Ritual or Myth?

[Sunstone]

I recently heard someone advance the notion that religion has its origins hundreds of thousands of years ago in -- not myth -- but ritual. That is, he was persuaded that ritual is the earliest form of religion. This seems to run counter to what most of us have been told, for I think most of us have been told that religion starts with myths.

Just offhand, do you find it at all plausible that ritual might be the origin of religion? IF so, why? If not, why not?

Please note: The person who I heard advance the notion that religion has its origins in ritual, rather than myth, didn't go on to present his reasons for it. Alas! The conversation was too brief for that. So I'm unable to give his reasons here.

 

[Ouroboros]

I recently heard someone advance the notion that religion has its origins hundreds of thousands of years ago in -- not myth -- but ritual. That is, he was persuaded that ritual is the earliest form of religion. This seems to run counter to what most of us have been told, for I think most of us have been told that religion starts with myths.

I rather think that it starts with symbols. Rituals, myths, stories, all are symbolic references. It starts with language, or perhaps on a lower level of communication even. Body language, pictures, ideas, flowers at a funeral, trinkets, jewelry. And all that started from tools, the stone ax, sticks, and implicitly food and survival, birth, death, etc. It all connects through being, doing, communicating, and staying in a group for survival. I think that started earlier than "hmm, trying to figure out how these things work, why does the tree move in the wind, and what makes the wind, and why is the moon changing?" And so forth. It started with language (IMO).

 

[outhouse]

I recently heard someone advance the notion that religion has its origins hundreds of thousands of years ago in -- not myth -- but ritual. That is, he was persuaded that ritual is the earliest form of religion. This seems to run counter to what most of us have been told, for I think most of us have been told that religion starts with myths.

Just offhand, do you find it at all plausible that ritual might be the origin of religion? IF so, why? If not, why not?

Please note: The person who I heard advance the notion that religion has its origins in ritual, rather than myth, didn't go on to present his reasons for it. Alas! The conversation was too brief for that. So I'm unable to give his reasons here.

Id have to go with both. Its human nature.

Creatures of habit.

I dont think one can really place one before the other.

 

[Willamena]

Myth and ritual are not exclusive. Myth supplies the symbol, the imagry, and ritual enacts it and assures its actuality.

From Joseph Campbell, Myths to Live By:

...it is the rite, the ritual and its imagry, that counts in religion, and where that is missing the words are mere carriers of concepts that may or may not make contemporary sense. A ritual is an organization of mythological symbols; and by participating in the drama of the rite one is brought directly in touch with these, not as verbal reports of historic events, either past, present, or to be, but as revelations, here and now, of what is always and forever. Where [modern] synagogues and churches go wrong is by telling what their symbols "mean." The value of an effective rite is that it leaves everyone to his own thoughts, which dogma and definitions only confuse...

You don't ask what a dance means, you enjoy it.

 

[LuisDantas]

Just offhand, do you find it at all plausible that ritual might be the origin of religion? IF so, why? If not, why not?

Oh yes. Ritual is a powerful source of commitment and sense of common purpose. It is also easy to create and to take part in and demands little doctrinary justification.

Your friend probably is on to something. He might want to study a bit of Shinto, if he did not already.

 

[Quintessence]

Speaking in generalities, Pagan religions always did emphasize ritual and practices over mythos and belief. Given the first forms of religion were all Pagan, it seems a great deal more logical for ritual and practice to predate mythos and belief. I'm patently unsurprised by this person's comment and find it to be a rather common sense observation. But what "most of us have been told" comes from the lens of Abrahamic monotheisms, which are religions known for their emphasis on beliefs, dogma, and mythos rather than ritual and practice.

 

[Levite]

I recently heard someone advance the notion that religion has its origins hundreds of thousands of years ago in -- not myth -- but ritual. That is, he was persuaded that ritual is the earliest form of religion. This seems to run counter to what most of us have been told, for I think most of us have been told that religion starts with myths.

Just offhand, do you find it at all plausible that ritual might be the origin of religion? IF so, why? If not, why not?

