Ritual or Myth?

[outhouse]

Does anyone think rituals were preformed quietly? Or were there stories about the rituals origins.

 

[Sunstone]

I'm not sure anticipatory behavior can be linked with superstition or ritual...

IMHO it's more a function of learning and experimentation.

Then again, I haven't read the study you mention, so maybe I'm missing something.

wa:do

Over time, the birds adopted a set of behaviors that seemed to Skinner very much like rituals. For instance, a bird would raise one leg, look to the right, do a hop and then press the lever. It would repeat that same behavior time and again before pressing the lever for food. Interesting study. Read about it in psyche class some 120 years ago, when I was young.

 

[Thief]

Over time, the birds adopted a set of behaviors that seemed to Skinner very much like rituals. For instance, a bird would raise one leg, look to the right, do a hop and then press the lever. It would repeat that same behavior time and again before pressing the lever for food. Interesting study. Read about it in psyche class some 120 years ago, when I was young.

Digression...
but I like the one of a pet raven that would steal his master's wallet.

The bird would wait for the owner to leave....loose the pin on the cage....
peck and lift the wallet out of the guys jacket....
and return to cage...resetting the pin.

The mystery wasn't solved until a camera was set up.

 

[Sunstone]

Digression...
but I like the one of a pet raven that would steal his master's wallet.

The bird would wait for the owner to leave....loose the pin on the cage....
peck and lift the wallet out of the guys jacket....
and return to cage...resetting the pin.

The mystery wasn't solved until a camera was set up.

Interesting! Well worth the digression. Thanks!

 

[painted wolf]

I have not read the study, I've only seen it described. I would like to read it. I gather the point was that, since the reward was given at random intervals, learning was not possible, but the pigeons tried to apply learning anyway.

This sounds to me rather like rituals such as rain dances that could not possibly affect the weather but could have arisen when someone's dance got rained on.

Over time, the birds adopted a set of behaviors that seemed to Skinner very much like rituals. For instance, a bird would raise one leg, look to the right, do a hop and then press the lever. It would repeat that same behavior time and again before pressing the lever for food. Interesting study. Read about it in psyche class some 120 years ago, when I was young.

Very interesting... I guess I have to look this up now. Just what I need, more reading material.

wa:do

 

[1137]

I would assume that symbolism and / or myth is the birth of religion. People come up with stories to explain what they do not understand, and this is where Gods come from. It fits since older religions believed in Gods for almost everything that happened in the world around them, and they based the attributes and symbols for these Gods on events they saw in the natural world. How can you have ritual before you have myth? If you do not believe in Gods, and afterlife, etc then what would have been the point to doing rituals?

 

[Windwalker]

How can you have ritual before you have myth? If you do not believe in Gods, and afterlife, etc then what would have been the point to doing rituals?

What are the points of the rituals we do daily which have nothing to do with belief in God? Religious rituals just happen to be taking rituals and applying them to religious practice. Are we to believe that once you believe in God, you suddenly develop rituals as a result?

 

[Caladan]

I would assume that symbolism and / or myth is the birth of religion. People come up with stories to explain what they do not understand, and this is where Gods come from. It fits since older religions believed in Gods for almost everything that happened in the world around them, and they based the attributes and symbols for these Gods on events they saw in the natural world. How can you have ritual before you have myth? If you do not believe in Gods, and afterlife, etc then what would have been the point to doing rituals?

If you talk to three absinthe enthusiasts, you might get 3 different rituals of how to prepare and drink it. The college guy is convinced that you take absinthe in a shot, the Hollywood inspired person is convinced that you have to set the drink alight and caramelize it, and the experienced drinker will have none of that and would prepare his drink by slowly creating an opaque louche by dripping ice cold water on a dose of absinthe.
People do little rituals everyday, and they do it without mythological lore or gods overseeing the right way to peel an orange, the right way to drink whiskey, or the right way to drown a tequila. Sometimes rituals work on psychologically mundane situations in our lives, we do them to feel relaxed, or to prepare the right atmosphere for a certain action, or simply because to us it is the only right way to do something.
Humans have expressed themselves in a collective way in order to bond with themselves or their environment, and not necessarily only in order to celebrate their mythical narratives. It's possible that many myths were created around ritual behaviour.

 

[1137]

Those are solid points. I had assumed that in this conversation the word ritual was specifically referring to religious rituals. But I would certainly say that once you believe in Gods you develop ritual. You "realize" that the world works the way it does due to supernatural entities, and you're going to want to avoid making those entities angry with you. I do not see how religious ritual, back then, would have developed before belief in deities.

 

[Thief]

So the cart in front of the donkey?.....I think not.

That Man is a creature able and wiling to consider his situation and mortality.....
does not mean God is a creation of Man.

It might take many generations to find the correct realization....
centuries could pass before Man realizes the extent of Greater Life....
but that doesn't mean God is a superstition.

Granted....God rarely makes an appearence.
God rarely responds to prayer.

And only the faithful assume His prescence at every ritual and recital.
( I have no such practice)

But I do believe in Greater Life and Hierarchy.
I am not given to ritual or recital.
I believe in God for cause and reason.

And yes I am a little disappointed in my fellowman.
By now such practice should have dropped away.

It's been written for centuries....
There are no works of the hand that justify before God.
Do not pray in repitition.....as do the heathens.
They assume their prayers are heard for the number of words.

