be taken to come out of meditation. If one simply bounds up and gets into physical activity, without skipping a beat, it can have adverse effects.

I often use this time to open my eyes, and close them again... until I am fully readjusted. For example: eyes open - 1 minute; eyes closed - 1 minute; eyes open 2 min; eyes closed - 1 minute until you have no difficulty keeping your eyes open. During this period, I will slowly begin wiggling my limbs and "bringing them back to life". Stretching is also a good thing to do. DO NOT just stand up, and make a massive stretch, as you could well pass out. The key is slow, thorough, "re-entry". I often will have a light snack of juice, crackers and cheese, or some fruit pre-prepared and waiting. I also like to listen to quiet, light music like Mozart or some other light instumental music. So, for me at least, a single 30 minute meditation actually consumes closer to an hour altogether.

What does everyone else do?

Ymir -

Interesting - this is similar to what we do with an intense preiod of mantra recitation. We begin with prostration and some prayers and readings. Then there is a short period of silent sitting meditation as preparation (purifying the mind and body). Then we begin mantra recitation - very slowly at first, with the tempo increasing very gradually, until after 20 minutes or so we are reciting a fast as one can and still be pronouncing it properly. Then the tempo begins to return to it's original pace; it slows more rapidly than it increased, until by the end of 30 minutes we are back almost to the original tempo, and we stop. Then there is another short period of silent sitting, to soak in the energy and ground it. We close with a final prayer and another prostration. The prayers and prostrations help to first accustom the body to stillnes, and then to reaccustom it to wakefulness and movement. If one were to stand up imediately upon the close of the sitting meditation, it would be easy to fall over from blood redistribution, as circulation is rerouted through the body.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Was that score on the Belief-o-Matic quiz offered through Beliefnet? I've taken that quiz, and saw that I am 100% pure Mahayana Buddhist.




I make it a point to practice hatha yoga before practicing sitting meditation. I also burn sage or sandalwood incense, and then make sure I have right motivation for doing my meditation.............I tend to be much more concentrated and steady when I have altruistic motivation and not self-centered motivation. I then think of a devotional message.



I start counting my breaths from one to ten (or sometimes twenty if my mind is jumpy), and then back to one again. My mind then is stilled, and I can continue to deepen the meditation. It's important that I know exactly what I am doing before doing these practices, and not simply sitting and "waiting for something to happen."




I set a timer in order to ensure that I don't spend too much time in meditation (I probably could spend most of the day in that state of mind), and 20 minutes is quite good for me. Once the timer goes off, I think of the gratitude I feel for the time to have done the meditation, and then I repeat the devotional message. I then slowly stretch my arms and legs to acclimate back into this world and do some tense-and-release movements of my body, too. Sometimes, I'll return to a few gentle yoga balances to further acclimate.



Doing a few leg squats also really helps, too, to transition out of the meditative state.




I usually find that I can't eat anything before or after meditation, and so I refrain from eating around my meditation times. I'll drink some tea, but that's about it. There have been a few times where I could eat a peach or an apple, but nothing heavy.





That's the jist of the sitting meditations that I do, which make up the majority of my meditation practices.





Peace,
Mystic