Please note: The person who I heard advance the notion that religion has its origins in ritual, rather than myth, didn't go on to present his reasons for it. Alas! The conversation was too brief for that. So I'm unable to give his reasons here.

I tend to think that the development of myth and ritual go hand in hand-- it's not really a which-came-first question, to my mind.

I think religion comes out of three basic places, all of which are key, and none of which predominate or precede the others: first, a desire to make order out of chaos (whether that is in trying to find ways to understand natural phenomena, or ways to make meaning from natural phenomena); second, a desire to make meaning in our lives; and third, a desire to touch the numinous.

And I think that in our desire to do these things-- each and every day-- we make rituals, we create myths, and we reach out spiritually to ourselves, to others, to the world around us, and to what lies beyond it. And in doing these things, we create religion, we create philosophies, we sharpen our souls and our reason, since out of these primal desires also grows the uttermost ancient root of science, too.

 

[Ingledsva]

Myth and ritual are not exclusive. Myth supplies the symbol, the imagry, and ritual enacts it and assures its actuality.

From Joseph Campbell, Myths to Live By:

Loved that man's lectures and books.

 

[outhouse]

Lets look at what we have to work with for ancient religion. our oldest artifacts are the Venus figurines.

They would have possibly been both, ritualistic objects that carried mythology, as most fertility objects have. With more then 40% mortality rate for children under 5, these were very powerful objects.

 

[Thief]

Are we digressing all the way to primitive Man?

Seems to me ritual has been around longer than history.
What we have here is opportunity to speculate....and no assuredness can be rendered.

I say, Man is a creature that responds.
He might respond badly, with little good sense....but he will respond.

On some occasion an event beyond control overruns the immediate scene.
Seeing something greater than himself.....response is made.
If by coincidence some relief is found....the appeasement....'worked'.

Choose your scenario at whim.
Choose your ritual as you please.
Our ancestors did.

As for me, I don't believe in ritual or myth.
But I do believe in the Almighty.

 

[Orias]

I recently heard someone advance the notion that religion has its origins hundreds of thousands of years ago in -- not myth -- but ritual. That is, he was persuaded that ritual is the earliest form of religion. This seems to run counter to what most of us have been told, for I think most of us have been told that religion starts with myths.

Just offhand, do you find it at all plausible that ritual might be the origin of religion? IF so, why? If not, why not?

Please note: The person who I heard advance the notion that religion has its origins in ritual, rather than myth, didn't go on to present his reasons for it. Alas! The conversation was too brief for that. So I'm unable to give his reasons here.

I wouldn't doubt if the earliest religions (like all religions) had a ritual, but I wouldn't say thats what birthed religion. Though nor would I say that religion was inspired or motivated by myth either, just our deepest and perhaps most carnal thoughts.

That can be anything though.

 

[Looncall]

I wouldn't doubt if the earliest religions (like all religions) had a ritual, but I wouldn't say thats what birthed religion. Though nor would I say that religion was inspired or motivated by myth either, just our deepest and perhaps most carnal thoughts.

That can be anything though.

I am reminded of Skinner's experiments with superstition in pigeons. If they were rewarded randomly, they would repeat what they had done just before the reward, hoping for another reward.

I think it is reasonable to expect something similar in people who lacked understanding of the workings of nature. Hence, ritual. The impressive-sounding theology would be tacked on later.

 

[Desert Snake]

Both. Looking at modern religions for ease of comparison, we can see that Orthodox Judaism is more 'ritualistic' than say Lutheranism, but both religions contain ritual and belief, (or "myth" in this case), so, which takes priority? They both require the ritualism, if one doesn't adhere to the rituals and 'myth' of said relgions they are not considered to be properly following that religion.

So, as to which came 'first', it probably just depends on the culture and said religions, but in practice it's both.