God is not a creation made by Man.
The myth and practice are only sums of what men think they can do.....before God.

 

[outhouse]

Those are solid points. I had assumed that in this conversation the word ritual was specifically referring to religious rituals. But I would certainly say that once you believe in Gods you develop ritual. You "realize" that the world works the way it does due to supernatural entities, and you're going to want to avoid making those entities angry with you. I do not see how religious ritual, back then, would have developed before belief in deities.

My point

Were rituals done silently? If their lips were moving mythology was involved to explain away their ignorance of the natural world around them.

And in no time would this have been more accurate then before civlizations formed and people lived together where they could atleast have a collective knowledge.


the question factually cannot be answered one or the other.

 

[Reverend Richard]

I recently heard someone advance the notion that religion has its origins hundreds of thousands of years ago in -- not myth -- but ritual. That is, he was persuaded that ritual is the earliest form of religion. This seems to run counter to what most of us have been told, for I think most of us have been told that religion starts with myths.

On the face of it, it seem simple to arrive at some deduction based on what we have been taught (either correctly or incorrectly).

But I ask myself, what is a ritual?

In a religious context, isn't ritual a physical "acting out" of a thought, an idea, an emotion, or a "process". If it's a process, what's the process supposed to do? Either to invoke the good graces of a deity, or in the opposite case, to prevent a deity from raining down his or her wrath upon believers (or non-believers).

My point being, the "idea" of the ritual arose out of something else. So what was the something else? What was the prime cause of the ritual; was it the "myth" of appeasement?

 

[painted wolf]

My point

Were rituals done silently? If their lips were moving mythology was involved to explain away their ignorance of the natural world around them.

And in no time would this have been more accurate then before civlizations formed and people lived together where they could atleast have a collective knowledge.


the question factually cannot be answered one or the other.

Not always just ignorance... remember that we are pattern seeking creatures. We also are prone to conformation bias.
It is essentially faulty deduction.

Hunting big game is dangerous, a group of hunters will examine every hunt for clues on how to improve their chances.
If they notice that they seem to have a good hunt when one of them wears a "lucky" necklace or when the moon is full... then regardless of those things being actually helpful (or genuine) they will be noticed.
Thus a ritual is born not out of a religious need to explain the world, but out of the practical need to put food on the hearth. (and a heavy dose of observation)

Religious meanings can be attached later.

And no, we will never know for certain... but that doesn't mean that there aren't facts that point in one direction or the other.

wa:do

 

[1137]

I think the myths people created were genius. They had none of the information we have today and no way of getting it. What they believed was completely logical.

 

[arcanum]

One has to bear in mind that every ritual has a purpose behind it. So if we are talking about religious ritual than I would have to say the myth precedes the ritual. The ritual is a way of participating in the myth or belief system.

 

[outhouse]

Not always just ignorance... remember that we are pattern seeking creatures. We also are prone to conformation bias.
It is essentially faulty deduction.

Hunting big game is dangerous, a group of hunters will examine every hunt for clues on how to improve their chances.
If they notice that they seem to have a good hunt when one of them wears a "lucky" necklace or when the moon is full... then regardless of those things being actually helpful (or genuine) they will be noticed.
Thus a ritual is born not out of a religious need to explain the world, but out of the practical need to put food on the hearth. (and a heavy dose of observation)

Religious meanings can be attached later.

And no, we will never know for certain... but that doesn't mean that there aren't facts that point in one direction or the other.

wa:do

I think everyone should agree with this.

I uderstand my view was generalizing, and limited.


Its only my view the two go together, hand in hand. The only way you could say ritual first, would be in a 100% mute enviroment.

 

[painted wolf]

I think everyone should agree with this.

I uderstand my view was generalizing, and limited.


Its only my view the two go together, hand in hand. The only way you could say ritual first, would be in a 100% mute enviroment.

Mute or non-linguistic?

Unless you suggest that elephants have myths to go with their rituals.

wa:do

 

[painted wolf]

One has to bear in mind that every ritual has a purpose behind it. So if we are talking about religious ritual than I would have to say the myth precedes the ritual. The ritual is a way of participating in the myth or belief system.

Or perhaps myth was invented to justify ritual?

People needed a way to explain why their rituals seemed to work and justify their continuation. From that point, the two would reinforce each other.

wa:do

 

[Orias]

I am reminded of Skinner's experiments with superstition in pigeons. If they were rewarded randomly, they would repeat what they had done just before the reward, hoping for another reward.

I think it is reasonable to expect something similar in people who lacked understanding of the workings of nature. Hence, ritual. The impressive-sounding theology would be tacked on later.

Well I don't think it can be undermined that simply. People partake in a number of rituals each day without even knowing. The whole experience is centered around the psychodramatic effect, it is motivational as much as it is all about exercising one's own will.

Ritual is actually far from superstitious, because in the end its all about the psychodramatic effect and whatever the person is ultimately seeking.

 

[outhouse]

Mute or non-linguistic?

Unless you suggest that elephants have myths to go with their rituals.

wa:do

They are smarter then what we know. Who knows what they are thinking


We are vocal and social creatures, so im guessing there was something to be said for origins of rituals.

We naturally develop father figures and religious behaviour is almost instinctual.