 

[Caladan]

I do believe there is a case to be made that ritual predates myth.
If we take a look at some of the more social animals, like elephants for example, we can see ritual behaviour, for example in the passing of a member of the group.
The recent attention to the Turkish archaeological site of Göbekli Tepe is creating theories which turn accepted paradigms of religion and society on their heads.
If until now researchers adhered to the paradigm of agriculture giving birth to social organization and religion, now there are scholars who discuss religion as the catalyst for social organization and agriculture. It seems that the prime mover for the Neolithic transition is on trial here.
If the theories surrounding Göbekli Tepe have merit in them, then community rituals are at the centre of our social development. The interesting question is of course found at the very title of the thread, were myths developed the accompany rituals?

 

[Windwalker]

I think all these responses speak to what I see to the origins of religion. I do not believe it was as those like Ayn Rand made popular that it was about trying to explain the natural world, aka "myth", in her limited thinking.

Rituals became part of the practices naturally, as someone referenced Skinner's behaviorism. Myth became a much later structure of consciousness that developed in humans and thoughts about the world, these symbols embedded in the rituals moved out of the objects to an external controlling force. Earliest forms of religion were magic, then later mythic. The evolving structures of human consciousness move into their rituals, and the meanings of them evolve into these structures. And it keeps going to the rational structures much later, than the transrational structures (which I believe in the current leading edge).

I tend to see the expressions of religious impulse to be tied to the evolving structures of consciousness. You can reference Jean Gebser's stages of archaic, magic, mythic, and integral here: AN OVERVIEW OF THE WORK OF JEAN GEBSER

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Myth supplies the symbol, the imagry, and ritual enacts it and assures its actuality.

This strikes me as hindsight.

Religion is an attempt to sketch a coherent landscape of place, purpose, and etiology. Ritual is the evolved guidelines for navigating that terrain.

 

[painted wolf]

I think it's quite possible.

We have clear evidence for ritual dating back to before the advent of the human species... and it's almost certain that symbolic thought evolved before language (and thus before myth). Experiments show that non-linguistic species are capable of surprising degrees of symbolic thought and our own material and fossil history supports our gaining symbolic thought prior to symbolic language or complex language in general.

Add to that the fact that ritualized behavior (even culturally determined ritualized behavior) is quite common among animals... and few would argue that they possess "mythology"... and it becomes a pretty reasonable conclusion.

One can also have myth without ritual ... but myth requires symbolic language.

Ritual clearly predates myth... but once you have both they feed off each other in a synergistic manner. At what point ritual became religious remains to be (and likely will never be) determined.

wa:do

 

[Iti oj]

Speaking in generalities, Pagan religions always did emphasize ritual and practices over mythos and belief. Given the first forms of religion were all Pagan, it seems a great deal more logical for ritual and practice to predate mythos and belief. I'm patently unsurprised by this person's comment and find it to be a rather common sense observation. But what "most of us have been told" comes from the lens of Abrahamic monotheisms, which are religions known for their emphasis on beliefs, dogma, and mythos rather than ritual and practice.

This. Though where myth ends and ritual begins who knows. Symbolism trumps all

 

[painted wolf]

I am reminded of Skinner's experiments with superstition in pigeons. If they were rewarded randomly, they would repeat what they had done just before the reward, hoping for another reward.

I think it is reasonable to expect something similar in people who lacked understanding of the workings of nature. Hence, ritual. The impressive-sounding theology would be tacked on later.

I'm not sure anticipatory behavior can be linked with superstition or ritual...

IMHO it's more a function of learning and experimentation.

Then again, I haven't read the study you mention, so maybe I'm missing something.

wa:do

 

[Looncall]

I'm not sure anticipatory behavior can be linked with superstition or ritual...

IMHO it's more a function of learning and experimentation.

Then again, I haven't read the study you mention, so maybe I'm missing something.

wa:do

I have not read the study, I've only seen it described. I would like to read it. I gather the point was that, since the reward was given at random intervals, learning was not possible, but the pigeons tried to apply learning anyway.

This sounds to me rather like rituals such as rain dances that could not possibly affect the weather but could have arisen when someone's dance got rained on.